Ultimate Popsugar Reading Challenge discussion

So with the recent checkin about DNF books some have written about books that are in poor taste. Say the author was sexist or attempted to write a character that was supposed to be homophobic or racist but just ended up being straight up bad (not in an educational way).

Two books that I can think of are Eligible: A Modern Retelling of Pride and Prejudice and Small Great Things. Yup sorry I wasn't a fan of Small Great Things, it didn't seem legitimate coming from an author that wasn't of color.

This isn't a place to bash anyone either...please try to be respectful.

There was a book I read called After Birth and the character had a baby and she helps out her neighbour who is having trouble nursing by wet nursing and stuff. For the most part it's an interesting and poignant story about postpartum depression and how that can affect a woman trying to transition into motherhood. But I absolutely detest the way they talk about using formula. They treat it like it's poison and it's so frustrating and offensive because there is a lot of that point of view in the world and it's very harmful to mothers who can't or won't nurse for whatever reason. It's the only book I can think of that bothered me for that kind of reason.

Sara Grace wrote: "So with the recent checkin about DNF books some have written about books that are in poor taste. Say the author was sexist or attempted to write a character that was supposed to be homophobic or ra..."

I'm not trying to bash you or anything but I just have a question about Small Great Things - should a white author not attempt to write characters of colour? Or was it just that the topic of the book central to race that is seemed illegitimate for Picoult to write about?

I listened to the audiobook of the book so maybe my take on the story was a little different - Ruth constantly having to bite her tongue, to keep her cool, questioning herself about her white friends/colleagues unintentional microaggressions, and calling her lawyer on her privilege...though I get why you feel it comes off as illegitimate too.

Sara Grace wrote: "...I can think of are Eligible: A Modern Retelling of Pride and Prejudice"

Why? I don't really see anything too bad about it.

Personally I think that the Pekkala series Eye of the Red Tsar is in poor taste. Sure, I guess they are exciting books, if you get past the tiny bit that the sympathetic main character is helping a man currently orchestrating an ethnic cleansing (in the earlier books, simple war in the later ones) against the main character's own people. But hey, what's a little genocide between friends, right, nothing important to be taken too seriously by foreign authors? It's not like historical novels are expected to follow even the basic historical facts, and this one certainly doesn't, even Pekkala's backstory is impossible. Though I guess it doesn't matter when the readers are completely oblivious about them, too, and think it's relatively accurate.

Hi, this review pretty much summed up my feelings about the book: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

But what about that other one, "Eligible"?

So for Eligible, it was multiple factors. First of all, I had just read The Annotated Pride and Prejudice, so maybe I was living too much in that world of the book still. Also, because it is a story we know, I had high expectations only to find that the author still wrote the characters in the same writing/language style of Jane Austen, even though it was supposed to be a contemporary tale? It seemed really far fetched. I'm open to recommendations to finish the book though, but from what I read and from reviews like this: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... I'm not sure I want to finish. This was the only case where I didn't finish a book because of a review.

Sara Grace wrote: "So for Eligible...It seemed really far fetched. I'm open to recommendations to finish the book though, but from what I read and from reviews like this: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... I'm not sure I want to finish. This was the only case where I didn't finish a book because of a review. r..."

I finished it, but I'm not quite sure why. It was a one-star read for sure. I don't mind a contemporary retelling, but this one seemed so crass. Caricatures instead of characters. And I felt that the author was trying too hard to insert variations of race and sexual orientation into the story just for the sake of political correctness. Those traits didn't flow well and I was left with the impression that the author was told to diversify so she said "ok, I'll make this character black, and this one trans" rather than truly feeling it was the right thing for the character.

And the final chapter just seemed completely out of place, like it was tacked on as an afterthought when they forgot to include it in the story.

I know a lot of people liked this book, but it wasn't for me.

Camilla wrote: "I'm not trying to bash you or anything but I just have a question about Small Great Things - should a white author not attempt to write characters of colour? Or was it just that the topic of the book central to race that is seemed illegitimate for Picoult to write about?"

One of the authors of color I follow on Twitter answered your first question like this (I have to paraphrase because I didn't write it down.

"Include us in your stories, but don't try to tell ours for us."

That made sense to me, but I'm not an author either.

