Our Shared Shelf discussion

Hello everyone.

I just finished The Beauty Myth, and I found it rather thought provoking. It really got me thinking about my own life and all the times I've encountered the myth but either never took the time to think about it or never thought about it in the first place. And that made think about where are today. Has the beauty myth changed in the past twenty-six years since the book was first published? Has it gotten better or worse for women (and men), or stayed the same? I can think of arguments for all.

We still see advertisements all the time for these so called miracle cures to help with aging, wrinkles, blemishes, etc. It seems there is a new revolutionary diet coming out every other month that is "guaranteed" to help us lose weight. Most if not all of these ads are targeted toward women.

On the other side, one can argue that women have progressed farther in the workplace than ever before. While there is still the issue of the unfair wage gap (according to the Institute for Women's Policy Research, women made 80 cents for every dollar that men earned in 2015), you hear less and less about civil cases in which a woman argues unfair job termination over age, beauty, or some other trivial reason. If someone comes across different findings, please let me know. This is what I have come across when looking through data.

However, the fact that this is still an issue leads me to believe that not much has changed. There are still books being published on the issue of beauty and its effects on girls and women. According to the Institute for Women's Policy Research, it will not be until the year 2059 that women will receive equal pay with men.

I am curious to hear other opinions. Please feel free to share, as I would love to hear your thoughts on this issue.

Hello! I'm not very far into The Beauty Myth yet (27 pages), but I've already had the same thought. I'm finding it hard to connect to as it was written a while ago, I'd love to have a current issue of it! But yes, at it's core I'm sure much of the issues still hold true today, even if in different (or the same) forms... And it is no less important to read in terms of where women have been in the past, and maybe where we still have to go.

there are some truths like the beauty diktat has appeared after the industrial revolution
but the causes are not sure to be the ones she said
there are no conspiracies from the men to impose that i don't think so

Just started the book today and finding it hard to connect to it. I am on the first chapter so far. Though I will continue to read.

I've only recently started reading the book, as I was finishing another book when it was announced, but I've had similar feelings thus far about the book.

The beauty myth is definitely still around and still has hold on us, though not in entirely the same ways as portrayed in the book. My response here is going to be form a more personal perspective than from a research-based on, as I haven't yet done any research on it.

To start with, I tend to exercise and read at the same time (kill two birds with one stone, so to speak). When I first opened the book and resumed this procedure, the irony was not lost on me. Part of my wanting to lose weight are for health reasons, but I would be lying if I said it had nothing to do with wanting to look better and feel better about my body. In fact, I would say at least half, if not more, is because I want to FEEL beautiful and I don't - I feel overweight and fat.

One of the things Naomi Wolf mentions in the introduction is how we do have Plus size models and the need to be thin is waning. My experience with this: it doesn't help fat shaming, even the kind that comes from yourself. Those plus size models are still digitally altered (a lot of the time) to remove the appearance of love handles, for one example. I look at pictures of these plus size models - even just ones modeling clothes for a company (look up Torrid - it's a plus size clothing store) and I actually feel worse because i have love handles. I have a muffin top. These girls who (according to their height and weight) should be of similar size to me don't have either. Even their faces look more shaped, without the little bit of fat that collects under the chin. So even here, we are being presented with an image that is impossible to actually achieve.

Something that has been bothering me more recently concerning this issue is how in movies they cast 20-year-old to play teenagers. So a 16-year-old sees a 20-year-old's body portraying a 16-year-old and thinks they should look like that, that that's what beauty is, but they're bodies aren't going to look anything like that for another four years.

As for differences in men and women in the work place, something I get a lot, as I am finishing up school to become a high school Math teacher, everyone is always impressed that I, a woman, am going into math. The fact that I'm going into teaching is overlooked and often forgotten because my specialty subject is math - a woman in mathematics. I've been told, "Good for you, a girl in math!" and the like, so this is not just in my imagination. I actually excel in math and quite frequently intimidate my male peers. I single out the male peers because that's my experience. The other females in my classes treat me as they do any other peer. The male classmates do the same at first, then get edgy around me as I prove to understand the material often faster than they do. In fact, they often come to me for help and have admitted, quietly, that certain classes they wouldn't have passed without me. There's always a tension in these interactions, though - a tension that is absent when I interact with my female classmates.

I don't want to rant too much, but I agree with what Wolf said in the introduction, that the Beauty Myth has mutated with the times. It's still around, just in different forms now.

