The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of May 1st - May 7th, we are reading chapter 3 of SPQR: A History of Ancient Rome by Mary Beard.

The third week's reading assignment is:

WEEK THREE - May 1st - May 7th -> 3. The Kings of Rome (91-130)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off April 17th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Vicki

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Mary Beard

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also, the citation thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc. with proper citations or other books either non-fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self-promotion, please.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - Spoiler Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Link:

by Mary Beard

Everyone, for the week of May 1st - May 7th, we are reading Chapter 3.

The third week's reading assignment is:

WEEK THREE - May 1st - May 7th -> 3. The Kings of Rome (91-130)

Chapter Overview and Summary:

3. The Kings of Rome


Numa Pompilius, Second King of Rome

Tradition has it that Rome had seven kings, starting with Romulus. Each of them supposedly added something to the religious and political foundations of Rome. Although the monarchy was overthrown and replaced by the Republic, these foundations were kept and built upon.

Kings of Rome

Discussion Topics:

The regal period lasted from 753 BCE to 509 BCE with seven kings, for an average of 35 years per king.

1. Why was seven chosen, rather than, say, nine? Was there some numerological reason?

2. Beard doesn’t say much about the second king, Numa Pompilius, who was said to be a Sabine. Might there have been some other kings of Sabine origin that the tradition doesn’t account for?

3. How stunning must it have been to the 19th century historians to find evidence (the black stone) that there really were kings in Rome, when they had discounted the stories?

The Etruscan tomb painting at Vulci

Discussion Topics:

The Etruscan tomb paintings near Vulci are interesting, especially the one with named Roman and Etruscans.

1. How much influence did Etruscan culture have on Rome? Some Roman religious ceremonies are known to have come from Etruria.

2. Was Rome actually conquered by the Etruscans at some point? How else would they have had two Etruscan kings?

3. Was the story of the expulsion of the last king, and the refusal to ever allow kings in Rome again a way to deny further Etruscan influence on Rome?

This chapter and the last one are sort of hard to discuss, since all we really know are the myths. Please feel free to post any thoughts you have - they don't have to be related to the discussion topics.

In the book. Mary points out that our definition of King and what was going on back then are different. The "Kings" were more like Chiefs or Warlords and the "wars" were something closer to cattle raids.

Rome, at one point, seems to have come under Etruscan influence, but probably wasn't conquered in the traditional sense. Two chiefs seem to be Etruscan in origin, a couple of others seem to be Sabine. I think its whichever Chief had the upper hand at any time.

There were probably more that 7 Chiefs, but its interesting that it stops at 7. I do think that the expulsion of the last Chief was a way for Rome to step out of Etruscan influence and to declare their independence.

One of the interesting things about the Roman kings is that they were elected, and not hereditary. Today we tend to think of passing down the monarchy to blood relations. This may be another reason to think of them as "chiefs".

I like the idea that "seven" had a possible mystic meaning. There are so many things that come in sevens - days of the week, deadly sins, hills of Rome.

The number 7 has been mythologized for a very long time. Its a prime number (divisible by 1 or itself) . The Greek Pythagoreans believed that the number 7 pointed symbolically to the union of the Deity with the universe.

The 7 days of the week come from the 7 "stella errans" or moving stars. That would be the sun, the moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, the seven heavenly bodies that moved relative to all the other stars and that could be seen by the naked eye in the ancient world. Maybe that's another reason that the number 7 became important.

Fascinating about the "kings" being elected, rather than hereditary. Many of the later Roman emperors tried avoid the problems of heredity too, and handled the issue in a very different way from how kingship was passed down later in Europe. Smart idea to find the most promising guy around and "adopt" him, as the Emperors often did, or even better, elect him, rather than rely on whatever personality type happened to be next in the primogeniture line.

Thanks, Michele and MicheleR for the info about 7. I didn't know that about the "moving stars."

I was looking at map 1 in the book, which shows early Rome and its neighbors. While Veii, Lavinium, Fidenae and others have definite locations, Alba Longa is marked with a question mark. Here's what Wikipedia has to say about its location.

