The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of June 26th - July 2nd, we are reading chapter 11 of SPQR: A History of Ancient Rome by Mary Beard.

The eleventh week's reading assignment is:

WEEK ELEVEN - June 26th - July 2nd -> 11. The Haves and Have-Nots (435-474)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off April 17th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Vicki

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Mary Beard

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also, the citation thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc. with proper citations or other books either non-fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self-promotion, please.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - Spoiler Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Link:

by Mary Beard

Everyone, for the week of June 26th - July 2nd, we are reading Chapter 11.

The eleventh week's reading assignment is:

WEEK ELEVEN - June 26th - July 2nd -> 11. The Haves and Have-Nots (435-474)

Chapter Overview and Summary:

11. The Haves and Have-Nots


Roman street life

This chapter covers what life was like for ordinary Romans.

Roman bakery

Discussion Topics:

1. Would you rather have been a farmer on a small-to-medium plot of land, or a small businessman, eg. a baker, in Rome? What would be the advantages and disadvantages of each?

2. Given that poor and rich lived close together in Rome, how much interaction would there have been, and what might it have been like?

3. How difficult must it have been to live in a big city without the protection of a police force?

I think I would have like to have been the co-owner of a tavern, where people could get food and drink. It would be "interesting" to deal with all the people but good to see them eat and be satisfied. Given that there were no police force, I think I would have to make enough money to employ some type of guard. Human or maybe a couple of dogs. Of course, there would be some supply chain problems and fire was always a danger.

That does sound way more interesting than running a bakery, Michele. I'd probably want to be in the city, also, maybe as a seamstress - I used to make some of my own clothes. But city life was pretty messy and smelly. I guess you get used to it. Living in the country would have been lots quieter and more hygienic, but you would be quite isolated with neighbors living pretty far away.

1. I would rather be a trader in Rome. Better yet, I would have rather have been one of the traders that followed the legions after the sacking of cities, buying the booty from the soldiers for cheap and trading it with friendly cities everywhere else for profit. Being a farmer would've been a huge bummer mostly because throughout Rome's history, the distribution of land throughout Rome was constantly being rearranged generally for the benefit of retired soldiers or the rich. Working as a trader specifically in Rome wouldn't be all that enticing either though due to disease and by the rich landlords that exploited those living in and around the city through insane leasing agreements. Slaves were often better off both in terms of lifestyle and treatment than a citizen due to their proximity to the rich (those with enough money to afford them).

2. If you've read any of Cicero's stuff, it's really a double edged sword to the question of what their interactions were like. On the one hand, the rich treated the poor with a level of disdain or contempt. Sometimes merely as an annoyance. But during campaigning or election seasons, it was about building the support of those around you and building up the clientela and familial supports around the city. One had to at least do a good faking of good relationship with the citizens.

3. It certainly would have been dangerous for the average person. Crime would have certainly been rampant (no statistical analysis exists aside from a couple of case studies). The rich generally were followed by their clientela (people of whom they are grooming to become successful) I mentioned above and senators were followed by their lictors (which carried weapons associated with the title and ceremony).

Although, do note that in 6AD Augustus formed the cohortes vigilis, or "cohorts that stay awake" which constituted a night watch and fire brigade. It was intended to be temporary, but were so successful that they were kept around. Four years later in 10AD they were expanded to include the city cohorts. Three cohorts of the Praetorian legion (10-12) were city guard, numbered about 3000, and were freedmen paid far less than the typical praetorian.

Thanks for the comments, Taylor. Interesting career choice - I had never thought that there might be people dealing with purchasing booty on the spot. Seems kind of dangerous.

HBO's series Rome had interesting portrayals of life for middle-class Romans, showing their homes and some parts of daily life. I really enjoyed it, especially young Octavian, a smart but cold-blooded young teen.

After reading about the "birthing experts of antiquity," I would like to have been a midwife.

In second century CE, Scibonia Attica was a midwife who came up in the world. She married a healer and acquired wealth. She had the tools of the trade to assist a woman in labor…a birthing chair and a stool to sit on.

Soronus, a physician, active in the turn of the first and 2nd centuries CE was well informed about medicine and childbirth and reported that midwives should be “literate, with her wits about her, possessed of a good memory, loving work, respectable and generally not unduly handicapped as regards her senses, sound of limb and robust…”

Midwives were respected in the community and trusted. There is a second century bas-relief on the tomb of Scibonia showing her delivering a baby. She wasn’t a slave and she wasn’t a wealthy Roman senator or landowner, but she had a good quality of life.

There were other women who didn’t make the grade, however, such as a hostess in a wine shop, who was called to help deliver a baby. No, some women were not literate or skilled as Scibonia. They resembled Sairey Gamp, the degenerate nurse and midwife in Martin Chuzzlewit by Charles Dickens.

But, there were good ones who assisted in successful childbirth before Semmelweis introduced handwashing in the 19th century and EMS managed emergency deliveries in the 20th.

See:
Totelin, L. "Call the (Roman) Midwife," History of Medicine, BBC History Magazine Available URL: http://www.historyextra.com

Vicki, it would've been absolutely dangerous as they would have followed behind the legions in the baggage trains (a prime target for barbarians and enemy armies). Highest risk tends to bear the highest rewards, however.