Ashley, I would definitely agree with that. The Beauty Myth is definitely still around today. In fact, I think it's as strong as it has ever been, though maybe not as prevalent in some areas. For instance, I don't think the degree to which women could potentially lose their jobs for either looking too feminine or not feminine enough has gone down. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me because I am saying that strictly from a personal perspective. I just think we are more aware of it now. There are more people speaking out about it. In fact, Dove brought awareness to the issue of girls' self esteem not too long ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkFGu...

It shows that the Beauty Myth has trickled down to girls. It is definitely not just an issue that women face. On that note, a good book I would recommend is Beauty Sick by Renee Engeln. It offers a 2017 look at issues that Naomi Wolf brings up in her book.

Erin, I think you're right about the potential of women losing their jobs based on their appearance still being prevalent today, it's just harder to prove because it would no longer stand in court. So employers find smaller things to pin the removal on. I know, becoming a teacher, when my professors talk to us about how to dress for our interviews and future jobs, they tell the guys, "wear nice shirts and dress pants." The girls are given a list: if you wear something shear, wear something under it; don't show any cleavage; your skirt should be no shorter than your knees, if you wear a skirt, wear tights or nylons with it - essentially show as little skin as possible, but still dress "professionally." The ambiguity of "women professional dress" that Wolf describes is definitely still around.

We recently moved and when we did, I had my fiance start putting his shirts in drawers (where he formerly hung them in the closet, taking up the majority of the space). The closet now mostly consists of my dress/business clothes. He pointed it out the other day, saying I was being a typical woman. I rebuttled by asking him to list types of clothes men are expected to have and for what occasions and then to do the same for women. He quickly admitted defeat, and I made my point about societal demands and the double standards they have. So yes, that is definitely still there, just more disguised than it had been when Wolf wrote The Beauty Myth.

Also, I will most definitely look into your book recommendation and am about to watch the video link.

I'm currently reading the sex section of this book and just wanted to highlight and discuss something pointed out in it. "... law interprets obscenity as the presence of an erect penis, not of vulva and breasts."

I wanted to highlight this particular quote because it expresses so well something I have never been able to find the words to do so. The amount of imagery and display of women's bodies in society has always bothered me. As I got older, it began bothering more that it was not equalized with that of men's bodies. Women's bodies are objectified in pop culture, but men are spared this - and it's not just our culture. Japan actually is far worse than America with this.

I tried to express this to a male friend a while back, but he didn't see the harm in it. When I tried to explain the imbalance and that if they're going to show women so much they should show men too, his response was that that would be porn then. For this reason, this particular quote struck me and I wanted to point it out.

Reading the book I am struck by how the social progress thought to be more difficult has moved forward. Overall regard for women as equal is now mostly an accepted fact.

But where progress was suggested to be easier achieving balance in the home and closing the pay gap has failed. Women across social demographic classes still do the bulk of the "house work" and we know from recent events that pay is still an issue.

That being said we have made progress since the book was written, the reaction to the authors views on rape alone show that.

I will admit I was not sure what the aim was to selecting such a old book given its use of stats, which date more than home computers.

But having read it in have changed my mind it was a nice pause on the journey we are on in OSS.

What next I wonder. I have of course posted my suggestion :)

While The Beauty Myth may be a little dated, many of the topics discussed are still as relevant as ever. I regard the book as a good stepping stone for future books on the issue that may be discussed later on in the book club. I would love recent stats on the topics Naomi Wolf brought forth in her book, but I don't think too much has changed. If I am wrong feel free to correct me, that is just my assumption.

Agreed, updated stats for comparison would be nice; however, it's important in any educational journey to see where we started, and reading about mindsets and changes in decades prior is just as helpful to us now to make sure we avoid some of the mistakes and take more of the opportunities that those before us didn't have or just missed. If we don't learn from past mistakes of the movement, we'll just repeat them ourselves and not move forward any. I've actually found myself wanting to read some of the even earlier works she points to, to give myself a better understanding of the movement as a whole.

