World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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When an ending is disappointing..


What outweighs what: the enjoyment of the process or the d..."
Disappointment sometimes has to to do with what the reader expects to see happening. For example, a hero normally has to succeed, but what if he doesn't? This kind of dilemma probably gave birth to the notion of anti-hero where the issue is not necessarily succeding but doing as much as he can hoping to acheive something good, against all odds.

Disappointment isn't always due to an unsatisfying ending. With the current focus on series, a lot of readers are let down when an author ends the book in the middle of the story to force you to buy the next part. Another variation is when the story takes a sharp left turn in the final chapters to create a similar "cliff-hanger." In this case, the problem isn't the ending, but the beginning...an author should make full-disclosure up front that they're selling a serial, not a series. Not to say serials are bad, after all a lot of classic authors from the nineteenth century released their books as serials, but the consumer knew what they were getting at that time.



I've had an instance where the poor ending of a book inspired a completely different idea (and book) so I really don't mind this at all to be honest.


Scout, I'm finding it difficult to get anyone to read my book; how do i assert some power over the universe?

My complaint about making a point is not that he made it - he left making the same point. I got it a lot earlier.

I would agree this is key. Even if you go with the cliffhanger or if you choose to serialize, the reader should still receive some sort of resolution by the final page of the individual piece.
Soap operas constantly deal with the balance between resolution and keeping around favorite characters no matter how far they cross the lines. General rule of thumb is that when someone does something wrong, they must pay for it at some point even if the scales don't balance. It's why you'll encounter characters who may commit murder and avoid jail time, but at some point in their story, they'll suffer some sort of downfall. It may not appear just, but if their lawyer gets them cleared of the charge, at least there was some "punishment" in the scope of the universe. General resolution is the same way. A book may not end with absolute resolution, but if something is resolved and the reader walks away feeling something was settled, then you've created a suitable ending.




Writing is unavoidable for most of us. It is the same as being an artist; one just has to do it nomatter how poor is the result. Thank you. There are many ways to tell a story - and many reasons for doing so. I know some writers who cannot start writing the story until they know everything about the plot and characters, beginning, middle and ending. It would seem that applies to Ian. But I find that a very small thing can start the process. I think I've said somewhere above that it can be the snatch of part of a conversation, or some physical evemt, no matter how insignificant, like a dog running onto a busy road or finding a dead swallow. When one starts to write about it, it just grows, like a flower, sometimes rapidly sometimes in jerks. When I find a character in my mind or memory and start to write about them, they just grow the same, like getting to know a new friend or a baby. That is called, following the characters. Dickens did that. On my website (penpowerwriting.com - Books) I talk about Dicken's last, and unfinished book, 'The Mystery of Edwin Drood'. Many famous writers have conjectured as to how he meant to finish it. I don't think he knew how he would. Yes, endings can be difficult. My published book, Getting Tyson has a Postscript ending. The ending of the events came naturally following the story but I felt there would be questions in the reader's mind about what happened to the characters afterwards, so I did a postscript chapter of quick (I hope) amusing explanations. But I have another espionage story ready for polishing where the ending happened suddenly and unexpectedly, not as I had intended. That was because the intended ending would not have been truthful because it would have ignored one of the characters and when I thought of that there could only be one ending. That is the magic of storytelling to me.
Ian, Horses for Courses. I'm reading Delphian. I can see how the physical events dominate and I think I will know the ending before I finish it.

On the other hand I have a space opera series two parts done but struggling with next part although the story is ot done by any means.
I would say that in all cases I believe the books are stand alone and can be read without reference to previous books - but I would say that. Writing that way does cause back story issues in the follow on parts. An editing (what was that character's name and spelling did I really kill them off in chapter 3 of book two only to find them alive and well in chapter 6 of book 4) and a show don't tell nightmare.


Well said

Either that or you'll get a 300k doorstop. My first attempt (still lurking waiting to be turned into something readable) topped 600k. The second was a million words about a character and a world (also awaiting the editorial chainsaw).
Maybe it's partly the style, writers who don't know the end can't tell how long the road will be.
I start with a general aim in mind, then part-way through I've got the end and possibly three important way-points, then I need to find a way to connect up that's not too linear.
As has been said earlier, everyone writes differently. So series vs single books isn't good vs bad, it's two sides of a coin (or three, or seven, or Wheel of Time?)
Providing the story ends eventually, that is. Hopefully not too predictably and without having the message riveted to my skull.



