The Old Curiosity Club discussion

Hello friends,

I am posting our installment early this week, as we all know it is Easter weekend and it is a very busy weekend for me, probably for you too, and since I have a few minutes free time I will post it now. Our installment this week begins with Chapter 43 and we find Pip once again - I wish we could have someone other than Pip once in a while, but I suppose since he is our narrator we must put up with him until the end. And so we find Pip making his way back to Satis House one last time,

"Never had I breathed, and never would I breathe—or so I resolved—a word of Estella to Provis. But, I said to Herbert that, before I could go abroad, I must see both Estella and Miss Havisham. This was when we were left alone on the night of the day when Provis told us his story. I resolved to go out to Richmond next day, and I went."

I did wonder if he felt the same urge to go see Joe and Biddy before he leaves, but somehow I don't think it ever enters his mind. Perhaps I'll be wrong about Pip, for once he may surprise me, but I doubt it. Oh look! Pip has proved me wrong, he did think of Joe!:

"Next day I had the meanness to feign that I was under a binding promise to go down to Joe; but I was capable of almost any meanness towards Joe or his name. Provis was to be strictly careful while I was gone, and Herbert was to take the charge of him that I had taken. I was to be absent only one night, and, on my return, the gratification of his impatience for my starting as a gentleman on a greater scale was to be begun. It occurred to me then, and as I afterwards found to Herbert also, that he might be best got away across the water, on that pretence,—as, to make purchases, or the like."

Well at least he gave Joe a thought. So off he goes to the Blue Boar and on arriving he sees Bentley Drummle come out under the gateway, and look at the coach. They pretend they don't see each other when they both know they are pretending, and both going into the dining room of the inn, Drummle goes and stands in front of the fireplace while Pip acts like he is reading the newspaper. Finally Pip decides Drummle can't have the entire fire to himself so he also goes and stands in front of it. They are acting like twelve year old boys. Thinking more of it, twelve year old boys would probably just fight it out. They eventually begin to talk to each other, during this conversation Drummle makes it clear that he is there because of Estella:

“Have you been here long?” I asked, determined not to yield an inch of the fire.

“Long enough to be tired of it,” returned Drummle, pretending to yawn, but equally determined.

“Do you stay here long?”

“Can’t say,” answered Mr. Drummle. “Do you?”

“Can’t say,” said I.

I felt here, through a tingling in my blood, that if Mr. Drummle’s shoulder had claimed another hair’s breadth of room, I should have jerked him into the window; equally, that if my own shoulder had urged a similar claim, Mr. Drummle would have jerked me into the nearest box. He whistled a little. So did I.

“Large tract of marshes about here, I believe?” said Drummle.

“Yes. What of that?” said I.

Mr. Drummle looked at me, and then at my boots, and then said, “Oh!” and laughed.

“Are you amused, Mr. Drummle?”

“No,” said he, “not particularly. I am going out for a ride in the saddle. I mean to explore those marshes for amusement. Out-of-the-way villages there, they tell me. Curious little public-houses—and smithies—and that. Waiter!”

“Yes, sir.”

“Is that horse of mine ready?”

“Brought round to the door, sir.”

“I say. Look here, you sir. The lady won’t ride to-day; the weather won’t do.”

“Very good, sir.”

“And I don’t dine, because I’m going to dine at the lady’s.”

“Very good, sir.”

To be sure Pip understands, he again calls the waiter into the room a few minutes later to remind him that he dines with the lady that day. Soon after that Drummle goes outside getting ready for his ride and I found this interesting:

"A man in a dust-colored dress appeared with what was wanted,—I could not have said from where: whether from the inn yard, or the street, or where not,—and as Drummle leaned down from the saddle and lighted his cigar and laughed, with a jerk of his head towards the coffee-room windows, the slouching shoulders and ragged hair of this man whose back was towards me reminded me of Orlick."

