Reading the Detectives discussion

Welcome to our July read

Published in 1961 The Mirror Crack’d From Side to Side sees St Mary Mead enter the Sixties, with all of the changes of modernity and development. Dolly Bantry is now widowed and is forced to sell her manor house to a rich movie star. Other social changes include a new housing development, which is viewed with great suspicion by the villagers, who dislike change.

The glamour of movie stars made this a perfect vehicle for Hollywood to adapt as a movie, which they did in 1980 with Elizabeth Taylor as Marina Gregg and Angela Lansbury as Miss Marple. It was later adapted by the BBC with Joan Hickson in the title and, again, with Julia McKenzie as Miss Marple. The book has also been used as a radio drama on Radio 4 and has even been re-set in Calcutta by Rituparno Ghosh, re-titled, “Subho Mahurat.”

The plot was inspired by a real life event, involving American actress Gene Tierney. There is a link below, but please only look at this if you have already read the book, as it indirectly reveals spoilers!

https://lisawallerrogers.com/tag/gene...

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread

I already finish the book, it was amazing as always. It was impossible to believe miss marple will be at home sick, for her a murder is the best cure. It was nice to find her a little be different from the previous books, she's older and inspector Craddock too, she change but not in a bad way. I think it was another grate story. I watched the tv series and to be honest I don't get a lot of things now when I finished te book its everything more clear. I enjoy it.

I didn't know the book was inspired from a real story it was really interesting, and sad at the same time. She was so brave for be there and she suffer so much. Its unbelievable.

Good to hear you enjoyed it, Dorota. I didn't realise the book was inspired by a real story until yesterday, when I did a bit of investigating to set up the thread. Did anyone know the back story?

Interesting that the story is so close to the reality - I wonder if Gene Tierney ever knew about the book and what she thought of it?

I didn't know about the real story either- but enjoyed the book very much. AC has used the idea of the murderer making herself out to be the intended victim before- one which we've read in the Marple challenge already and one other that i can think of- but I wouldn't have suspected it if I hadn't remembered the plot.

LadyC, unfortunately I guessed the killer right away because of the similarity with another book (which shall be nameless!) so I was a bit disappointed with the mystery element of this one, but I still enjoyed it for the characters. If I hadn't recently read the other book with the similar twist I'm sure I would have been more puzzled.

Sadly, I also remembered the ending, but I still enjoyed reading the story. I really enjoyed meeting Dolly Bantry again.

I remembered the ending too, as soon as she met Mrs Babcock,but it was interesting to meet the characters again, some old and some new.

Judy wrote: "LadyC, unfortunately I guessed the killer right away because of the similarity with another book (which shall be nameless!) so I was a bit disappointed with the mystery element of this one, but I s..."

I think even if I had suspected- the little twist with the husband being her first husband may have thrown me off track a bit.

Susan wrote: "Sadly, I also remembered the ending, but I still enjoyed reading the story. I really enjoyed meeting Dolly Bantry again."

Me too- I enjoyed her enjoyment of the whole thing- what had been done to the house, and the murder. This time she would have had more fun since she didn't have to worry about suspicions like last time.

I found it interesting that AC chose to use their house for a second murder- and one which was actually committed there this time.

Really enjoyed the book. Interesting how AC brought in the modern changes in the 1960's, the new housing development, the hoover.

Excellent! I remembered the ending only toward the very end so spent a lot of time trying to figure out the murderer.

Was the male secretary involved in some way? Why was he out looking for Cherry's friend (Grace? Gladys?, the one who knew the spilt drink was not accidental)? The only thing I can think of was that either Marina or her husband (Judd? I'm terrible with names!) sent him to bring her to their house - probably to be murdered. And do we really know who killed the two additional people? I may need to reread the ending!

You are just like me, Sandy! I tend to worry less about these things. If I am rushing ahead, then I know I am enjoying the book and Christie can really carry a plot.

Wend wrote: "Really enjoyed the book. Interesting how AC brought in the modern changes in the 1960's, the new housing development, the hoover."

Yes, interesting to see the vacuum cleaner being the latest technology and Miss M's distrust of it compared to using a dustpan and brush! Mind you, dragging one of those enormous old vacuums around would have been nearly as exhausting as using a brush anyway...

Yes, housework was really labour intensive then - especially washing clothes.

When I was at boarding school in the 1970s, we still used to wash our clothes with big hunks of soap and then put them through a mangle - Miss Marple would have been proud of us. We could send clothes to the laundry if we wanted, but they tended to starch the jeans with the creases in the wrong place, which a 70s teenager couldn't put up with, lol.

I remember using a mangle when I was a child on holiday, and we stayed in a house which had one. It was the highlight of my summer!

I know a mangle as a wringer in the US and I just barely remember my mother using one before she got her 'modern' washer - a moveable appliance that got rolled close to the sink and had a built in spinner. The clothes went on the line to dry.

My mum never had a washing machine. She used a boiler and mangle all her life.she used to say everyone moaned about their washing machines breaking down so she wouldn't have one When I was young I used to help by getting the washing out of the boiler by putting it steaming hot through the mangle ,rushing it to the sink so she could rinse it .Then when rinsed I would take it back to the mangle ,and she would peg it out on the washing line
Numerous times we offered to get her a washing machine but she just wouldn't have one. She said her washing was cleaner and it kept her fit. Everything that couldn't be boiled was hand washed and left to drip.

Washing by hand and cleaning with a brush and pan does give one good exercise, though, don't you think?

Susan wrote: "Sadly, I also remembered the ending, but I still enjoyed reading the story. I really enjoyed meeting Dolly Bantry again."

oh, me too! She's wonderful, and in the two Miss Marple Joan Hickson films she appears in the actress is *perfect*!

( is the other)

Dolly Bantry is a great character. Still being asked about that body in the library I noticed and still having to explain it :)

It was interesting to read this novel with the Tennyson quote in the title, as I'm currently (very slowly ) reading his selected poems.

There's a note in the edition I've got that he completely rewrote the last verse of The Lady of Shalott after a review pointed out the original wording wasn't as great as the rest of the poem - so he wrote the new ending that Christie quotes at the end of the book.

I shall have to search amongst my boxes of books to find this one to re-read. I recall being particularly interested in the plot as it adopted a topic that raises the morality of what was seen as one character as strength, but is in reality selfishness. I recall a woman being furious at a boy who did something similar, exposing her to the same possibility that affected Marina Gregg.

Somewhere in one of the posts the racism etc. in Agatha Christie's novels was raised. I find this an interesting comment as I'd like to study AC and her writing as in some ways forward looking. For example, I wonder if in reality she addresses racism by making some of the racist remarks an exposure of the limited mind behind them rather than an endorsement?

I didn't take part in the read of this, but was thinking about the book this morning. It strikes me that the famous 'Lady of Shalott' look that 'my doom has come upon me' does not fit terribly well with the eventual solution. Marina Gregg is not seeing her doom in the sense of someone who will destroy her life, but someone who had already ruined her life and must be punished - someone for whom she herself is in fact Nemesis.

Agatha Christie's Notebooks suggest that an awful lot of AC's books were written with several solutions in mind and I wonder if those Lady of Shalott references were written originally for one of these other solutions. For instance, the whole business of Arthur Badcock being her previous husband. Someone from her past who she had cast off would be more likely to be her 'doom'. Perhaps when she settled on the German measles solution (which cropped up in her notebooks for years waiting for a book to fit it in), she couldn't face dropping the Lady of Shalott references.

I must say that Arthur Badcock comes top of my list of implausible/unnecessary last-minute secret identity twists in AC! Again, I think it shows the trait AC must have shared with Mrs Oliver, cf my favourite Mrs O quote: "Oh, I can always think of things. The trouble is, one thinks of too many and has to drop some of them, and that is rather agony."

RE: secret identities
I agree that Arthur Babcock being husband #1 was unnecessary and implausible. I was afraid when the photographer turned out to be the adopted daughter that the male secretary would be the adopted son and it would all be rather a farce. Luckily AC had more sense than that and the photographer is not a coincidence as she worked hard to get that assignment to see Marina. And Miss M was a bit wrong when she told Craddock to follow up on the adoptees.

