The F-word discussion
TALKING POINTS
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In the News...
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Like this.
"In other words, if SB 5 is passed, you could be evicted in the state of Missouri for having an abortion, using birth control, or becoming pregnant while unmarried."
That supplied my daily dose of WTF.
IKR? I always figured that the far-right was too in love with the "good" ol' days, but the headlong rush to take us back to the Bronze Age has really sped up lately. Getting so sick & tired of hearing about the "good" old days--or as it's put some times "back when America was great"--imo, the "good" old days were only good if your skin was the "right" color, you didn't frequent the "wrong" house of worship (or none), and you peed standing up. So, you know, the hell with the "good" old days.
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I read an article recently--can't remember where, maybe bigthink.com? I've gotta start writing more of this stuff down, sigh--& the guy had been studying the alt-right's many anti-feminist (hell, anti-FEMALE) ramblings which all seemed to be pushing the idea that not only do women not deserve equal rights to men, in fact women should have fewer rights than they have now because all women (even poor women) have done *thoughout history* is "sit on their asses while the men do all the work even back in hunter/gatherer days becuz the men were the ones who hunted & brought the meat home which is more important than the gathering of the silly grains/berries, that you can live without grains etc. but not meat so men are therefore more imporant." (Which is totally untrue about meat vs. grains, btw; ask any nutritionist.) And not even to get into how much work having & raising the kids is, not even to go there, it's actually a matter of record, incl. recent studies of peoples in New Guinea or remote other places who are living about as close to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle as is possible these days, that women have always worked just as hard as the men, bringing home turtles & smaller animals if the men came home empty-handed. And all the way up to & thru the Indust. Revolution, whether on a farm or in a factory, women put in at least as many hours a day as the men.But anyway, this guy doing the study said something about all this "history" he was studying, there was something he couldn't at first put his finger on how all the articles by these diff. a$$holes kept hitting a familiar note. So he went back through all his notes on it & figured it out: he said the "history of how women have always done much less work than men", these "historical facts" these guys kept describing was that post-World War 2, 1950s American suburban fantasy that was only available to some middle- & upper-class whites for about 20 yrs. (if even that long). That's what these guys essentially keep describing over & over, that 50s suburban bullsh*t that wasn't even avail. to everybody and ask any historian or anthropologist or sociologist or biologist about something that happened for a 20yr stretch (if that long) & they'd laugh at you; 20 yrs is nothing in the overall scheme of even just history.
But I too am afraid that this "Make American Great Again" bullshit is referring to that suburban 50s fantasy that some of these worthless anti-feminists are fixated on. You know that old saying: Those who refuse to study the past are condemned to repeat it"? It should be amended to add, "But the past must never be studied through rose-colored glasses but rather an electron microscope."
Sorry to go on so long & thanks for reading...been feeling more & more as if we're f*cked...
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Yes, that's exactly right, people refer to the Golden Age of the 50s suburbia in America as being this glorious thing. Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique (for all of its other flaws) came out of that era, which is good because I don't think otherwise anyone would be taking any consideration into just how freaking awful that time was for women. (Again, a limited demographic, but it was a start.)
When I look at information about the 1950s, I see repression and oppression all over the place. And everyday it seems there's one more news article indicating how much closer we are to returning to that. :/
I am grateful for the vocal masses who are fighting against that. To my knowledge, anyway, there was less of that in the 1950s outside of small minority.
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(Trigger warning)
This bill in North Carolina, if passed, would legally allow men to finish sex even if a woman revokes consent.
This loophole tells survivors they don't have autonomy over their body, [Angelica Wind, executive director of Our Wind, an agency for victims of sexual violence] tells Broadly. "Aside from perpetrators not being held accountable, when women cannot revoke consent, then we are telling them violence can be perpetrated against them if they consented to begin with and then had a change of heart."
On an upbeat note, Title IX turned 45 yesterday. There were a number of 'local' articles and stories in the press yesterday and some today that caught my attention,A link to one such item from USA Today:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...
