Chicks On Lit discussion

Setting up this thread for a Buddy Read discussion of the book The Axe by Sigrid Undset. Irene and Robin were interested in reading more by this author after our Chunky read of her book Kristin Lavransdatter. Would anyone else like to join them?

Robin, I could start this one this week. Do you want to see if anyone else wants to join us before we start? How quickly do you like to read?

Irene,
Yes I'd love to have others join us, and starting this week is perfect, while I still have Kristin Lavransdatter "in my head." I like to read about 90-100 pages per week. The Axe is in two parts, each roughly 150 pages. Do you want to do it in two or three weeks? Or?

I am open to either way. When I have done other buddy reads with only one other person, we have just checked in day to day to see how far the other person got and talk about what was read. But, if someone else joins us, a schedule is better.

Checking in day to day is fine with me; would it be appropriate for me to extend an open invitation on the Kristin Lavransdatter thread?

That would be great.

I started this yesterday and read about 70 pages. The language has caught me off guard; it has much more of an archaic feel to it. I think Undset is maturing as a writer and this shows a literary flair not present earlier. I am finding this one a bit harder to orient to. Lavrensdatter started out with a far small cast of characters and far less family drama, so I could slowly get my footing. This one just threw me into unfamiliar names and a tangle of family fueds. I suspect that a male pov is going to shift our focus to less domestic concerns as compared with KL.

I'm planning to go out in the sun (finally!) today and get stuck into this. There's a good discussion on "The Axe" Goodreads page which contains a lot of warning about the archaism of the language--I'm looking forward to comparing it with the translation of Kristin Lavransdatter and revelling in the medieval detail.
The Axe

How much reading did you get done? I finished part 1. I am finding the tangled family commitments/attachments a bit confusing.

Went outside to read in the sun and the heavens promptly opened with the biggest thunderstorm in recent memory! I'm up to page 45. Yes, I agree. Keeping all the Inge Bardssons and Bard Ingessons straight is a bore. The footnote on the first page listing the kings doesn't really relate to the narrative's characters, so it just adds to the confusion. I'm hoping this will clear up soon and I can focus on the plot instead of the names. I read somewhere--I think it was the Nobel presentation speech--that Sigrid Undset's novels flow like rivers without stopping to let you catch up, but in a good way, I guess!

I like that image of flowing like a river without stopping to let you catch up. I feel that far more in this one than I did in Kristin. I feel like I am being dropped into the Norwegian version of the Hatfields and the McCoys.

Have you been able to read any this week? How far are you?

I've made it up to page 140. Looking forward to finishing it in the next week. I am in full agreement with you that it's very much like the Hatfields and McCoys--would that be why they called it "feudalism"?!
I thought the narrative would feel very different as it's told from a male's point of view, but the same problems seem to face him--seeking solace with the Bishop's spiritual advice and finding a welcoming home in the Cathedral, which he never felt in his own foster family. And what is up with his biological father? I know that honor among kin was an important element of Kristin, and it's definitely present here.

I thought this did have a different feel from Kristin. I thought this had a more frenetic pace; there was not the quiet times holding children or standing watching the fields. Kristin is certainly racked with guild over disappointing her father and fearful of punishment over her sin. But here the emphasis seems more on public perception and "honor".

I will go back to reading this now that you are near the end of part 1.

I agree that honor is perhaps more important to the men in this world than the women--I remember Kristin's frustration with her husband when he moved away from her home place in order to establish the respect he felt was lacking there--in modern terms, "to re-invent himself," perhaps?

It looks like part 2 will be from Ingun's perspective.

Where are you in the reading of this book? I am half way through part 2. I stopped reading because I did not want to get too far ahead of you.

Robin, I read some yesterday. I am up to chapter 8. I could have finished but I did not want to run to the end ahead of you. However, if I don't hear from you, I will be finishing this today.