Did anyone else notice the amusing similarity among these surnames used by Agatha? Allcock, Badcock, Haydock, Craddock.
I enjoyed the book a lot. I had remembered the murderer but not the motive/explanation, so that kept it interesting for me. Plus I loved all of Miss Marple's domestic dramas. :)

Joanne wrote: "Did anyone else notice the amusing similarity among these surnames used by Agatha? Allcock, Badcock, Haydock, Craddock.
I enjoyed the book a lot. I had remembered the murderer but not the motive/ex..."

No I hadn't- what fun.

Robin wrote: "some of the racist remarks an exposure of the limited mind behind them rather than an endorsement? ..."

I think I agree on that- it's meant to be representative of how different people thought and not necessarily as how she thought.

Sandy wrote: "RE: secret identities
I agree that Arthur Babcock being husband #1 was unnecessary and implausible. I was afraid when the photographer turned out to be the adopted daughter that the male secretary ..."

Definitely agree with you both on this - I thought, oh no, when this cropped up, and was also hoping that we didn't get other characters turning out to be the other adopted children!

I also agree with the above posts. It is one thing to bring in the adopted daughter, but the ex-husband was far fetched, especially combined with the fact that Marina didn't recognize him.

I suppose Marina was fixated on the woman in front of her but yes, it is odd she would not recognise the man she had once been married to! I know Agatha is implying these 'Hollywood' types marry too often, but I still think his face might have rung a bell...

I think Agatha Christie was a bit too prone to insist on the idea that people change a lot and aren't recognisable in later years, because it suited her plots. The 'one old woman looks much like another' idea is a similar notion which is repeated over and over.

Perhaps she was bad at recognising and remembering faces herself and therefore assumed everyone else was! I am pretty bad at remembering faces myself and therefore can buy into it fairly easily, whereas my husband is forever pointing out to me on the street someone he stood behind in the supermarket three days ago or the woman who found our strayed cat a year and a half ago!

I hadn't recalled the idea that one old woman (probably only middle aged really) looks like another as one of the themes in this novel. It is interesting that Christie used this idea in The Mirror...while in (I think) Murder in Mesopotamia a woman does not recognise her first husband as the man to whom she is currently married.

I didn't mean that the 'one old woman looking like another' theme shows up in The Mirror Crack'd but it does repeat very often, including in Murder Is Announced and one of the 13 Problems short stories. (I can think of another but won't mention it here because it's key to the solution.)

On the spoiler front, that reference to Murder In Mesopotamia definitely is one. But I think of all the secret identities Christie ever came up with, it's the one I find the most staggeringly implausible.

I agree. My daughter and I were discussing it recently, in relation to The Woman on the Orient Express (a novel about Christie) and Thought the idea very far fetched.

Annabel wrote: "I didn't mean that the 'one old woman looking like another' theme shows up in The Mirror Crack'd but it does repeat very often, ...On the spoiler front, that reference to Murder In Mesopotamia definitely is one. But I think of all the secret identities Christie ever came up with, it's the one I find the most staggeringly implausible."

Agree, but it was a very popular trope at the time (1936), Christie was only giving her readers what they seemed to want. And not only is her MESOPOTAMIA a lot of almost-campy fun still, the riffs that Elizabeth Peters does with that story in particular and with Christie "style" in general, are magnificent! In the first two Amelia Peabody novels she references Christie markedly:

In #1, CROCODILE ON THE SANDBANK it's Christie's BROWN SUIT, and her #2 CURSE OF THE PHAROAHS is very very obiously a reworking of Christie's MESOPOTAMIA - the settings and characters are almost exactly reproduced. And btw, I haen't given you the solution or TMI, since Peters goes her own merry way with that plot -grin-.

Great to see so much good discussion, but just a quick reminder that this is only a spoiler thread for The Mirror Crack'd, so if you are mentioning possible spoilers/important plot points for other books, please use spoiler tags.

This also applies to earlier books in the challenge, as not everyone will have read all of them. Thanks, everyone.