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There still are concerns, certainly. While Title IX permeates every suburban girl’s life, girls and young women in less-privileged areas of urban and rural America have been missed. Men, not women, still get hired for many of the plum women’s college coaching jobs. And noted Title IX attorney and Olympic gold medalist Nancy Hogshead-Makar worries that, “without some heavy back-peddling soon, the Trump administration could cripple the Department of Education for generations to come.”
One of my early thoughts after the election was wondering how quickly Title IX would go away now. Hopefully we can hold onto it and it can continue to do such great work. I especially hope we/it can do more for less-privileged demographics.
Lynn wrote: "I read an article recently--can't remember where, maybe bigthink.com? I've gotta start writing more of this stuff down, sigh--& the guy had been studying the alt-right's many anti-feminist (hell, a..."You made some very good points here. I have read too much about women's roles in history in terms of keeping the family fed and thriving to buy into their being "lesser." From the days of cavemen to settling the plains, women did as much as men in terms of providing food, and much more by giving birth and caring for family. There is a strong instinct in women to "nourish" the family which men don't have, and women worked very hard to keep the family intact. Then it made sense when you pointed out that this reference was to a very small era (20 years) when women did indeed stay home and vacuum in pearls and high heels. How idealistic for a man! Come home to a clean home, nice meal, coiffed wife, behaved children, friendly dog...put on the slippers and read the paper until wifey announced dinner. How very perfect for a man--and that's the perfection this generation of misogynistic men yearn for. Sorry, I get really nuts when I think about that era; and I think that kind of subjugation did much to bring about the Feminist Movement. Women rebelled! And did you know the ERA never got ratified? Thanks so much Phyllis Schlafly for reinforcing men's thinking that a woman's place is in the home. If you care to read my Huff Post blog about how much damage she did to the feminist movement, here's the link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rebecca... And finally, let's not forget that old adage: Men work from sun to sun, but woman's work is never done.
El wrote: "In sadly related news...(Trigger warning)
This bill in North Carolina, if passed, would legally allow men to finish sex even if a woman revokes consent.
This loophole tells survivors they don't ..."
I read this. It's sickening. So even if a woman is in pain, scared, feeling threatened, or just plain bored, she can't stop the male from finishing his business. Just how sick is this that "No!" and "Stop!" and "You're hurting me!" aren't able to be invoked in revoking consent. To me, this blurs the line between rape and consent.
I read this article today and was wondering what everyone's thoughts are on it.http://ideas.ted.com/beware-of-femini...
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I like what she said here, specifically about Feminism Lite. I'm not sure if that's the term I would use, but terminology and definition has long been an issue when it comes to feminism and the various feminist movements throughout history.
Her examples made me think about how men are treated when they are out alone with their children. If a man is holding a screaming child in a check-out line at the grocery store, people compliment him on his parenting skills, or coo or comment on how difficult it must be to go to the store alone with such a young child, how lucky the child is, etc. etc. When a woman is holding a screaming child in a check-out line at the grocery store, people tend to look at them both in disgust, pass judgments on the mother for not keeping the child better in line, etc. etc.
People tend to think the man with the child is "babysitting for the day" instead of "parenting". Like, wow, what a great man to give his wife the day off for the day by taking the child shopping. We tend not to think that when we see a mother out and about with their child, whether it's behaving or not. (Of course all of this is even worse when it's people of color with a crying child in stores.)
That's a bit rambly way of me saying I do agree with what Adichie said here. The more I read the news, the more I see comments like what Adichie pointed out about Theresa May's husband "allowing" her to shine.
All of that being said, while I appreciate and respect what Adichie wrote, I wonder what her solution is. But then it's a manifesto - do manifestos always have solutions? Or is it enough to bring up with the issues are and let us all work it out on our own? (Which I am fine with, don't get me wrong.)
What did you think of it, Elyse?
El wrote: "I read this article today about street harassment. This is a topic I find very interesting and, sadly, something I also have to deal with with quite a bit of frequency since I commute by public tra..."I would like to see street harassment feature prominently in the political campaigns of state and municipal candidates, I'd like to see "equal access to public spaces," as it is called by Hollaback https://www.ihollaback.org/ be declared the human right that it is. Specifically, I'd like to see female cops in plain clothes deployed to stop and arrest the harassers and molesters in their tracks. Furthermore, I think it's possible to get this issue into the campaigns of mayors and governors. If an army of progressives runs for office in the wake of the Trump phenomenon, I think we should lobby for its inclusion
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Interested specifically about wanting to see female cops in plain clothes. Can you talk about that in a bit more detail? Do you mean that you feel female cops would crack down on street harassment more than male cops?