I just finished American Eclipse: A Nation's Epic Race to Catch the Shadow of the Moon and Win the Glory of the World which isn't about the equality movement in its focus, but does prominently feature scientist Maria Mitchell who had to fight like crazy to be considered a respected member of the scientific community of astronomers in the 1870s and onwards, just because she was a woman. Her efforts and those of her peers in that time helped encourage women to go into fields of science and fight for the vote, etc, all of which are important predecessors of our ongoing battle today. I find it interesting when my other books show similar themes to the current events I'm studying in this group :)

Ashley wrote: "Erin, I think you're right about the potential of women losing their jobs based on their appearance still being prevalent today, it's just harder to prove because it would no longer stand in court...."

Hi Ashley, you make a really good point about professional dressing for women. Is it just me or have movies and TV shows hijacked the feminist image lately? There are all these lead female roles that are powerful and in control (which is a great thing) but at the same time these women wear only couture to work and have perfect hair, makeup and bodies. I constantly come across articles that stress that to be considered a successful woman you have to be as successful as your male colleagues and also look like you're ready to pose for a magazine cover everyday. Now that magazines can't guilt trip women into being the perfect mother, wife or homemaker they are taking over women's careers and trying to sell the image of the perfect professional woman. I feel like it's an economic disadvantage for women to buy all that makeup and clothing. Men save so much money in that area. They use it to invest and buy the things they love whereas as a woman I feel like a large chunk of my income mostly ends up in the upkeep of my expected professional image.

Hello guys, is there any chance to find The Beauty Myth for kindle, for free?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions 🙏🏻

You could try your local library 🙂📚

I have recently finished reading this book. It opened my eyes to situations that I still can't comprehend and gave me a new understanding.
It was a punchy read , backed up beautifully by it's statistics. I do think every women should read this , as I am glad I did.

I am only on the chapter on Culture, but I definitely see this happening today. I had previously read The Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan -- the myth of the perfect housewife/mother is still very much alive today, at least in rural areas, and I was much influenced by it growing up -- so I highly recommend reading that if you haven't, as it connects to this book a great deal.

On page 75 of the paperback, I am reading "The look with which strange women sometimes appraise one another says it all: A quick up-and-down, curt and wary, it takes in the picture but leaves out the person...Women can tend to resent each other if they look too 'good' and dismiss one another if they look too 'bad.'" I get this ALL THE TIME. I moved two years ago and feel that I haven't made a single female friend since, because of that first moment interaction where they judge my appearance. Why do we do this to each other?!

I'm still reading the book, but it has definitely opened my eyes too for several issues that I didn't think were as grave as they actually are.

I was wondering though if anybody knows of any works written about these same issues, but written let's say 20 - 25 years later than The Beauty Myth? I would be very interested in reading about the way things are today, if continuous research has been done.

I know of one very similar. It's called Beauty Sick by Renee Engeln and it came out this year. It discusses similar topics and data is up to date. I have not read it yet but I did see the author's TED talk on youtube. I found it very interesting and relevant to this discussion.

Here is the link to the TED talk if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Xso...

I really struggled when I first started working in an office as ALL conversations seemed to eventually return to dieting and weight. I actually couldn't help myself to a pastry when we ran events without someone commenting and passing their own judgements on to my actions.

It struck me when I read the section of the book on dieting and the damage it does to our bodies, just how unhealthy this attitude is. I enjoy food, have never subscribed to diets and don't want to feel guilty about my food choices, but it seems loosing weight is a perpetual hobby of some people (not just women, my male partner is obsessed with this too).

I don't want to stop anyone from loosing weight if they truly want to and choose to for themselves, but this need to be constantly dieting is unhealthy.

Erin wrote: "Ashley, I would definitely agree with that. The Beauty Myth is definitely still around today. In fact, I think it's as strong as it has ever been, though maybe not as prevalent in some areas. For i..."

I finished The Beauty Myth already, but cannot get my hands on the book you recommended (Beauty Sick), I did watch Renee Engeln's TED lecture video and a small sample of her book though. It makes me sad the entire beauty epidemic. While reading The Beauty Myth I had to constantly remind myself that we are "supposedly" better off nowadays, that a lot of restrictions described in The Beauty Myth has improved a lot since then. I think quite a few women do know that they are facing a myth and know that the image of beauty is highly sexualized. However, agreeing with Engeln's statement in her TED talk, it does not help. Women and girls are still very much affected by the impossible ideal of beauty, and girls from a very young age have been consistently praised for their looks alone. I think what hurts women the most is that feeling that we are always being looked at, that we are always on display.

While growing up, I was also skeptic about being called "beautiful". Not because I don't want to be, but because I never thought I'd really be "beautiful". This skepticism I think saved me, because I started looking for other kinds of compliments, and will usually wave off the compliments regarding my looks. I remembered once when my aunt told me that to look pretty I will have to eat a dish (that I don't like). My response then (I think I was in middle school) was to say, "I don't want to be pretty, I want to be smart".

Now (I am studying masters in English Literature), it matters even less to me, because I still prefer sincere compliments that have nothing to do with my looks than to be called beautiful. However, I think I have it quite well off, since culturally I don't look "bad" or "ugly". Though there were people who said behind my back that "she would look better if she dressed better and wore make-up". I think I am blessed to have developed a defense mechanism towards "beauty" so early in life. I think this might be how we should teach the younger generations.

One statement in The Beauty Myth that really stuck with me, is when Wolf said that the beauty myth severs the tie between female generations. I think that with the widespread usage of internet, the connection between generations becomes even harder to maintain. So many younger folks look towards youtube to learn fashion and makeup now, not to mention all the criticisms on youtube that do not get censored... It is tough, fighting against such an abstract opponent.

p.s. Renee Engeln's TED lecture can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Xso...

I have seen these numbers form a copule of sources progress, although being made, does seem a little slow.

Current political and economic factors can account for this but we have to find ways not to lose ground when these draw backs occur.

Beauty Sick: How the Cultural Obsession with Appearance Hurts Girls and Women e-book is on sale at Barnes and Noble's website.

It looks like the Kindle version is also on sale.

Wow!!! This book was a paradigm-shifter! I am so thankful to be a part of this bookclub and have had so many eye-opening moments reading the books. I also share the books in my feminist book club I host which meets in person once a month. What really stood out to me in this book is the heteronormative myth that a family and children and partner make a woman whole. What a lie?!? And how freeing?!?

I've just started reading 'The Beauty Myth' yesterday and I'm immensely impressed by the presented arguments. Some may be a bit outdated, others are arguable, but I can give you two examples, why this topic still matters so much:

1. http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2017-08/dis...

This is an article in the German newspaper 'Zeit', which was just published today. The author is a young journalist and she adresses the sexism in work in her column. She illustrates that young women are still judged by their gender, called 'princess' and other names by their bosses and have to fight much harder for acceptance, than their male collegues have to. Her examples are very accurate and so this article is an excellent example, of what Naomi Wolf articulates in her chapter 'Work'. You find not only the sexism and disrespect, she writes about, in it, but also the debate between younger and elder women. As I just read the 'Work' chapter yesterday, it just struck me, how relevant and in need of discussion this debate still is in 2017.

2. I'm writing this at my desk at work, because I just came back from lunch with my collegues, where we talked about the double-standard concerning men and women. Due to the upcoming German elections, we discussed the political agendas of the respective parties and how female candidates have to be much more careful, of how they appear in the debates, than men do. Isn't it upsetting that we're still arguing about the same subjects that were discussed in a book, published in 1991?!

The more I think and read about feminism and inequalities, the more I'm convinced that there's so much more to do!

Naomi Wolf was right about the myth morphing into something new, just as the beauty myth emerged from the myth of domesticity. I feel that the current ideal is a sort-of "health" ideal, and I think that if we look at it this way, we can see that the same sort of oppressive ideals exist. Wolf touched upon this idea, especially in her chapters on Hunger and Violence, but "healthism" is even more of a problem now in 2017. I'm thinking of websites like Goop, that paint a picture of health to be an exclusive ideal of $10 green juices, $25 yoga classes, and a gluten-free/vegetarian/vegan/paleo/whatever diet. Or the endless articles on how to spend your entire Saturday meal-prepping "macro-friendly" meals, so that you always have something healthy to eat, god-forbid. Or the endless stream of before-and-after pictures on Instagram of women who have transformed their bodies, their lives, through an exercise regime. Because strong is the new skinny, right? What would Wolf say about the conversations surrounding orthorexia as a new eating disorder diagnosis?

Of course, I don't mean to judge anyone's choices - I myself practice yoga, and every woman has the right to pursue and obtain a level of health that is meaningful to them. However, I think this becomes problematic in two ways: (1) what we now call "healthy" (or what the media calls healthy) is pretty classist, ablest, etc. and it adopts an almost victim-blaming philosophy, in which we are all expected to be doing everything we can to "optimize" our health, despite the fact that so many other factors (genetics, oppression / marginalization, etc) contribute to our health; and (2) when health equals a size 0 and the ability to run for an hour and keep a vegan diet, how is this any different from the beauty ideal?