The writing of a series is an interesting problem and if anyone is interested, I thought I would explain how my main SF series happened, which was mainly by logic. First, around 1988 I had spare time on my hands so I decided I would try to write my "War and Peace". (I believe in ambition :=) In this case it got away from me a bit.) I wanted to include bits from my travels because that made the background easier to write, and I was interested in political economics, so my future was an extrapolation of one of J. K. Galbraith's models, in which corporations would grow and control the economy. I decided to have much of the world in Federation. Having done that much, I needed an enemy - aliens were obvious - and a hero - a young man who wanted to be a space pilot, but I wanted this to have some science in the background, so I made him a "could have been" physicist. To get him into the picture, I had him, through his physics/astronomy, discover the aliens arriving.
Why were the aliens there? They had suffered a major battle defeat, and they needed their ships repaired. The Corporations would help, BUT they wanted the Federation overthrown as the price. So the aliens were actually tolerably reasonable. I decided I would have two major heroines - one would have a love/hate relationship with my hero, and the other would be the ugliest woman in the world. My next major hero was a Roman legatus who had been abducted by aliens and had been permitted to return to help. He brought two advanced battleships - not enough. See how we have lots of material here?
It needed a prequel - how did this roman get there and back. (It had to be a Roman because of relativity.) That led to what was effectively a trilogy, in which the Roman was required to go and get help for humanity in the future. Then, we find that the aliens came here as a consequence of what the Roman did, so we now had a logic loop paradox, resolvable only by yet another book, that followed the big one. See how it all grows?

I admire the objective concept of writing and getting down to it and seeing it through. That is like the many tasks one has to perform in life; I hate gardening but it has to be done; I must clean out the garage and get rid of all that junk, oh well, another day.
I have often spoken with old colleagues from my journalism days who want to write a book but just don't have any ideas about what to write; they are just plumb numb with news events. I have been there and had to take your approach. It's like an artist staring at a blank canvas waiting for inspiration. But we know inspiration only comes when one starts putting a few words on paper, one foot at a time.
You make me interested in sci-fi - but I don't go for that Roman thing; relativity is relative. I once fancied writing a sci fi, inspired by Ray Bradbury. I'll give you the idea. A space-probe is lost on another planet or moon. Some years later a rescue/research mission is launched. They find the skeletons of the previous crew. Their souls are locked into their space-suits inside the capsule and one of the original female crew pines after one of the young male rescue mission, but he has a relationship going with a female member of his crew. The old soul causes the new female to have a fatal accident and when she is taken from her suit for attention the old female spirit takes over her body, hoping the male will fall in love with her. He is ecstatic when he thinks his love has survived but slowly the young body disintergrates to an old hag.
Panto cum love-story cum thriller cum sci-fi. How can it fail?


I will promise myself to sample your work, Ian when I catch-up with two books I am trying to finish.


So the books were written not only to tell the necessary story, but also to give some indication how science works and also does not work, and offers some puzzles to the readers that are real. The answers are simple, but I bet most readers will fail to reach them. The reason being that most science seems simple when someone tells you the answer, but before that it is anything but.

Believe me P.K. my editor uses an axe. She re-sharpens it for every page I send her. Just as well, really. Her red pen didn't say the back story explanation or prequel wasn't necessary, just that it shouldn't arrive in a big cold lump and interrupt the story.
Like Ian in a way, the length comes from the plots. I imagine big, beautiful (loosely speaking) new worlds and people them, then write a story that roams across them. Without the world, the stories are kinda hanging there in a limbo. I sometimes write the first draft of the middle or third book first, then the book that led to it. (I've got a big problem with one, how to get from book one to book three)
Other authors peel out the bits they need and write it all in one book. If the reviews really tank, I might have to seriously consider trying that but it wouldn't be as much fun.


Getting stuck with a series must be a problem. When I am stuck with one book it is bad enough. I am struggling with a book that flits between time and events and I find that a nightmare trying to remember who did what when and in what order I should shuffle the pack. Writing from the middle can be a good idea too. I have found that going back and rewriting the beginning can improve the book hugely; because we get better as we get into the story.
Ian, you are right, of course; trying to sell War And Peace rather than The Old Man And The Sea is a no-brainer. But, going back to your books, it seems to me that, because they are truly science-based, you have a market. Why don't you attend scientific conferences and get permission to sell your books at them? Or university, science faculties? I did read a bit of Aristotle (Politica) once. What I like about him was the way he prefaced work with definations of words that he would use. I am fascinated and amazed at the brains of ancient scholars.


Your advertising v book sales is topical elsewhere in these posts. Have you been following Graem Rodaughan's efforts ? His figures prove that, for some time at least, that advertising is not profitable. Surely you can find a calculus that will prove or disprove the theory so we can all decide to either shut up or keep trying to sell?

