Victorians! discussion

Here we are at the second Christmas. The grief is still there, but it is becoming a gentler, less frantic grief. The Christmas falls “calmly,” although

“ over all things brooding slept
The quiet sense of something lost.”

Quite different from the first Christmas, when

“This year I slept and woke with pain,
I almost wish'd no more to wake,
And that my hold on life would break
Before I heard those bells again:”

This second Christmas,

“Who show'd a token of distress?
No single tear, no mark of pain:
O sorrow, then can sorrow wane?
O grief, can grief be changed to less?

O last regret, regret can die!
No—mixt with all this mystic frame,
Her deep relations are the same,
But with long use her tears are dry.”

The grief is still there, but there are only so many tears one can shed.

In the phases of grief, are we starting to get to acceptance? Not to forgetfulness, that never, but to acceptance that Hallam is gone and life still must go on?

Or is Tennyson still not there yet? But he does seem to be returning to his faith:

“If any vague desire should rise,
That holy Death ere Arthur died
Had moved me kindly from his side,
And dropt the dust on tearless eyes;

Then fancy shapes, as fancy can,
The grief my loss in him had wrought,
A grief as deep as life or thought,
But stay'd in peace with God and man.”

And then there is the very interesting Canto 81:

“Could I have said while he was here,
`My love shall now no further range;
There cannot come a mellower change,
For now is love mature in ear'?

Love, then, had hope of richer store:
What end is here to my complaint?
This haunting whisper makes me faint,
'More years had made me love thee more.'

But Death returns an answer sweet:
`My sudden frost was sudden gain,
And gave all ripeness to the grain,
It might have drawn from after-heat.'”

Tennyson is almost finding comfort in Hallam’s early death; is there an echo here of the idea that “only the good die young”? Are the many years that were lost somehow compensated for by Death’s sweet answer?

I have read this Canto multiple times, but am not sure still quite where Tennyson is in his cycle of grief. Is anybody else there yet?

I've read all of In Memoriam now, because I wanted to get a feel of the shape, but am still going back to read some of the cantos again.

On Canto 81, I think this is a great poem, with the imagery of harvest running through.

There is only one note of a comment by Tennyson himself in the Penguin Selected Poems, on the first line - he explained "Could I have said while he was here" as "Would that I could have said". So there is a note of longing here as well as a question - he wishes his love had been given time to grow.

At the end, I think Tennyson is recognising how his sudden loss brought his love to maturity and fruition - but there is still that contrast between frost and heat.

I'm not sure he passes through a steady cycle of grief, but I think by this stage the grief is becoming quieter and more settled, as time passes.

One aspect of this "long poem" that makes it so continually interesting is the variation despite the unchanging rhythm and rhyme scheme. In section 79, he explains to his brothers why a friend could be more loved than his own brothers. I see that the three oldest brothers were very close when they were young--writing and publishing poems together. What a lovely thesis, that the friend was different and better than the mourner, and therefore could expand his thinking. Kind of like playing chess with your siblings can only take you so far. If you want to improve, you must find a different and better player.

Judy wrote: "I'm not sure he passes through a steady cycle of grief, .."

I am constantly seeing cycles. In sections 80 through the first part of 84, the mourner is finding comfort in a few different threads of thought, and seems quieter, even hoping that if spring would come his "frozen bud" would burst "And flood a fresher throat with song." Towards the end of 84, he speaks of a possibility that Jesus might join them "as a single soul." But then, shockingly,

The old bitterness again, and break
The low beginnings of content?"

In the first stanza of 85, we are rolled back to 27, with the repeat of those famous lines beginning the longest section yet.

I am also noticing references that make this group of poems much more personal. The mourner speaks of his own brothers, he names Arthur and refers to him as a brother-in-law, imagining the nephews that he would have played with.

I am delving into In Memoriam on a bit of a quest--to learn to read poetry for pleasure. In the introduction to Alfred Lord Tennyson's 'in Memoriam': A Reading Guide, it says: "The novel is a descendant of epic poetry, but, in learning to read the novel, we have forgotten how to read the long poem; its forms have become alien and so they prohibit, rather than enable our understanding." I am definitely finding this a bit of a slog, but I do feel that I am making some progress. After Poem 87 (which I think is a sort of overview or summary of what has passed in the first year of mourning), I thoroughly enjoyed the luscious language of Poem 88. Very abstract, but lovely. (Maybe the shorter length had an impact as well.)

O, tell me where the senses mix,
O, tell me where the passions meet,

Whence radiate: fierce extremes employ
Thy spirits in the darkening leaf,..

Everyman wrote: "Tennyson is almost finding comfort in Hallam’s early death; is there an echo here of the idea that “only the good die young”? Are the many years that were lost somehow compensated for by Death’s sweet answer? ..."

I didn't read it as finding comfort in his early death, I think he is fretting and grieving in this section imagining the life they could have shared if Arthur had married Tennyson's sister and they had grown old together (a piece I found very moving), but in this canto he decides that even though it ended early, their friendship was already mature so that Tennyson didn't miss out on having an even stronger bond with his friend as it was as strong as it could be.

Ginny wrote: "I am delving into In Memoriam on a bit of a quest--to learn to read poetry for pleasure."

Have you read Seamus Heaney's translation of Boewulf? It is going to the beginning of the epic poem, but giving it an interesting modern reading, and has a very good introduction explaining how Heaney approached the task of translating which really helped open up the poem for me.

I think as 'In Memoriam' is a series of poems it perhaps isn't the easiest one to be drawn through, but I hope you're finding the language and some of the images moving?

Clari wrote: "Ginny wrote: "I am delving into In Memoriam on a bit of a quest--to learn to read poetry for pleasure."

Have you read Seamus Heaney's translation of Boewulf? It is going to the beginning of the ep..."

Thanks so much for the reference. I will definitely check it out.

And yes, I am enjoying the images and the rhythm for their own sakes. Another part that appeals to me is this constant questioning. Rather than telling the reader "This is the way it is", I read much of this as "Is this the way it is?"

Ginny wrote: "Another part that appeals to me is this constant questioning. Rather than telling the reader "This is the way it is", I read much of this as "Is this the way it is?" "

I think the exploration of grief is what has made it still relatable in a differenct century when the Christianity that Tennyson falls back on is being displaced (or has been displaced?) in society.