Is it Orlick? And does he now work at the inn? Or does he work for Drummle? At the end of the chapter Pip makes his way to Satis house. Here is the chapter's last line:

"Too heavily out of sorts to care much at the time whether it were he or no, or after all to touch the breakfast, I washed the weather and the journey from my face and hands, and went out to the memorable old house that it would have been so much the better for me never to have entered, never to have seen. "

In Chapter 44 we find Pip arriving at the house and once again in the same room where he first saw Miss Havisham. Estella is with her, and is knitting while Miss Havisham watches her. When Pip enters they both find him changed and he tells them he has found out who his benefactor was. He says that he always thought it was Miss Havisham and that she had let him think this, she admits it saying she has no reason to be kind. Pip apologizes for mentioning it and telling her that Herbert's relatives are nothing like the others who come to see her, he asks Miss Havisham if she will now help Herbert:

“What do you want for them?”

“Only,” said I, “that you would not confound them with the others. They may be of the same blood, but, believe me, they are not of the same nature.”

Still looking at me keenly, Miss Havisham repeated,—

“What do you want for them?”

“I am not so cunning, you see,” I said, in answer, conscious that I reddened a little, “as that I could hide from you, even if I desired, that I do want something. Miss Havisham, if you would spare the money to do my friend Herbert a lasting service in life, but which from the nature of the case must be done without his knowledge, I could show you how.”

“Why must it be done without his knowledge?” she asked, settling her hands upon her stick, that she might regard me the more attentively.

“Because,” said I, “I began the service myself, more than two years ago, without his knowledge, and I don’t want to be betrayed. Why I fail in my ability to finish it, I cannot explain. It is a part of the secret which is another person’s and not mine.”

She gradually withdrew her eyes from me, and turned them on the fire. After watching it for what appeared in the silence and by the light of the slowly wasting candles to be a long time, she was roused by the collapse of some of the red coals, and looked towards me again—at first, vacantly—then, with a gradually concentrating attention. All this time Estella knitted on. When Miss Havisham had fixed her attention on me, she said, speaking as if there had been no lapse in our dialogue,—

“What else?”

The "what else" is Pip turning to Estella and telling her of his love, which if anyone in the novel didn't know already I'm sure I can't think of who it could be:

“Estella,” said I, turning to her now, and trying to command my trembling voice, “you know I love you. You know that I have loved you long and dearly.”

She raised her eyes to my face, on being thus addressed, and her fingers plied their work, and she looked at me with an unmoved countenance. I saw that Miss Havisham glanced from me to her, and from her to me.

“I should have said this sooner, but for my long mistake. It induced me to hope that Miss Havisham meant us for one another. While I thought you could not help yourself, as it were, I refrained from saying it. But I must say it now.”

Preserving her unmoved countenance, and with her fingers still going, Estella shook her head.

“I know,” said I, in answer to that action,—“I know. I have no hope that I shall ever call you mine, Estella. I am ignorant what may become of me very soon, how poor I may be, or where I may go. Still, I love you. I have loved you ever since I first saw you in this house.”

And now things go from bad to worse for Estella tells him she is planning marry Drummle, something we could see coming from the last chapter. Pip now gives a little speech and in reading it I decided that I must not be the romantic type of person because if someone was saying all this to me I'd think they could use a visit or two to a doctor to see what was wrong with them.

“Out of my thoughts! You are part of my existence, part of myself. You have been in every line I have ever read since I first came here, the rough common boy whose poor heart you wounded even then. You have been in every prospect I have ever seen since,—on the river, on the sails of the ships, on the marshes, in the clouds, in the light, in the darkness, in the wind, in the woods, in the sea, in the streets. You have been the embodiment of every graceful fancy that my mind has ever become acquainted with. The stones of which the strongest London buildings are made are not more real, or more impossible to be displaced by your hands, than your presence and influence have been to me, there and everywhere, and will be. Estella, to the last hour of my life, you cannot choose but remain part of my character, part of the little good in me, part of the evil. But, in this separation, I associate you only with the good; and I will faithfully hold you to that always, for you must have done me far more good than harm, let me feel now what sharp distress I may. O God bless you, God forgive you!”

Finally Pip gets himself away from the women and walks back to London to avoid the coach or the inn just in case of seeing Drummle there once more. And he never did give a thought to a visit to Joe. It is midnight until he arrives in London and entering is given a note by the watchmen, the note is from Wemmick and says just three words "Don't Go Home".

And I will now wish you all a very Happy Easter. Don't eat too much candy. :-)

Happy Easter, Kim! And to the rest of you Curiosities as well!