El wrote: "Interesting idea, Beverly. Unfortunately with the way things are going in the current administration, that's probably the least likely thing to happen. But I don't want to give up hope entirely. We..."No, what I mean is that the female cops in plain clothes would get harassed. They should be wearing hidden cameras to capture the incident. Then if the harassment is serious enough, they would arrest or fine the catcallers, with a backup posted nearby of course. This way, the catcallers would have to wonder whether the woman they're about to harass might be a cop, just like people have to wonder whether the prostitute they've hired is a cop. I think this would give them pause before they prey on us. And having it recorded would prevent them from framing guys who really didn't do anything.
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El wrote: "Oh! Sorry I misunderstood initially. :)"That's okay. I really have no idea if it would work, because I know nothing about policing. It just seems like an idea worth considering. I know that the national level would be hostile to it right now, but this is the kind of thing that would have to be done locally anyway. Some cities might be receptive to try it. But there would have to be a bigger awareness campaign first.
There's the Taylor Swift trial. She's not on trial as much as an incident involving her being at the heart of multiple lawsuits.The reports sound like she more than stood up to the lawyers trying to defend their client who was fired for the groping. That she had to at all is an illustration of many issues that continue at obviously all levels.
Such an occurrence under the conditions described are pretty damn stupid. I would also question the intent of many of the attorneys involved beyond just profit. There's really no defense after one looks at the photos and realizes there were witnesses and further Ms. Swift immediately had her security remove the offender from the premises. No delay or afterthoughts. Even with that, she still was grabbed ????
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I love her decision to counter-sue for $1, by the way, showing that it wasn't about money, it was about what was right.
(If anyone hasn't heard the news, but want to know more, here's a quick Slate.com run-down on her testimony. Picked that article just because it was the first to pop up on my search while I'm at work, but there's plenty of other coverage of the trial and op-ed pieces if Slate.com is not one of your preferred or trusted news sources.)
El wrote: "Thanks for bringing up the Swift trial, CD. I can't believe she's even had to defend herself, but that's just so sadly typical in cases of assault. Like you said, there were witnesses and photos. I..."In a better world, we would all boycott men who were caught harassing or assaulting us. The punishment would be being shunned and rejected by women. But alas, it seems to be much more complicated than that.
On a different note, with the start of school across the US the topic of dress codes keeps appearing in various forms. I've also seen two changes in corporate dress codes this summer that seemingly primarily affect women. i.e., no more jeans of any type. Several women that I personally am acquainted with had worn dressy jeans at least a couple of days a week and now have a new formula that has to be observed. Some are not very happy as now their work wardrobe is changed arbitrarily after 10+ years.
There was even a story this summer about professional women golfers suddenly having their clothing choices questioned. Not the men mind you, but the women.
When I started working, there were assumptions in most business environments as to what people wore. Suits for Men and Dresses and Skirts for Women. Pantsuits or Blazers and skirts for Women also passed muster. The change to corporate casual and casual Fridays never seemed to harm anyone. Even about 30 years ago the real conservative environments like banks and IBM had really loosened up.
Are dress codes necessary or just one more power play?
CD wrote: "On a different note, with the start of school across the US the topic of dress codes keeps appearing in various forms. I've also seen two changes in corporate dress codes this summer that seeming..."
Unfortunately, dress codes can be necessary because some people will show up literally in what they slept in. The devil is in the details of the dress code. That's a tough one. Maybe 1 way to get around rulers and skirt lengths for school uniforms would be to switch from skirts to trousers. I'm starting to wonder about this idea of girls always being required to show their legs. Ditto for businesses. We should be allowed to wear pants, never forced always into skirts.
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I'm proud of the ones I see who wear sweat pants underneath their skirt. I'm sure they remove them once they get in the school, but it's ridiculous they even have to take that measure instead of wearing pants like the boys wear.