Thank you for your thoughtful post, Leigh. I agree with you.

I finished reading The Beauty Mith a little while ago, so I may not be really fresh on chapters and direct quotes from the text.
I am really happy it was chosen in OSS because it gave me the chance to discover it. It was a bit of a hard reading and I totally agree with the idea that we need an updated version of it for nowadays, especially for the statistics, that is why I opened the link to this thread in the first place. Thanks to all who suggested Beauty Sick, I'll give it a try. Also, I wanted to follow on from Leigh's suggestion with what I can say from personal experience: the Beauty myth is evolving in the Health myth also in the form of "healthy/vegan/eco" beauty products and garments, I think. I am quite puzzled by this turn of events because I don't really understand whether it brings forward a new conscience of the environmental issues and one's health or it just distorts these ideals.

The point made about health i.e. vegan and healthy eating is interesting and one I hadn't thought of. These days healthy eating is as popular as ever, but in some cases I do feel people go vegan in order to maintain the beauty myth and not so much to stay healthy and eat healthy. I see people all the time who say they only diet and exercise to maintain the "ideal" body and not through a desire to have a healthy lifestyle. I'm definitely not saying all people have this motive, but in 2017 it seems it is a newer way to keep the beauty myth. Thanks for the insight.

Leigh wrote: "Naomi Wolf was right about the myth morphing into something new, just as the beauty myth emerged from the myth of domesticity. I feel that the current ideal is a sort-of "health" ideal, and I think..."

That's very insightful, I hadn't considered that, but it makes sense when you bring it up that way. It makes me physically sick to my stomach when I see a perfectly beautiful (in modern culture terms, I'll admit) woman talking about needing to do just a little more of this or that to get to that perfect weight, or achieve a goal, and always denying themselves the foods they enjoy, etc. Yes, for many people. diet (in the sense of what foods they choose to eat, not in the losing weight sense) is very important, for some, even critical to life, but most women I know really don't need to constantly deny themselves every kind of "rich" food just because it might be unhealthy. Moderation, and all that.

Erin wrote: "The point made about health i.e. vegan and healthy eating is interesting and one I hadn't thought of. These days healthy eating is as popular as ever, but in some cases I do feel people go vegan in..."

Categories are tricky, though.

I spent a few years in denial of the fact that I am vegan because I couldn't stand the way some vegans I'd met made other people feel bad about their choices. I have been involved with animal rescue since I learned how to walk, and as such I used to be driven crazy by many a hypocrite in an high horse about his/her diet options while loads of hardcore animal lovers I knew didn't/couldn't even bother.

It is the state of the planet that makes me nowadays admit: I am vegan. Industrialized livestock production has to meet its curb - and god willing it will, before too long.

That said, and with apologies up front: if as according to this thread the Beauty Myth has evolved into a Healthy Myth, I would call that indeed an evolution.

Going back to Martina's comment:

"the Beauty myth is evolving in the Health myth also in the form of "healthy/vegan/eco" beauty products and garments, I think. I am quite puzzled by this turn of events because I don't really understand whether it brings forward a new conscience of the environmental issues and one's health or it just distorts these ideals.

That an industry of "healthy/vegan/eco" products is doing what industries do - boiling complex human beings down to mere consumers - yes, that is a legitimate concern, and it does distort these ideals. It pains me that the media makes it all look like a muzzle. But still. Time is of essence. I don't even know when was it that I became this half-full cup kind of person, it might also have do to with the state of our ecology. Optimism as a desperate measure. So I feel somewhat desperately relieved to hear that nowadays "healthy/vegan/eco" might be what is being used to sell, as opposed to what we made out of the earth during the last century. Not that I have any sadistic desire to see people suffering, I really don't. As matter of fact, within my circle of experience, people don't stick too long to a vegan diet for vanity reasons. And I applaud that. My lovely roommate was found as a teenager by a fashion scout, signed as a top model to be "treated like sheep" and imposed a vegan starvation diet, and quit to become a pastry chef.

Sometimes I wish The Beauty Myth had been titled "The Pretty Myth". It is my problem with categories. I know so many beautiful people who don't subscribe to a "pretty girl" personality. Vegan, skinny - all the adjectives that got bad press here, and yet if you were to meet them in person you wouldn't think them "pretty". Their consciousness shines through.