The science books are not really suitable for scientific journals because while they eventually make big points, they do so too slowly because I have to demolish some previous ideas that are wrong. Also, one of the interesting things about scientific papers is that unless you have a big name, a paper is usually read by fewer than two people outside the authors! (That is according to statistics, but I am wondering how the figures were obtained.) To give an example, there are over two million chemical related papers published a year; who has time to read any of that, and worse, if you haven't got access to a major University library, you cannot anyway.
As for developing a calculus for how to do sales, that would be easy if we could find some relationship between sales and activity, but so far I can't.

I'm definitely lucky in my editor, Sharon Umbaugh. She taught me to write vs putting down words.
I'm also incredibly fortunate in having a publisher, one who is very tolerant about word count (when I was beating my literary breast, Rachel told me the book is as long as the story). Though I'm sure she is grateful I cut the stories into a series.
Rachel also warned me that being an overnight success can take 10 years (I'm only 18 months in).
Because I'm writing in 3 or 4 genres (I'm never sure) and 4 series I end up reading my previous books to get 'in the zone' for the next, which helps the flow from one to the next (I hope). The retrospective look at the published one does definitely show me mistakes, ways could have written it better, and I hope I avoid them thereafter.
Ian, I agree on the sales bit. Though even as series they aren't selling enough to excite the taxman yet :-)
About the scientific books - my brother is a Research and Development Fellow in Biotechnology. He points out that after forty years on the cutting edge and umpteen published papers, I'll still be more famous and wider read if I get one moderate success. (Even though he is a big name in his field)
I'm not hung up op on either the success or sales (although I'd love to break even on the betas and editing :-). I write because I can't watch TV or move about much. I travel imaginary worlds and decided to write them down. Maybe that's why my stories roam?
With regard to advertising, a free giveaway seems to be followed by a few sales, and some reviews. I'm sure that doesn't come close to covering the costs of the publisher's advertising, but without some exposure how will anyone know your book (or you) exists?

Yes, unfortunately, as Ian will confirm, scientific anything takes a back seat in the 'grab me' stakes. It is a stupid world of stupid people to the fore. The majority think with their bellies and their other parts so why do they need science, knowledge or just good literature?
I am extremely sorry for any physical deficiencies you might have to struggle with. I hope your writing takes you where you can't go and takes a lot of other people with you.

I pay for betas and editing then the publishers edit again, sometimes twice. Sharon edits but also helps me tremendously with smoothing the storyline and character developments (we have discussions but polite ones because, after all, I'm British y'know)
My brother takes solace in my writing under a pen name, so actually he'll always be the famous one (family joke). We also rant a little about science vs culture - or whatever is today's name for popular. I did read one of his papers - but I needed him there to translate, or three other papers to explain bits of it :-)
I treat how I am as normal (it is for me) so I'm good, thanks. Writing has definitely helped, I roam where nobody can follow :-)
Read this and saved it - I think it applies to writing as well:
Enablement
When pain first stole my morning walk, crippled limb and mind
All I could think was what I'd lost, how fate was so unkind
Then like a sunbeam in my heart, cutting through the gloom
a spark became a beacon, and poetry began to bloom
So now I run to greet the dawn, I soar through endless skies
All the mysteries of time and space, revealed before my eyes
The pain that ate me up, made me so miserable and terse
is now lost against the splendour of the poetic universe
My words can paint a panorama, full of colour, fire and life
An antidote to realities, to our modern, soul-less strife
Lift spirits on clouds of laughter, light fires in your heart
Bring the strongest to their knees, or break a world apart
Paint spots dropped on canvas, seeds in a forest glade
Rewriting our conceptions, transforming feather into blade
Poetry spreads and merges, ever bringing a different hue
So open up your heart, and let its magic flow right through



Nice poem Vance, but the bottom line is; there is no bottom line; no author.




What does bother me is when it feels like the ending has been rushed and compressed into the final few pages after reading a lengthy story that built everything well - the plot, the characters, the world, - and then suddenly it's over. I feel like all the air suddenly got sucked out.
The 2nd issue has already been raised. I enjoy there being a series to keep reading, but I don't like a cliffhanger. I want to choose to continue to read the series because it is good, not because it failed to have an ending to the main issues and the only way I can find out is to buy the next book, which will also end in a cliffhanger.


Some series are a set of single stories that use the same characters, but I can't do that (I have trouble cramming a story into three books.)
I wrote one cliffhanger (trying to keep the book to 'acceptable' length) but the next book took two years because I started too many series. Rookie mistake, I didn't think anyone would be interested, that they'd sink without trace.
Now I like to close a thread at the end of a book, settle the main issue for the characters so the reader has a finish point, but leave the overall plot running. I agree with Philip, a reader asking for the sequel is a real buzz.
What outweighs what: the enjoyment of the process or the disappointment in the finale?