I've never had a dress code in school, but the few people I know who have had a dress code have almost always felt they helped them. If they have an outfit they're supposed to wear, it takes away a lot of the other societal pressures of dressing a certain way for popularity reasons, etc.
And if everyone looks the same, no one stands out, which I have heard from many makes them feel safer and less likely objectified.
Though I have also heard that those who wear school uniforms will find ways to individualize their uniforms to set them apart anyway...
As far as the corporate world, I personally haven't found much difficulty conforming to "business casual", but I have worked with some who have pushed the boundaries (as far as being way more casual than business). I think the concept is outdated if we're still conforming to "suits for me and dresses/skirts for women." In a time when we're fighting for gender-neutral bathrooms, I don't understand why we can't also be fighting for gender-neutral dress codes (if dress codes continue to need to exist).
Sorry, I am feeling sort of wonky today, so apologies if I sound inconsistent or all over the place.
All this being said, I would still like the responsibility to be less on girls and women to dress and behave a certain way and more on the boys and men who can't control themselves around a certain style of dress.
There's really no single answer to the dress code issue. I recently read an article about boys at a private school in England wearing girls' uniform skirts to school because it had gotten so hot and they weren't allowed to wear shorts (not much air conditioning in England). I like the idea of uniforms for school, but then when you add in the seasons, you've got to get several sets, and that's more expensive. But I do object to any dress code that requires women and girls to wear skirts. Especially young girls who can't play comfortably on the playground in skirts. This is what has to go. Slacks and shorts (knee length maybe) should be the default for both boys and girls.
This is really interesting. In India, we have been seeing an opposite trend for the past few years. Here, skirts are being banned from school uniforms. Sadly, the motivation for that is not the comfort of girls, but rather the conservative notions of the society. Due to the rise of right-wing nationalism, we have the authorities changing the uniforms from Western wear (skirts) to the ethnic salwar-kameez ( balloon pants and a long shirt). But hypocritically, the change is only for girls' uniforms, which shows that it has nothing to do with a newfound love for ethnic fashion.Teenage girls feel awful being made to wear these hideous uniforms. And as if that was not enough, even their hairstyles are being policed to an astonishing degree. My sister's teachers have asked all the girls to braid their hair. Not even a ponytail will do. Teachers forcibly braid the hair of girls who flout this rule. I find this reprehensible.
As that late, great science fiction writer Sheri Tepper said in her book The Fresco, "The lustful who punish beauty would be wiser to control lust."
Noted '2nd Generation' feminist and writer who pioneered the Sexual Politics school of thought. Kate Millett, Sexual Politics author, dies at 82 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-ca...
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Kate Millett, Sexual Politics author, dies at 82 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-ca..."
Thanks for sharing that here. I heard about it yesterday but was surprised and saddened, and I forgot to mention it.
Gloria E. Anzaldua has a google doodle of the day on September 26, 2017. Nice 'Billboard' article re: the Doodle and Anzaldua. There is also a link to a YouTube bio piece in the article.http://www.billboard.com/articles/col...
El wrote: "I read this article today about street harassment. This is a topic I find very interesting and, sadly, something I also have to deal with with quite a bit of frequency since I commute by public tra..."El wrote: "I read this article today about street harassment. This is a topic I find very interesting and, sadly, something I also have to deal with with quite a bit of frequency since I commute by public tra..."
I agree. It's shocking that women should be made to feel this way.
I ride public transportation every day for two hours each way,...I don't recall seeing once a incident of sexual harassment but of course I'm not female, (I'm not blind either) There was once a incident when the bus driver stop the bus to go tell a couple of passengers to cut it out but I think that was a consensual situation. There is also the daily crazies but I haven't seen anything sexual just crazies being crazy not saying it doesn't happen just wondering if we (west coast LA) are less of a testosterone city than your city or do you think if I was only a female I would experience street harassment that it's much higher incident than can be seen by a casual observer?
Mod
I've never been to west coast LA, so cannot speak to that specifically.
I have, however, lived in several places, but experienced the most harassment (due to being in the right age range while living in those places) in a college town (pop around 85,000 at the time) in the midwest and now in Pittsburgh (pop over 300,000 currently).