I'm only on chapter 3 of the second section. I'll be finishing it in the next couple of days. Ingunn's perspective is indeed different from Olav's. The old woman Aasa's familial protectiveness of Ingunn is one example. I'm having a hard time anticipating where this is heading. I wonder if at the end I'll want to continue with the second volume, The Snake Pit. What do you think?

I am seeing many similarities to KL. Family loyalty is a key theme. Even when a person is angry with something done by a family member, they seem to stick together. Of course, in a society that is geographically stable and where there is no social safety net, family bonds are critical. Faith is an anchor and compass. People do not always live according to religious ideals, but they regularly return to the institution to find their footing. The penance of the Church seems to provide the social validation of the person's contrition which enables others to give them a second chance, to allow them to be reincorporated into their social context. It certainly seems like a more humane way to deal with breaching of social norms than decades of incarceration and a lifetime of stigmatization. Honor is another theme, the way an individual's actions impacts the place of the entire family in the social network. Honor is a valuable commodity. Blood is definitely thicker than water. The closer the relational ties between people, the more one is obligated to them, both to care for them, to forgive them and to ensure that your actions brings them honor. The further the relationship, the more permissible it is to harm that person. This is not a good place for the foreigner who has no one in the community to protect them.

I will hold off on reading. Let me know when you are getting near chapter 8.

This is an amazing comment, Irene. I'm so glad you're my buddy in this. First, you point out something that I'm now able to see very clearly, thanks to you. That is the idea that not all church-goers are consistent here, but when they do fall off the rails they know where to go to get back on track, as Olav does after he kills Einar. The family tree, which at first seems so confusing, is essential, as you say, because you're always asked where your loyalties lie--with the second cousin or the first nephew, for example. With the foster family or the church or the Earl? A lot to chew on. It's so interesting how it starts making sense--I will be moving on to The Snake Pit, I think.

I think I am going to continue with this series also. It is not hard to read and I do find the historical bits interesting. I wonder how much of Sigrid is in these books. I don't want to spoil anything, but we see the same marriage tensions in both books. Both young couples are conflicted between romantic love and family duty. Certainly, that was not every family's problem in the 13th century. So, is this Sigrid's interest because it somehow touches her life or does she think this is a theme that sells?

I'm catching up, Irene. The whole twist created by the entrance of the Icelander Teit sure makes for some drama in Ingunn's tale.

Yes, I had to wonder how long this attractive, passionate young woman could hide herself away in her grandmother's sick room not knowing if Olav was alive or dead. In the beginning, she saw herself as this persecuted, tragic figure which was some motivation for her behavior. But, after a while, no one seemed to care any longer if she wore black, stayed away from the dances or whatever. I think the loss of attention, whether negative or positive, was just too hard over the long haul. I did not trust that Icelander from the beginning; he was just a bit too full of himself.

To me, Teit represents that prideful, boasting, attention-seeking personality that Undset portrays as attractive on the one hand but is ultimately a "sin" and leads to trouble.

To your comment above, "is this Sigrid's interest because it somehow touches her life or does she think this is a theme that sells?" I've had the same thought occurring to me over the last 50 or so pages, with the entrance of the Icelander. There is a moral/religious dimension which we've seen before and relates to her Catholic conversion, but it is closely tied to romantic, almost "bodice ripper" fare which would perhaps rope in more readers. And then there is her historical/archaeological knowledge on display.

Undset also has a very positive opinion of human nature. People certainly are guilty of their share of poor choices, but down deep, they all seem to be more good than bad. They look after their own. Their transgressions are more weakness than evil. They usually realize when they have done wrong, are racked with guilt, try to make reperation.

With the similarities in plot/story line between KL and this one, do you like one more than the other?

That's tough. It took me a long time for KL to grow on me. I feel like we're just being introduced to these characters and I'll enjoy reading more of their story. It's been a real learning experience for me and I find myself checking out books on Icelandic sagas from the library. By the way, were you surprised at Olav's reaction to Ingunn's circumstances when she tells him she's pregnant?

Actually, I was surprised when Ingrin was pregnant. I thought the two of them were necking, but I did not pick up that they had sex. I was not surprised that Olav was furious and neither was she. I thought his reaction was pretty typical of a guy whose wife has cheated on him. They do consider themselves married even if the rest of society do not. I was surprised that Tora was not more outraged. I had gotten the impression that Tora was a bit more of a play-by-the-rules sort of girl, someone who had little patience for those who violated expectations. When Tora had begged Ingrun to live with her and her husband to help take care of the children, Ingrin turns her down. She does not trust the way Tora would treat her. But, Tora had figured it out and sticks by her sister when it is finally revealed. She defends Ingrun against that mean-spirited servant. I expected Tora to have been angry with Ingrin, even if eventually she came around and supported her in her time of need.

Did you finish this book? I was wondering what you made of events in the final chapters, but I don't want to say anything specific until I know that you have read it.

Irene, I've been finishing It Can't Happen Here --I have one more chapter of The Axe so let's talk tomorrow!

OK, no hurry. If you want to finish It Can't Happen Here before returning to finish up The Axe, that is no problem. I just did not want to presume you had finished and then say something you had not yet encountered in the text.

Finished it yesterday! Started The Snake Pit last night. More tales of the Ribbungs and the Birchlegs. Looking back on The Axe (doesn't seem like the best name Undset could have chosen, but it might lose something in translation?) I can see some humor peeking through, as in the title of chapter 1: "Olav Audunsson Takes a Wife". Would that things were so simple for Olav and Ingunn. At the beginning of The Snake Pit there is a reference to historical events creating an environment where they can go "no more a-viking." For me, these are unexpected moments where the author's voice comes through and her perspective becomes clearer. Right up to the end I thought Arvid was going to take Ingunn for himself. Clearly he's an honorable man.

Were you surprised that Olav chose to be faithful to his marriage vows even though Ingrin was not? Not only does he accept her as his wife, but he promises never to make her feel badly for her infidelity. For such a young couple who has spent more time as foster siblings than as romantic partners, this seems very generous. Did you expect it of him? Do you think he can actually fulfill that commitment? Or, is this just Undset's romantic streak coming out in her characters?

What did you make of Olav's murdering of Teik in cold blood? It was so calculated. True, Teik was a cad, but murder? Why does this society seem to put so little value on human life? Even the death of a relation in that brawl at the end of part 1 seems to be treated more on the level of family honor than a violent crime.

This society has a far better sense of family values than we have today. People seem to stick by one another in ways that we no longer do. Olav's honor is seriously violated by Ingrin's infidelity and her bringing an illegitimate child into their marriage, yet he not only gives her social protection, he appears to forgive her and continue to love her. Even the extended family rallies around her when she has this affair and pregnancy. At the same time, vigilanty justice results in quite a few rather casual murders. Are we in a better place today or a worse one? By turning over justice to political authorities instead of family honor, did we weaken the family unit? I saw in this society some of the dynamics I read about currently in the Middle East with reports of honor killings..

I'm not completely convinced that Olav was faithful during all that time--weren't there one or two veiled references that hinted at indiscretions (murder, possible infidelity, etc.) in the course of the narrative?

The murder of Teit was blood revenge, or atonement, and was part of the old, barbaric legal system in Norway--I think Undset's point is that in transitioning away from the old into the new something is lost--being judged by a third party or subscribing to Christian ethics goes against "nature." What made the family brawl ending in Einar's death such a transgression was that it took place in a convent--the ultimate symbol of the new "kinder, gentler" Christianity.