Sara wrote: "Caricatures instead of characters. And I felt that the author was trying too hard to insert variations of race and sexual orientation into the story just for the sake of political correctness."

But I guess the problem with retelling something like P&P is that the same social mores no longer apply, so the author has to come up with something else if they are going to set it in today's world.

Brandyn wrote: "Camilla wrote: "I'm not trying to bash you or anything but I just have a question about Small Great Things - should a white author not attempt to write characters of colour? Or was it just that the..."

okay so it is the story of race that is the issue. I understand that.

Tytti wrote: "But I guess the problem with retelling something like P&P is that the same social mores no longer apply, so the author has to come up something else if they are going to set it in today's world. "

True, but I don't think this author did that well :)

Eligible was part of a series of retellings of Jane Austen's works by multiple authors. I haven't read the other ones yet but I wonder if there were rules to writing for the series? I'd like to give the author a second chance, especially since she lives locally, in St Louis.

Oh God, I completely agree about Small Great Things. I just finished that and hated it. It almost bordered on ignorant. Many of the reviewers said the same thing, and they were spot on IMO.

She meant well I think, so I give her credit for trying. I think she tried too hard, though! I'm glad I wasn't the only one that didn't like it, I felt like a horrible person for saying it, because of the subject of book. There are plenty of books by people of color that can say a lot more about the subject than she did - and many of them are non-fiction!

I haven't read small great things but I thoroughly enjoy Jodi picoults books. This is one that I'll probably be reading in my book club (it's on the short list) and this thread makes me think it will be an interesting discussion if only because I'll make it one lol I like to consider myself open to rethink my conceptions. If I'm not woke yet it's not for lack of trying it's more a product of my environment having to be completely rethought and reconsidered. I try to challenge my and others privilege and subconscious prejudices as often as I can so I'd imagine this will make for a good discussion regarding where the line is between a white author writing characters of colour as naturally inhabiting their world and a white author attempting to tell a story that they cannot understand in terms of nuance and experience.

Tara...I think it would be a great book for discussion, especially if a book club could pair it with another book. The first one to come to mind is Between the World and Me. It was written in 2015 and is only 152 pages. It was the local university's first year student read this past year. I think they could be paired together excellently for discussion.

Tara wrote: "where the line is between a white author writing characters of colour as naturally inhabiting their world and a white author attempting to tell a story that they cannot understand in terms of nuance and experience"

But it's important to notice that this isn't necessarily a racial issue, like my example shows. White authors sometimes write books about white people without understanding their experiences.

I hated reading Swiss Family Robinson back in university because I got tired of the father either killing or capturing every animal they came across plus the huge dollop of sexism. I had loved the Disney movie as a kid.

There was a Jodi Picoult novel that I hated pretty intensely - The Tenth Circle. I think society as a whole already believes that there are a large number of false rape accusations and this novel certainly doesn't help.

I hated ELIGIBLE, so glad I'm not the only one. Not only DNF but didn't get far. I also couldn't stand 50 Shades (sorry for all the fans out there) I tried to read it because I didn't think it was right to have an opinion without educating myself on the novel. I didn't even make it to the racy stuff because I found the writing so terrible. As a parent of teens I have heard over the past 4 years many teen girls discussing 50 shades. It's affect on their thought process regarding so many societal shifts and what "female power" is or is not concerns me. Finally I read a novel by the author of "the kept woman" I can't think of the title right now. I like her novels be amuse her descriptions are so vivid. The book I am thinking of was a murder mystery that led into the violent world of snuff films. It was way too graphic for me and disturbing with no purpose.

Platform Urrgh I just wanted to take a bath and get our of that man's head!

Tytti wrote: "Tara wrote: "where the line is between a white author writing characters of colour as naturally inhabiting their world and a white author attempting to tell a story that they cannot understand in t..."

Where does it end, though? I feel as long as the writer treats the subject matter with respect and dignity, anyone can write about anyone else.
Should male writers only write about males?
Should females only write about females?
I don't know *shrugs*

Megan wrote: "I feel as long as the writer treats the subject matter with respect and dignity, anyone can write about anyone else."

Well that's the problem, because often they don't treat the subject with respect, they falsify the people and their history/culture. Not that the readers usually know and/or care about that because it's "fiction".

Tytti wrote: "Megan wrote: "I feel as long as the writer treats the subject matter with respect and dignity, anyone can write about anyone else."

Well that's the problem, because often they don't treat the subj..."

"often" is not always. Some readers--not all--use books as jumping off points to research the things they read about. I don't think you should assume that readers don't "care about that because it's fiction" because that is not always the case--it almost sounds like you have a low opinion of readers! Hmph!
A writer should not be afraid to write about things because Reader A may not understand their materials. IF the subject matter speaks to the writer...they write.
This honestly sounds like something we'd never agree on.

Megan wrote: " I don't think you should assume that readers don't "care about that because it's fiction" because that is not always the case--it almost sounds like you have a low opinion of readers!"

Well that has been my experience, that many, if not most, won't care. "That's why it's called FICTION", has often been the response. And of course most of the time they won't even notice that there is anything wrong with the story. Also I don't see why I should have a better opinion about some readers than I actually have, it's not really an achievement.

And it's not about "understanding" any material, it's about not caring about the facts and the experiences those "other people" have and respecting that. Instead the authors just make up a story and set it somewhere "exotic", probably because those "other people" don't matter to them, either, so it doesn't matter if they are not correctly represented.

I haven't read it but I think If I Did It: Confessions of the Killer is in pretty bad taste. Like what was Harper Collins thinking? I realize the Goldman family got the rights to this book, but why would you (if you were innocent of murdering your wife) why would you want to write a hypothetical book about it?

One answer to Casey question! MONEY!

I really hated American Psycho. I don't mind violence etc in a book, but this one just seemed it was written for shock value first, with any nod to plot or message a distant afterthought.

I also really hated Roald Dahl's My Uncle Oswald...which is basically a story about rape, but with the writing style of his children's books which I had always loved so much. It's really put me off Dahl. I read my son Charlie and the Chocolate Factory this year and it wasn't as shiny for me any more. I'm reading another of Dahl's adult books this year, to see if he can be redeemed for me...but I'm worried it might backfire!

I think part of the problem is reader perspective/bias. For instance, I'm Chinese-American (my parents immigrated to the USA from Singapore shortly before I was born). If a non-Chinese person writes about Chinese-Americans, and it doesn't match my experience, I might say, "He got it wrong. That's bad writing." If a Chinese-American person writes the same thing, I might instead say, "Huh, I guess his experience was different from mine." I'd be more inclined to view it charitably, since (probably) an author wouldn't write something contrary to their own experience.

So I understand how non-minority authors would be afraid to write minority stories, out of fear they'll "get it wrong."

But honestly, I think everyone should feel free to write all kinds of stories, so long as you do your research and treat your subject with respect. That includes whites writing about non-whites, as well as lots of non-racial things. If you want to write about grad students in academia, or high-powered finance executives, or teenagers struggling with drug addiction, then go for it -- as long as you put in effort to get the details right.

And, on the flip side: If readers/viewers feel that a work is inaccurate or inauthentic, they're free to dislike it and rate it low, but it shouldn't be cause to bring out the pitchforks unless it's something legitimately toxic.

So I just want to say, you shouldn't feel horrible for liking a movie just because some people find it inauthentic, and they also shouldn't be making you feel horrible. If people are saying "It's inauthentic because it mis-portrays ______" then you can learn from it, and learning is a good thing.

Thanks for your response, Drakeryn, to my post that I deleted at the time you were writing this. I had decided my comments were unnecessary. But I like your response. It made me feel better.

Drakeryn wrote: "I think part of the problem is reader perspective/bias. For instance, I'm Chinese-American (my parents immigrated to the USA from Singapore shortly before I was born). If a non-Chinese person write..."

Thanks so much for this well-written and thoughtful response.

Sarah wrote: "I really hated American Psycho. I don't mind violence etc in a book, but this one just seemed it was written for shock value first, with any nod to plot or message a distant afterthoug..."

Sarah I totally agree on American Psycho. Absolutely horrible. Sometimes I wish I could wash my brain of some things this is top of the list.

Casey wrote: "I haven't read it but I think If I Did It: Confessions of the Killer is in pretty bad taste. Like what was Harper Collins thinking? I realize the Goldman family got the rights to thi..."

I think any book that is trying to make money off of a tragedy (not a historical one, but one recent enough that those affected by it are still alive) is in bad taste. It's why I don't read true crime.