I have to admit, Kim's summary of these chapters has me hating Pip again.

As for this passage,

you cannot choose but remain part of my character, part of the little good in me, part of the evil. But, in this separation, I associate you only with the good; and I will faithfully hold you to that always, for you must have done me far more good than harm

obviously Pip is still confused about what is truly good in his life. Estella, surely, is not.

BUT. Despite all this, Pip does, at least, see the impact all of this is going to have on his arrangements re: Herbert, and his intercessory pleas on Herbert's behalf tell us that he's still got the capacity to care for others. There's hope.

Kim wrote: "Hello friends,

I am posting our installment early this week, as we all know it is Easter weekend and it is a very busy weekend for me, probably for you too, and since I have a few minutes free ti..."

Happy Easter Curiosities

Well, any chocolate Pip gets in this chapter is bitter, not sweet. Once again, Pip returns to his home village and once again, as Kim notes, to visit Satis House. Once again, no Joe or Biddy. I do see why Pip is not our favourite bunny.

Drummle and Estella? What could be worse, and yet what is more perfect? By establishing this relationship Dickens deals the final blow to Pip's expectations. Gone are the illusions of Miss Havisham as his benefactor, gone are his hopes to win Estella's heart and gone seems to be any sense of his own decency as he does not plan to see Joe.

It is curious that once again a shadowy figure seems to lurk in Pip's shadow, and that person reminds Pip of Orlick. We still have not resolved the question of who was lurking around Pip's home the night Magwitch returned. And then there was Orlick even earlier who was employed as a door porter at Satis House. Knowing Dickens, these threads and hints will return again. How and when will Orlick be deployed in Dickens's plot?

Kim wrote: "In Chapter 44 we find Pip arriving at the house and once again in the same room where he first saw Miss Havisham. Estella is with her, and is knitting while Miss Havisham watches her. When Pip ente..."

Miss Havisham is a mean, cruel, and vengeful person but in this chapter she does speak a brutal truth as well. Her comment to Pip that "You made your own snares. I never made them" is true. All that has befell Pip is a direct result of his own folly and naïveté. While we could excuse him some of his errors because of his youth, or innocence, or lack of effective parenting, the facts remain. Pip was warned by Biddy, by Miss Havisham and even by Estella that the course he was choosing for his life was ill-conceived and just plain wrong. The chains he now wears he did forge himself. Will he become another Marley, doomed to now wander the earth in constant regret? If we consider the fact that he is apparently now homeless this could be true.

As Kim noted, Pip asks Miss Havisham to favour Herbert with some anonymous financial help. Here, for a second time, Pip is helping Herbert. The most striking part of this chapter comes at the very end. On returning to London, and on entering his gate the night-porter gives him a note that reads "Don't Go Home." Ominous indeed. I think also symbolic. In this chapter Pip has apparently severed his connection to Satis House and again chooses not to return to the forge. Thus, his forge/rural world is now part of his past. With the note Pip receives from the porter there is obviously a problem with his London home. Pip has Magwitch tucked away in a hiding place and yet Pip appears for the moment to be homeless himself. I think we have reached the climax of the novel. If Pip has left his past homes and hopes for the future and found that his present home is also a place of danger then what hopes are there for Pip's future?

Shoulder to Shoulder

Chapter 43

F. W. Pailthorpe

1900

Text Illustrated:

“Are you amused, Mr. Drummle?”

“No,” said he, “not particularly. I am going out for a ride in the saddle. I mean to explore those marshes for amusement. Out-of-the-way villages there, they tell me. Curious little public-houses—and smithies—and that. Waiter!”

“Yes, sir.”

“Is that horse of mine ready?”

“Brought round to the door, sir.”

“I say. Look here, you sir. The lady won’t ride to-day; the weather won’t do.”

“Very good, sir.”

“And I don’t dine, because I’m going to dine at the lady’s.”

“Very good, sir.”

Then, Drummle glanced at me, with an insolent triumph on his great-jowled face that cut me to the heart, dull as he was, and so exasperated me, that I felt inclined to take him in my arms (as the robber in the story-book is said to have taken the old lady) and seat him on the fire.

One thing was manifest to both of us, and that was, that until relief came, neither of us could relinquish the fire. There we stood, well squared up before it, shoulder to shoulder and foot to foot, with our hands behind us, not budging an inch. The horse was visible outside in the drizzle at the door, my breakfast was put on the table, Drummle’s was cleared away, the waiter invited me to begin, I nodded, we both stood our ground.

Drummle and Pip at The Blue Boar

Chapter 43

Harry Furniss

1910

There we stood, well squared up before the fire, shoulder to shoulder and foot to foot, with our hands behind us. My breakfast was put on [the] table, Drummle's was cleared away, the waiter invited me to begin, I nodded, we both stood our ground." [A slightly condensed form of the text in Chapter 43.]

Dickens's Great Expectations, Library Edition

Text Illustrated:

"One thing was manifest to both of us, and that was, that until relief came, neither of us could relinquish the fire. There we stood, well squared up before it, shoulder to shoulder and foot to foot, with our hands behind us, not budging an inch. The horse was visible outside in the drizzle at the door, my breakfast was put on the table, Drummle’s was cleared away, the waiter invited me to begin, I nodded, we both stood our ground.

“Have you been to the Grove since?” said Drummle.

“No,” said I, “I had quite enough of the Finches the last time I was there.”

“Was that when we had a difference of opinion?”

“Yes,” I replied, very shortly.

“Come, come! They let you off easily enough,” sneered Drummle. “You shouldn’t have lost your temper.”

“Mr. Drummle,” said I, “you are not competent to give advice on that subject. When I lose my temper (not that I admit having done so on that occasion), I don’t throw glasses.”

“I do,” said Drummle.

After glancing at him once or twice, in an increased state of smouldering ferocity, I said,—

“Mr. Drummle, I did not seek this conversation, and I don’t think it an agreeable one.”

“I am sure it’s not,” said he, superciliously over his shoulder; “I don’t think anything about it.”

“And therefore,” I went on, “with your leave, I will suggest that we hold no kind of communication in future.”

“Quite my opinion,” said Drummle, “and what I should have suggested myself, or done—more likely—without suggesting. But don’t lose your temper. Haven’t you lost enough without that?”

“What do you mean, sir?”

“Waiter!” said Drummle, by way of answering me.

The waiter reappeared.

“Look here, you sir. You quite understand that the young lady don’t ride to-day, and that I dine at the young lady’s?”

“Quite so, sir!”

When the waiter had felt my fast-cooling teapot with the palm of his hand, and had looked imploringly at me, and had gone out, Drummle, careful not to move the shoulder next me, took a cigar from his pocket and bit the end off, but showed no sign of stirring."

Estella Tells Pip of Her Engagement to Mr. Drummle

Chapter 44

Harry Furniss

1910

"Estella looked towards Miss Havisham, and considered for a moment with her work in her hands. Then she said, 'Why not tell you the truth? I am going to be married to Mr. Drummle.' I dropped my face into my hands." [An exact transcription of the text in Chapter 44.] [A slightly condensed form of the text in Chapter 43.]

Dickens's Great Expectations, Library Edition

Text Illustrated:

“Is it not true,” said I, “that Bentley Drummle is in town here, and pursuing you?”

“It is quite true,” she replied, referring to him with the indifference of utter contempt.

“That you encourage him, and ride out with him, and that he dines with you this very day?”

She seemed a little surprised that I should know it, but again replied, “Quite true.”

“You cannot love him, Estella!”

Her fingers stopped for the first time, as she retorted rather angrily, “What have I told you? Do you still think, in spite of it, that I do not mean what I say?”

“You would never marry him, Estella?”

She looked towards Miss Havisham, and considered for a moment with her work in her hands. Then she said, “Why not tell you the truth? I am going to be married to him.”

I dropped my face into my hands, but was able to control myself better than I could have expected, considering what agony it gave me to hear her say those words. When I raised my face again, there was such a ghastly look upon Miss Havisham’s, that it impressed me, even in my passionate hurry and grief.

“Estella, dearest Estella, do not let Miss Havisham lead you into this fatal step. Put me aside for ever,—you have done so, I well know,—but bestow yourself on some worthier person than Drummle. Miss Havisham gives you to him, as the greatest slight and injury that could be done to the many far better men who admire you, and to the few who truly love you. Among those few there may be one who loves you even as dearly, though he has not loved you as long, as I. Take him, and I can bear it better, for your sake!”

"Estella, you know I love you"

Chapter 44

A. A. Dixon

1905

Collins Pocket Edition

Text Illustrated:

“Estella,” said I, turning to her now, and trying to command my trembling voice, “you know I love you. You know that I have loved you long and dearly.”

She raised her eyes to my face, on being thus addressed, and her fingers plied their work, and she looked at me with an unmoved countenance. I saw that Miss Havisham glanced from me to her, and from her to me.

“I should have said this sooner, but for my long mistake. It induced me to hope that Miss Havisham meant us for one another. While I thought you could not help yourself, as it were, I refrained from saying it. But I must say it now.”

Preserving her unmoved countenance, and with her fingers still going, Estella shook her head.

“I know,” said I, in answer to that action,—“I know. I have no hope that I shall ever call you mine, Estella. I am ignorant what may become of me very soon, how poor I may be, or where I may go. Still, I love you. I have loved you ever since I first saw you in this house.”

Looking at me perfectly unmoved and with her fingers busy, she shook her head again.

“It would have been cruel in Miss Havisham, horribly cruel, to practise on the susceptibility of a poor boy, and to torture me through all these years with a vain hope and an idle pursuit, if she had reflected on the gravity of what she did. But I think she did not. I think that, in the endurance of her own trial, she forgot mine, Estella.”

I saw Miss Havisham put her hand to her heart and hold it there, as she sat looking by turns at Estella and at me.

“It seems,” said Estella, very calmly, “that there are sentiments, fancies,—I don’t know how to call them,—which I am not able to comprehend. When you say you love me, I know what you mean, as a form of words; but nothing more. You address nothing in my breast, you touch nothing there. I don’t care for what you say at all. I have tried to warn you of this; now, have I not?”

I said in a miserable manner, “Yes.”

“Yes. But you would not be warned, for you thought I did not mean it. Now, did you not think so?”

“I thought and hoped you could not mean it. You, so young, untried, and beautiful, Estella! Surely it is not in Nature.”

“It is in my nature,” she returned. And then she added, with a stress upon the words, “It is in the nature formed within me. I make a great difference between you and all other people when I say so much. I can do no more.”

Don't Go Home

Chapter 44

Marcus Stone

Dickens's Great Expectations, Garnett edition

Text Illustrated:

It was past midnight when I crossed London Bridge. Pursuing the narrow intricacies of the streets which at that time tended westward near the Middlesex shore of the river, my readiest access to the Temple was close by the river-side, through Whitefriars. I was not expected till to-morrow; but I had my keys, and, if Herbert were gone to bed, could get to bed myself without disturbing him.

As it seldom happened that I came in at that Whitefriars gate after the Temple was closed, and as I was very muddy and weary, I did not take it ill that the night-porter examined me with much attention as he held the gate a little way open for me to pass in. To help his memory I mentioned my name.

“I was not quite sure, sir, but I thought so. Here’s a note, sir. The messenger that brought it, said would you be so good as read it by my lantern?”

Much surprised by the request, I took the note. It was directed to Philip Pip, Esquire, and on the top of the superscription were the words, “PLEASE READ THIS, HERE.” I opened it, the watchman holding up his light, and read inside, in Wemmick’s writing,—

“DON’T GO HOME.”

Here's another of Miss Havisham & Estella, I don't know who the artist is yet.



I'm throwing in this one of Miss Havisham all alone, and odd:

Weird indeed, Kim. Just for a fleeting moment I was hoping both Drummle and Pip would fall into the fire. No such luck.

Is it me, or were these two chapters rather soft in style and plot? Could it be I'm tiring of the Miss H, Estella and Pip merry-go-round?

I'm even finding The Furniss illustrations to be too similar. He does not seem to alter the style of portrayal to any great degree. The Marcus Stone illustration was interesting as we get a preview of the illustrator who will be with us for OMF.

The Don't Go Home warning does have me in suspense.

Furniss's Miss Havisham looks as if it came from "Great Zombie Expectations" -- and she's enormous! I have to admit, I'm not a fan of any of these illustrations. Nary a one. Disappointing.

This is more of a general comment than one related to these specific chapters, but if I wait until we finish the book, I'll have forgotten. As we continue to be harsh with Pip for his pride and treatment of the folks back home, I wanted to throw this out there...

Have any of you read Hillbilly Elegy, a memoir by JD Vance? It spent some time on the NYT best seller list not too long ago. As I read it, I couldn't help but think of our Pip and make some comparisons. Pip and Vance both had tough, poor childhoods. Vance, to his credit, made his own way out of poverty and ended up at Yale Law School where he discovered a world he didn't even realize existed, that included things like networking, pajamas, salad forks, and different types of wine beyond "red" and "white". As I read Vance's tale about trying to navigate this new environment without giving away his past, I felt some sympathy for Pip. Vance had friends to help him out, just as Pip had Herbert, but the stress of being "found out" - especially when his future depended on it - was palpable. And then there's the guilt that comes with being ashamed of the people you love.

It makes me wonder about Dickens himself, and how he felt trying to climb out of poverty. Did he feel like a fraud when he started achieving wealth and celebrity? I know he had to dig his father out of financial holes from time to time, just as Vance had to parent his addict mother. Perhaps Pip distances himself from Joe because Dickens wished he could put some distance between himself and his debtor father, even though he loved him. I don't know -- it's a theory.

I'm glad I happened to read both these books at the same time. Hillbilly Elegy was an interesting companion book and has added some depth to GE for me.

Mary Lou wrote: "This is more of a general comment than one related to these specific chapters, but if I wait until we finish the book, I'll have forgotten. As we continue to be harsh with Pip for his pride and tre..."

We do know that Dickens kept his time working at the blacking factory and his father's time (with the rest of the family) at the Marshalsea a secret from everyone except John Forster.

It is interesting to wonder if he felt like a fraud or not. His drive and ambition contributed to his early success and Dickens never let up. I have recently read a book by his close friend and man who was in charge of his second American tour. Charles Dickens as I Knew Him. Dickens worked and worked without letting up.

I often wonder if he was compensating for his early life.

Kim wrote: "on arriving he sees Bentley Drummle come out under the gateway, and look at the coach. They pretend they don't see each other when they both know they are pretending, and both going into the dining room of the inn, "

It was nice to finally get a short burst of humor after all the depressing behavior of Pip acting so awfully toward the two people in his life he should have been most appreciative of (Provis and Joe, of course; not Herbert, whose main contributions to Pip's life, from what I can see, is to help him get deeper and deeper into debt, and lead him into dissolution in the Finches of the Grove.)

Peter wrote: "Drummle and Estella? What could be worse, and yet what is more perfect? By establishing this relationship Dickens deals the final blow to Pip's expectations. Gone are the illusions of Miss Havisham as his benefactor, gone are his hopes to win Estella's heart and gone seems to be any sense of his own decency as he does not plan to see Joe."

And gone is any hope I had in your contention that Pip was gradually getting better. Do you still hold to that? Or have you finally joined the "Pip is a jerk, even a Shmendrik" club?

Peter wrote: "It is curious that once again a shadowy figure seems to lurk in Pip's shadow, and that person reminds Pip of Orlick. We still have not resolved the question of who was lurking around Pip's home the night Magwitch returned.."

I find this sort of mysterious unknown evil lurking in the shadows to be unusual for Dickens. He can, of course, spring surprises on us, and can foreshadow events, but I don't recall all that many incidents of this indistinct, mysterious foreboding lurking around through so many chapters.

Peter wrote: "All that has befell Pip is a direct result of his own folly and naïveté. While we could excuse him some of his errors because of his youth, or innocence, or lack of effective parenting, the facts remain. Pip was warned by Biddy, by Miss Havisham and even by Estella that the course he was choosing for his life was ill-conceived and just plain wrong. The chains he now wears he did forge himself."

Well, yes, the chains he did forge. But the iron from which to forge them was provided by others. By Pumblechook choosing him to be the one to go to Satis House in the first place, whee Pumblechook should have known perfectly well that a village blacksmith's boy would never fit in but could only get in trouble. And by Provis taking him out of a place where he belonged, where he had a secure future, and giving him the means to make himself feel better than he was and to leave the world where he belonged and try to become someone he was never intended to, and had no innate ability to, be.

Mary Lou wrote: "Furniss's Miss Havisham looks as if it came from "Great Zombie Expectations" -- and she's enormous!"

I agree. She should be frail and tottering, not look like a female prizefighter.

Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "Drummle and Estella? What could be worse, and yet what is more perfect? By establishing this relationship Dickens deals the final blow to Pip's expectations. Gone are the illusions of..."

Oh, I'm still in the Pip will get better camp but he is certainly unembraceable now, isn't he?

We are running out of chapters. Pip needs a Dale Carnegie course soon, real soon.

Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "All that has befell Pip is a direct result of his own folly and naïveté. While we could excuse him some of his errors because of his youth, or innocence, or lack of effective parentin..."

Goodness, Everyman. With this post it sounds like you are beginning to see Pip in a new light, or at least less darkness than before.:-))

Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "It is curious that once again a shadowy figure seems to lurk in Pip's shadow, and that person reminds Pip of Orlick. We still have not resolved the question of who was lurking around ..."

Yes. I find there is much of the lurker in the novel, and that lurker is at times definitely Orlick, or seems to look like Orlick, or can't be identified at all, but if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck and swims like a duck.

Let's see. ... hopefully this is reasonably complete and in chronological order. As for a definition, a lurker is someone who hangs about, often unwanted, but not unobserved. Their presence is one of annoyance, concern, or discomfort to others.

Orlick at the forge, Orlick wants equal time off, Orlick in a fight with Joe, Orlick apparently a focus of concern and suspicion for Mrs Joe's altered condition, Orlick gate-keeper at Satis House, Orlick walking on road with Pip, the question of who does Pip trip over on the stairs, and then we read Pip's comments in Chapter 43 "A man in a dust-coloured dress appeared with what was wanted -- I could not have said from where: whether from the Inn yard , or the street, or where not -- ... the slouching shoulders and the ragged hair of this man, whose back was towards me, reminded me of Orlick." (My italics)

Dickens never clearly telegraphs his intentions of what will happen next or what characters may appear again, but since we have just experienced the return of Magwitch, we can, by reading back in the text, see how often Dickens has dropped hints as to what/who is coming. To me, Orlick is another of those characters who we as readers know Dickens is not yet done with. Our problem, or perhaps better stated, our delight, is the anticipation of how, why and when a character will burst upon our stage again and what it will mean to our protagonist.

Peter wrote: "Goodness, Everyman. With this post it sounds like you are beginning to see Pip in a new light, or at least less darkness than before.:-)) "

Nope. Just observing that the tools by which he became such a jerk were provided by others. But he didn't need to use them the way he did -- plenty of other people have had sudden wealth provided to them and haven't become such snobs.

I found these chapters very affecting. The part where Pip and Bentley Drummle jostling each other in front of the fire strikes me as some of Dickens funniest writing, comparable with the marriage proposal by vegetable (cucumber?) over the garden fence in Nicholas Nickleby :D I am actually finding far more humour in this novel than I ever remember before, which is amazing considering its seriously weird characters and tragic events.

Dickens's description of Pip's servant in chapter 40 (already mentioned "an inflammatory old female, assisted by an animated rag-bag whom she called her niece, and to keep a room secret from them would be to invite curiosity and exaggeration. They both had weak eyes, which I had long attributed to their chronically looking in at keyholes, and they were always at hand when not wanted; indeed that was their only reliable quality besides larceny.”) also made me have tears of laughter rolling down my cheeks.

But how sorry I felt for poor Miss Havisham. It's as if her single-minded vengeance took her by surprise. She genuinely had not expected Estella to be cold towards her. Interesting. Does this imply that she herself is consciously acting the part of the "batty old woman"?

Ah knitting! Yes, threads to bind and entrap, but also another echo of A Tale of Two Cities; this time Madame Defarge.

Thanks for pointing out the description of Pip's servants again, Jean! I actually marked it in my copy when reading it, but somehow it fell below the radar later on. It's these passages where Dickens's creative desire and his keen sense of humour seem to be getting the better of the first-person narrator, i.e. where the voice of Dickens is louder than the voice of our narrator.

I love that description! I now have a mental image of two ghostly Dickenses, one slightly disreputable and unkempt, with a mischievous expression (Dickens's irrepressible self) and a more respectable version with a serious face, each declaiming to the snug in the "Three Jolly Bargemen" :)

Tristram wrote: "Thanks for pointing out the description of Pip's servants again, Jean! I actually marked it in my copy when reading it, but somehow it fell below the radar later on. It's these passages where Dicke..."

Thinking of Pip's servants, what ever happened to the Avenger? If we were told I can't remember.

Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Thanks for pointing out the description of Pip's servants again, Jean! I actually marked it in my copy when reading it, but somehow it fell below the radar later on. It's these pas..."

Good question. The Avenger just faded away.

Peter wrote: "Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Thanks for pointing out the description of Pip's servants again, Jean! I actually marked it in my copy when reading it, but somehow it fell below the radar later on. It..."

That's not unusual with serial publication. A minor character is introduced, it doesn't catch on with the public, so it gets dropped in future episodes. Same thing happens today in soap operas and other TV series.

My mom used to watch soap operas, all of them it seemed like when I was a kid. What I remember most about them, other than it took days and days to finish one conversation with those dramatic pauses at every commercial break, is that people would just disappear for awhile then come back but they would be a different actor. I found this especially odd when a six year old would go to boarding school and come back in a year or two 25 years old and engaged. (The engagements never last).

Peter wrote: "Kim wrote: "Hello friends,

I am posting our installment early this week, as we all know it is Easter weekend and it is a very busy weekend for me, probably for you too, and since I have a few min..."

It is curious that once again a shadowy figure seems to lurk in Pip's shadow, and that person reminds Pip of Orlick.
Yes, in chapter 13, Orlick is said to be broad shouldered ...and always slouching...the slouching gave it away in the current chapter, I did think it was Orlick.

All that has befell Pip is a direct result of his own folly and naïveté. While we could excuse him some of his errors because of his youth, or innocence, or lack of effective parenting, the facts remain. Pip was warned by Biddy, by Miss Havisham and even by Estella that the course he was choosing for his life was ill-conceived and just plain wrong. The chains he now wears he did forge himself.
His perception is off, it always has been. At what point will this man move forward in matters of the heart, if at all? It's true, he is his own enemy.

"Don't Go Home."
Another great cliffhanger.

Oh, I'm still in the Pip will get better camp but he is certainly unembraceable now, isn't he?
Because he does not take it upon himself to visit with Joe and Biddy?

Pip makes so many mistakes. Worse, he seems to make some mistakes more than once. His negligence of Joe and Biddy is unforgivable. Perhaps the only very weak defence for him is that his heart has been so twisted and contorted by Estella, his expectations so horridly misjudged, and his ability to think clearly short-circuited by his habit of responding with visceral intensity all earn Pip some sympathy. Some sympathy .... perhaps just a wee bit?

Peter wrote: "Pip makes so many mistakes. Worse, he seems to make some mistakes more than once. His negligence of Joe and Biddy is unforgivable. Perhaps the only very weak defence for him is that his heart has b..."

its been stated in these threads, at some point Pip has to take responsibility for his actions. Pip has been quite aware for some time about his intentions for Estella will remain unfulfilled, he's even been warned by Estella, yet he refuses to see what is clearly right in front of him. He's come full circle on a few things, but matters of the heart take extra "long" for him.

Joe and Biddy... These two characters are steadfast fixtures from Pip's past, a place where they remain held in high esteem. To love them and be loved by them is second nature to and fro; however, Pip at this juncture seems to be searching for something (answers: about his benefactor, Estella and Drummle, what's to become of his life, how to keep Magwitch safe, the ominous figure lurking around), and those answers cannot be found at the forge. The forge is no longer his home, and it has not been for quite some time... He is so far removed and engrossed in his own life, he does not fit the vacant space left by him at Joe's. I don't think it's a lack of love, or being thankless; Pip cannot go back to the forge in his current state (in debt, homeless and jobless). Pip is proud to, and I'm positive he does not want to go back to Joe's, even for a visit, as a failure.

Ami wrote: "Pip is proud to, and I'm positive he does not want to go back to Joe's, even for a visit, as a failure."

A rather ill-affordable pride, if you ask me, because Pip has never lifted a finger to earn a penny of the money on which he built his gentleman-persona. Would it not become him more to own up to his having backed the wrong horse and ask Joe's forgiveness?