There is the recurring tug of war between "manly men" representing primitive ways like Teit and Einar and those drawn to the priesthood like Arnvid and Kristin's uncle in KL. When you really wanted to insult someone you called them the Viking equivalent of "girly girl." It verges on homophobic innuendo: "this friendship of yours for the lily-white boy. We have heard a tale or two, we have, of the kind of friendship you learn in schools." (Soon-to-be dead Einar to Arnvid)

I feel that Undset created a realistic, flawed woman in Ingunn--she went against societal rules by being unfaithful to her husband once during his ten year absence and "paid the price" by becoming pregnant. She went against the rules again by not settling for Teit's proposal, which would betray her aristocratic family's name and remained true to her original vows to Olav. It reminds me of Penelope waiting for Odysseus. Olav did the right thing by taking her back, exacting blood atonement, and I expect he'll honor the marriage vows going forward. He's the outlaw hero and she's the nuanced, complex character that gives the old Scandinavian sagas such an enduring appeal.

I did pick up references to Olav killing during his 10 years away, but I did not pick up any hint of sexual infidelity, but I did presume the possibility after reading KL. Ingun is certainly a complex character: her hystrianic illness, her defying of social expectations by her marriage to Olav outside of a church ceremony and subsequent insistence on its validity despite family pressure against it, her one night stand with Teit and her ambivluent response to her child. I was surprised that there was not more negative fall out to her pregnancy. The family rallied around her despite her history of defying them.

I did not see Olav as an outlaw hero. Other than his marriage to Ingun, he seemed to function completely inside respected social roles. And, even the marriage had roots in parental arrangements. I saw KL's marriage as a bit more socially defiant. Olav does seem like the modern ideal romantic partner: strong, forgiving, treating Ingun as a partner, competent, good-looking, gentle, etc.

Why does Teit need to pay for his sexual transgression with his life while Ingun goes unpunished? I always thought that the woman bore the brunt of social stigmitazation for sexual crimes and that society allowed the man to get away with little recriminations. Is this another shift that Christianity brings to the old world, punishing the woman rather than the man?

The theme of Olav and murder for revenge--he didn't want to do it but he had to do it. It was interesting how while he was skiing with Teit, knowing he must kill him he was growing fond of him, treating him as the son he never had, answering questions along the way, etc. There were points at which he had to overcome his revulsion at what he was about to do and get his head in the game when he feared he was becoming "preposterously" soft and might not go through with it. It felt like modern psychological horror--I wonder if the ghost of Teit will haunt him in later volumes.

To me, the problem with Olav as the modern ideal romantic partner--I agree with you, but the problem is he was absent. For ten years he was atoning for his murder of Einar by being indentured to the Earl, as I understood it. Modern law has stepped in and in causing him to be absent has ramifications for Ingunn's behavior.

I'm fascinated by the idea that Christianity may have brought a shift in the way women were treated--that they weren't held responsible for their crimes prior to Christianity (if I understand you correctly).

Was his indenture to the Earl his atonement or was it simply his exile that was his punishment and his service to the earl his way of making a living during that period?

As for women and sexual transgressions, I am only wondering. I am thinking of biblical stories like the woman caught in adultery through to Puritan stories like the Scarlet Letter and the woman caught in sex outside of marriage carries the brunt of the punishment. Oftten the male partner is not even mentioned. But, in this story, Ingun is treated with an amazing amount of understanding from everyone: her husband, her sister, her aunt, etc. Only the servant torments her and this seems to be as much as an attempt to gain superiority as anything. Yet, Teit pays for the crime of adultery with his life and he did not even know that Ingun was married at the time of his transgression. I have always thought that society held a double standard around sexual crimes, punishing prostitutes and not the Johns, for example. But, this flips the double standard. Of course, Teit is the outsider. If he were part of the clan, I wonder how things would play out.

Irene and Robin, I enjoyed reading your buddy read comments. What a good pairing you two were. Wonderful discussion.

What a coincidence! Just saw a collected volume of these books at the National Nordic Heritage Museum in Seattle this morning and immediately thought back to my buddy read with Irene two and a half years ago!

And I have been thinking that I would like to finish the series.