"Livy said of Alba Longa that it was founded by Ascanius to relieve crowding at Lavinium. He placed it at the foot of the Alban Mount and said that it took its name from being extended along a ridge. Dionysius of Halicarnassus repeated the story, but added that Ascanius, following an oracle given to his father, collected other Latin populations as well. Noting that alba means "white" (and longa "long") he translated the name into Greek as "long white town". Dionysius placed the town between the Alban Mount and the Alban Lake, thus beginning a long controversy about its location." (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_Longa)

I guess the other ancient towns had physical remnants that could verify their locations.

Livy
Dionysius of Halicarnassus (no photo)

Here is what Encyclopedia Britannica had to say about Alba Longa:

Alba Longa, ancient city of Latium, Italy, in the Alban Hills about 12 miles (19 km) southeast of Rome, near present Castel Gandolfo. Tradition attributes its founding (c. 1152 bc) to Ascanius, the son of the legendary Aeneas, thus making it, according to legend at least, the oldest Latin city, which in turn founded others, including Rome. Excavations have revealed cemeteries that date to the 10th century bc and provide valuable evidence of a prosperous Latin culture. Alba Longa headed a Latin league of uncertain extent until destroyed about 600 bc by Rome. Some distinguished families, including the Julian clan, were said to have migrated to Rome at that time.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Alba...

Interesting about the ancient cemeteries, Michele. I wonder how they dated them.

Only 3 chapters into the book and I know where the calendar came from (Numa Pompilius) along with the concept of time. Where would Einstein be without the concept of time?

And, Numa along with Servius Tullius created the census...counting and rank-ordering the Roman people. The discipline of statistics and the rank-order correlation wasn't invented until the 19th century. What was civilization doing for the previous 2500 years?

I also learned the how Numa created a state religion and used religion to control the state. Aren't we dealing with this today...not to mention the last 2 centuries? As Mary Beard said, "Religion, in other words, underwrote Roman power." (p. 102).

In chapter I, I learned a little about the historian, Cato, and George Washington's fascination with him. Now I know where the name of the Cato Institute came from and its political philosophy.

I hope I am not confusing free association with history.

Marianne, I hope you're enjoying the book so far. Of course, we don't really know how the calendar or the census were created, but it's interesting to see how the ancients thought they came about. We do know a lot more about Cato and other men from the late Republic, thanks to the survival of so much writing from that time, in particular Cicero's speeches and letters.

by Marcus Tullius Cicero
(to list just a few)

From April 17, 2014

Archaeology adds another twist to Rome’s foundation story by aging it 100 years

http://theconversation.com/archaeolog...

Thanks, Michele, a really interesting article.

It's interesting that Rome's second king, Numa Pompilius, a Sabine, is said to have originated Rome's religious institutions. Perhaps because the Sabines were a settled community when Romulus' gang of runaways, disinherited sons and brigands settled in the seven hills on the Tibur, the Sabines would already have had a structure for propitiating the gods. The motley crew of newcomers couldn't be expected to have religious traditions and needed the Sabines for that.

...and needed the Sabines for women too!

We don't know how much of this is myth and how much history. I definitely got a sense from this chapter that this was part of their process of identity building- ie take a characteristically Roman institution and ascribe it to an ancient monarch, whether it is the complicated system of governance, the census, the festivals or the circus games.
Also, interesting that being thought to have aspirations to kingship was considered political suicide in later days.

Another point I am looking forward to in future chapters, the Roman preoccupation with liberty and how they defined it, whose liberty was to be given priority, and how it changed through the Republic and the Empire. This is something still relevant today

The thread for week 4 is open. Chapter 4 covers the early Republic.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Vicki wrote: "Marianne, I hope you're enjoying the book so far. Of course, we don't really know how the calendar or the census were created, but it's interesting to see how the ancients thought they came about. ..."

Thanks, Vicki

Interesting comment about liberty, Aparajita. My impression from prior reading about the late Republic is that it mostly had to do with being able to run for office when you wanted to, although that only would apply to very few people. I'm guessing that for the regular citizen, it meant being left alone to live your life the way you wanted to.