Don't forget that street harassment does not need to be inherently sexual. There is a man in my neighborhood who appears to be waiting now for me on my walk home from the bus so he can tell me to smile when I walk past. We've exchanged some words now that it's happened three days this week alone, and the next step I will have to take is to file a complaint. It's not specifically a sexual thing to tell someone to smile; however, it is gender-related as he is not asking men passersby to smile.
Also, you may not see these things, but that doesn't mean they aren't happening. A lot of people do not feel comfortable responding when someone says something to them, or are so surprised that they react the person wants them to (such as smiling when a man says "Smile!" as only one example; ignoring whistles from across the street or down the block is another example). They don't do it necessarily to comply but because they are nervous to react.
I do believe if you were a woman, you would experience more street harassment, or at least have more awareness of it happening around you.
I want to also point out that this is not specific only to women. I've seen street harassment towards gay men and boys by other men and women.
Just last weekend I saw a couple young men make racist comments towards a few Asian college-aged students who were raising money on the corner for a cause. This is generally not considered by everyone to be street harassment because it's not gender-based, but due to the inequality between the races (and the fact that the young men who made the comments were clearly flexing their race-muscles since they were Caucasian and felt it was okay) I do consider that in the same boat because of the power inequalities.
However, as a female, I do feel street harassment very acutely. It may happen around you more frequently than you are aware on your public transportation, but because it's not something you've experienced on a personal level, it may just not be on your radar the same way.
Often women feel the need to change their route when harassed. Sometimes just seeing a crowd of men up the street can cause discomfort when walking past in fear one of them will say or do something. We've been conditioned (societally) to smile and be pleasant, discouraged to make waves when we feel uncomfortable, or flat out frightened to upset the person who is making us feel that way. So just because someone doesn't respond, or seems to be compliant, does not mean that they are. It may just mean they are frightened and want it to stop, and the fastest way, sometimes, to get that sort of attention to stop is to not make a big deal of it or react to it - which is messed up when you think about it.
Thank you and good connection about relation to racial comments I didn't clue into before as well, yes I'm not as aware because of my gender but culturally I do feel some countries (I believe the article was about Egypt) due to religious and cultural baggage are worse at this sort of thing than others. I tend to thing probably incorrectly that west coast tends to be far less rigid in it's sexual roles and cultural morays therefore I conclude street harassment is lesser here than there sort of thing, I know this is lazy reasoning and therefore incorrect but it's not a issue I think about too often. So the question I ask is admitting I'm ignorant of this topic and is there others who can say they feel (this happens more often here than there etc.) probably too broad a question to warrant a serious response. Just glad I'm not raising my daughter up in a country Japan, Egypt, parts of South and Central America where due to male dominated culture women harassment is very common. Under the present administration not sure how much longer before we join this list of worse offenders (I suspect some states are already high up there)
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In the wake of ongoing allegations of sexual misconduct against disgraced movie mogul Harvey Weinstein, Judd has teamed up with Teen Vogue in a new video to help give tips on how to combat unwanted sexual advances.
The video can be seen here in this People.com article.
It's worth checking out, I think.
Also, I just want to say that I am so proud of Teen Vogue. They have taken a wonderful stance over the past year or two in promoting fantastic material for younger readers. Back in my day of reading the magazine, I might find one or two small articles of relevance, but it seems they have done so much more over the past couple of years which I love to see. My teenage self would have loved it if it was available at the time, but my adult self is happy to see it exists now at least.
There's been a bit of mansplaining going on in the Washington Post lately. There was an article a few weeks ago which derided romance as a genre. Talking about how ridiculous some of the plots were. I'm wondering how the male writer of the article could be so blind to the ridiculousness of crime fiction?
It's fiction. It's not supposed to be real.
Then last week another writer quipped about the fact that Jane Austen wrote romance but remained single. A couple of authors fired back about the number of well known crime authors who had never murdered anyone.
It really worries me that popular fiction for women is treated with such disdain. One of my favorite authors is Penny Reid. She's a very smart person ... she has a proper science degree ... worked for the CDC before deciding to write fulltime, and the books she writes are clever, witty and intelligent...and they're romance.
Anyway...that's my rant for the day. Now it's christmas time. These arrived in the post today.
