Paths to Wholeness discussion

If desire is suffering, how does one dream about the future without a future of suffering?

I get your point.... but where do you get the idea that desire is suffering? The Buddhists say that it's attachment, aversion, and indifference that are the root causes of suffering. Desire, according to poet Stanley Kunitz, is what makes the engine go.

It is the basic of the four noble truths of Buddhism. The idea is that by craving, you are not content - if you have desire you are bound to the wheel of rebirth and thus suffering.

Bjorn,
Present day readers may not understand that some of the ideas we have today are the same as Gotama's ideas, but couched in different terms.

When Gotama spoke of craving, he was speaking of what we call addiction. They didn't have that word, back then, but they surely saw the effects; and because there was no effective treatment of it, addiction laid waste to the society on a grand scale. I believe that is the practical level of "desire" that the Gotama was speaking of when he said that desire had to be killed to end suffering. Desires, in those instances of addiction, caused suffering.

I do not think the Gotama taught us to fear the natural aspects of ourselves. He taught, rather, that natural desire is just that, and to achieve buddhahood (which few people, even back then, chose to seek) we had to go beyond even those natural desires. That path was not for everyone, as it isn't for everyone today.

He recognized that beginning the struggle to reach buddhahood set us up to see the suffering caused by addiction, as well as the more mundane errors in judgement desire causes us in everyday life. It seems to me that he knew that laying out the path to enlightenment would benefit even those who made it only just so far down the rabbit hole. So he set up the Four Noble Truths as a foundation on which to end suffering on a holistic, and day-by-day levels, depending on the commitment of the individual.

Desire, in and of itself, is no more dangerous than your hand or your foot. Detachment allows you to see it in perspective, and shape your behavior accordingly. It is perfectly fine to act upon your desires, as long as your actions are in alignment with your spiritual ideals.

I hope that helps.

Doc Pruyne

To elaborate on what Doc Pruyne's excellent summary above, this is how Thich Nhat Hanh explains the Four Noble Truths in his book The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching: Transforming Suffering into Peace, Joy, and Liberation:

The First Noble Truth is suffering (dukkha). The root meaning of the Chinese character for suffering is "bitter." Happiness is sweet; suffering is bitter. We all suffer to some extent. We have some malaise in our body and our mind. We have to recognize and acknowledge the presence of this suffering and touch it. To do so, we may need the help of a teacher and a Sangha, friends in the practice.

The Second Noble Truth is the origin, roots, nature, creation, or arising (samudaya) of suffering. After we touch our suffering, we need to look deeply into it to see how it came to be. We need to recognize and identify the spiritual and material foods we have ingested that are causing us to suffer.

The Third Noble Truth is the cessation (nirodha) of creating suffering by refraining from doing the things that make us suffer. This is good news! The Buddha did not deny the existence of suffering, but he also did not deny the existence of joy and happiness. If you think that Buddhism says, "Everything is suffering and we cannot do anything about it," that is the opposite of the Buddha's message. The Buddha taught us how to recognize and acknowledge the presence of suffering, but he also taught the cessation of suffering. If there were no possibility of cessation, what is the use of practicing? The Third Truth is that healing is possible.

The Fourth Noble Truth is the path (marga) that leads to refraining from doing the things that cause us to suffer. This is the path we need the most. The Buddha called it the Noble Eightfold Path. The Chinese translate it as the "Path of Eight Right Practices": Right View, Right Thinking, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Diligence, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration.

Doc Pruyne,
A very attuned sense of spirituality.
It helped a lot, thank you!

David,
Thank you for the clear explanation, thank you.

Thanks, Armando.

Succinct explanation of that central kernal of understanding. Gets past the popular aphorisms.

Doc