P.S... If you're not sure about where to find spoiler tags, they are in the 'some html is ok' link on the top right when you are writing a post.

Abbey, what a great informative post. I've not read the novels you refer to and shall look out for them (not the Ac ones, I've read those, the others). Judy, thank you for your message about spoilers and how to deal with them. I think I'm guilty and shall look for the tag. Sorry to readers about that.

I am currently reading The Story of Classic Crime in 100 Books and there is mention in there of the elderly lady detectives and the inability to state their age, plus their being largely invisible. Examples given are Miss Marple, Miss Silver and also Gladys Mitchell, who we have yet to read as a group. I think one of her books was nominated though.

And, of course, 'elderly' could be as young as 60, or even younger in early novels.

Robin wrote: "Judy, thank you for your message about spoilers and how to deal with them. I think I'm guilty and shall look for the tag. Sorry to readers about that."

Thanks, Robin, it will be helpful if you and anyone else who might have spoilers for other books in their posts can edit - the spoiler tags are: <spoiler> </spoiler>

Mods can't edit other people's posts, although we can delete and repost them with spoiler tags if anyone has a problem using the tags - if anyone needs help send me a DM. Thanks.

Robin wrote: "And, of course, 'elderly' could be as young as 60, or even younger in early novels."

yup. precursor to Christie, Mary Roberts Rinehart's "older spinster ladies" (i.e., CIRCULAR STAIRCASE) are in their late *40s*!!

Miss Climpson in Sayers' Lord Peter Wimsey stories is about Fifty or a bit, but VERY active and brave, early 1920s.

and if you've never read Gladys Mitchell's Mrs Bradley. wow. In for a treat! She's simply, outrageously magnificent! and *nothing* like the Diana Rigg series on Mystery! tv. Malevolent, incredibly intelligent, sarcastic, I call her The Anti-Marple, at least late 60s.

She was a psychiatrist (and therefore M.D. too) at a time when there were few female doctors and almost no female psychiatrists. (late 1920s). Shee needed brass B***s, and had 'em.

obviously -grin- one of my personal favorites.

Abbey I pointed out in my review that Christie tackles ageism head on. Miss Knight got on my nerves because clearly Miss M did not need her help or sympathy. I have to read Rineheart for a challenge so now I'm doubly intrigued.

I agree, Brina. I shall look for your review and your comments on ageism. I think that Christie also looks with a jaundiced eye at traditional depictions of spinsters when she writes about Miss Marple. All the fluttering hides a mind like a steel trap really. Another writer, Barbara Pym, (not a detective novelist) writes about spinsters too. She also defies convention (in a genteel fashion, or at least a pretence of it) by making spinsters very active in moving the story along. They are not sweet bystanders at all.

Robin wrote: "I agree, Brina. I shall look for your review and your comments on ageism. I think that Christie also looks with a jaundiced eye at traditional depictions of spinsters when she writes about Miss Mar..."

I enjoy Pym's books- just finished one with another group- Jane and Prudence.

I think a lot depends on popular perception at the point in time a think was written. Age is something in the context of which this is ever changing.

Yes, Lady Clementina, you are right about age ever changing, and it appears that the appellation ' middle age' these days suggests that those so described will live well over 100. It is great to meet someone interested in Pym's novels. I have written about her work for various Pym conferences etc. But enough of another novelist on this blog. I'll keep to AC if possible in future.

I'd like to read Excellent Woman because it was recommended to me but I'm saving for one of my various challenges next year. I do believe age is only a number but ageism exists because a percentage of the population assumes incorrectly that the elderly are feeble. I read a contemporary book earlier this year Lillian Boxfish Takes a Walk that also tackles this issue well. As the life expectancy increases especially with the boomer population aging this is an issue that will continually need to be addressed.

Brina, do enjoy reading Excellent Women. You will find an excellent spinster to enjoy, apart from all the other characters. I laugh out loud when reading Pym's novels - oh dear, there I go again, talking Pym. Sorry.

Thanks, Robin, although these ladies hardly seem like spinsters in the traditional sense to me.