But back to The Beauty Myth evolving as The Healthy Myth: evolution is the perfect word. Messy, clumsy, forward. And, luckily, perhaps also with a bit of consciousness at this juncture.

Ana Paula wrote: "That an industry of "healthy/vegan/eco" products is doing what industries do - boiling complex human beings down to mere consumers - yes, that is a legitimate concern, and it does distort these ideals. "

You stated this much better than I did, my apologies: I have no intention of attacking vegans (or any other group) but yes, the idea of commercializing health, etc, and that becoming the focus, rather than doing something because it is the personal choice for what is best for that individual, would be the problem. One is doing something for personal/health reasons, the other is doing it because society tells us it's the popular thing at this point in time; big difference.

As I read the book, I too kept thinking about some of her arguments and whether they're relevant now. I'm about halfway though and realized that while some of the details have changed, the infrastructure is still the same. For example, I think we are more aware that when we look at magazines, we expect the models to be photoshopped but not with Instagram models. The issues of sexual harassment still are extremely prevalent but tend to be more subtle. It feels to me that these are issues where we just nip it in the bud but not the roots and so they ultimately spring up again

Seline wrote: "Erin wrote: "Ashley, I would definitely agree with that. The Beauty Myth is definitely still around today. In fact, I think it's as strong as it has ever been, though maybe not as prevalent in some..."

"While growing up, I was also skeptic about being called "beautiful". Not because I don't want to be, but because I never thought I'd really be "beautiful". This skepticism I think saved me, because I started looking for other kinds of compliments, and will usually wave off the compliments regarding my looks."

This just spoke to me so much. I have a genetic disorder, and so (especially as a child) I have rather distinctive facial features that other kids and adults would comment on negatively. So I've never been too convinced that I COULD be beautiful without massive surgery or something, which I'd never do. So I looked elsewhere for praise. I'd been trying to work out exactly why I've kind of escaped the worst of it. Obviously not completely, but I have to an extent.

Belinda wrote: "Seline wrote: "Erin wrote: "Ashley, I would definitely agree with that. The Beauty Myth is definitely still around today. In fact, I think it's as strong as it has ever been, though maybe not as pr..."

Not sure if this is relevant, but, from looking at your profile picture, I see nothing distinctively different about your facial features/structure and think you're very beautiful!

I have also been noticing the way the Beauty Myth is still being perpetuated... It's been surprising how much I've been picking up on things since reading it.

1.The BoPo movement on Instagram (well, that's where I follow people anyway!) is so often the target of horrible fat shaming and misogyny, it's depressing how frequent it is.

2. Also, in regard to those ads meant to inspire self love and positivity, especially those Dove ones... no matter how "inclusive" they are, they're still trying to sell you a product. They've taken the body positivity movement and twisted it to work for them- instead of the subtext being "you should fix yourself with this magic lotion, then you'll be pretty" to "you love yourself, so to keep yourself this good, you need Dove"

3. Unilever owns Dove, and also Lynx, whose ads imply that if you buy it, women will throw themselves at you. Very feminist, no?
Also not good to pick on male sensitivity about being attractive and needing a spray to become irresistible.

Not particularly coherent, but I'm at work ;)

Ashley wrote: "Belinda wrote: "Seline wrote: "Erin wrote: "Ashley, I would definitely agree with that. The Beauty Myth is definitely still around today. In fact, I think it's as strong as it has ever been, though..."

Thank you, you're so lovely!
My face is still quite flat and I have a small jaw/chin. Was WAY more pronounced when I was little until maybe 17, I had heaps of reconstructive surgery and orthodontics. Kids will pick on literally anything though, but it was worse when adults said stuff. A doctor called my face "mutated" when I was 10 which hit like a ton of bricks, for one.

Ashley wrote: "I'm currently reading the sex section of this book and just wanted to highlight and discuss something pointed out in it. "... law interprets obscenity as the presence of an erect penis, not of vulv..."

Ashley, you make a very good point. I would take it a step further and say that if we stopped sexualizing bodies (because they are natural) maybe we wouldn't even have this issue. It is definitely an issue that needs to be heard. I think the context of the body exposure is what constitutes pornography, not certain body parts in general. I hope that I am making sense.

It seems like America has a huge issue with sexuality when other countries don't seem to have this problem, or at least not to the extent that we take it.