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International Women's Day 2018.March 8, 2018 is the Date and the news stories are starting to appear. Google's Doodle is commemorative starting today.
McDonalds (I read the financials pages and saw this story, never eat the stuff. I live tooooo close to McD's to want it) is Flipping the Arches!.
http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/07/news/...
What have you seen or are doing to mark the date?
Mod
I know last year the suggestion was to wear the color red for International Women's Day. I'll admit I'm out of the loop this year because of life, but I am planning on wearing red tomorrow since I will be at work all day long and am unable to participate any other way.
Incidentally, I don't watch a lot of television, but noticed that on one of the MTV channels, they're doing two-hour blocks of music by women artists throughout the day for Women's History Month (March). It's been fun when I come across all my favorite female artists from the 90s, at least.
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El wrote: "I just read that purple is the color of solidarity for March 8 this year, if anyone is interested."Mhmmm, there's that purple dress shirt I don't wear very often . . .
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She's been one of my favorite people for many years. I lived within walking distance of the Science Center at the time Jane Goodall's Wild Chimpanzees came out, so I spent several self-dates in the Omnimax theater there to see it. Then I bought the DVD.
I'm looking forward to seeing this documentary - which came out in 2017 - tonight.
Anyone else planning on watching it?
The CIA now has a female leader. The new director is the first woman to lead the Central Intelligence Agency. With her background her confirmation may be interesting to say the least!
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I also find it somewhat disturbing as one of the issues is that so many people have been looking online for information. Yes, there are plenty of reliable websites out there, but there's also a lot of pseudoscience and mumbo-jumbo. Are young women finding the right information online? Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon.
I'm glad the book has prevailed as long as it has, and that the most current version (from 2011) remains available to readers.
I saw this the other day https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...
since I saw some of the books listed on there that we've read in this group.
I tend to agree with the article. We need to move beyond this but also from reading French I understand it's much more complex than that. I was surprised at the end of her 4 volume From Eve to Dawn that she leaned toward anarchism as a way to move beyond systems/states.
Does anyone else get the feeling that our whole drama narrative/fiction/way of approaching drama is perpetuating some of this?
I still want to read some of the books on here and they did suggest some that looked really interesting.
since I saw some of the books listed on there that we've read in this group.
I tend to agree with the article. We need to move beyond this but also from reading French I understand it's much more complex than that. I was surprised at the end of her 4 volume From Eve to Dawn that she leaned toward anarchism as a way to move beyond systems/states.
Does anyone else get the feeling that our whole drama narrative/fiction/way of approaching drama is perpetuating some of this?
I still want to read some of the books on here and they did suggest some that looked really interesting.
CD wrote: "The CIA now has a female leader. The new director is the first woman to lead the Central Intelligence Agency. With her background her confirmation may be interesting to say the least!"
Ummm her background in torture?
https://theintercept.com/2018/05/09/j...
I can't see this as progress.
Ummm her background in torture?
https://theintercept.com/2018/05/09/j...
I can't see this as progress.
El wrote: "I found this news sad. Our Bodies, Ourselves for the New Century, which has been in print since the 1970s, will no longer be updated due to "financial troubles."
I also find it somewh..."
I thought this might be trouble as well but with a 17 yr old kid that knows more than I did or do I'm going to have to trust all is well with what you can find on the Internet. heh if you know where to look and they don't muck it up with taking down Net Neutrality
I also find it somewh..."
I thought this might be trouble as well but with a 17 yr old kid that knows more than I did or do I'm going to have to trust all is well with what you can find on the Internet. heh if you know where to look and they don't muck it up with taking down Net Neutrality
Aretha Franklin, dead at 76 years of age.An icon that brought feminism and civil rights together and demanded R.E.S.P.E.C.T. and got it!
RIP.
The F-word
Books mentioned in this topic
Our Bodies, Ourselves for the New Century (other topics)Our Bodies, Ourselves for the New Century (other topics)
Dear Ijeawele, or A Feminist Manifesto in Fifteen Suggestions (other topics)
The Feminine Mystique (other topics)
I'm not sure if I'm particularly surprised by what the study reveals. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Your own experiences that you'd like to share?
This woman's description of how it feels sums up my feelings exactly: