Jane Austen discussion

this is the next discussion section. (corrected from my preliminary comments which stated thru 13)

I am traveling due to family concerns; I apologize...this and my delays in posting were unexpected. I will fall in with you lovely people as soon as possible.

Hope all is well Sarah

SarahC wrote: "I am traveling due to family concerns; I apologize...this and my delays in posting were unexpected. I will fall in with you lovely people as soon as possible."

Sending good thoughts your way, Sarah!

Since we were talking about Edmund's obliviousness in the last thread, I thought we might continue it here. He really manipulates things in his mind to fit what he wants to see. His own decision to act with the others, for instance. He tells himself he's doing it to avoid the scandal of other people in the neighborhood knowing about the play, but it's just to keep other potential suitors away from Miss Crawford. And then he totally forgets about trying to scale it down at all, basically letting his siblings have the run of the house. Thoughts on Edmund's character in this part?

The entire Bertram family were small community, small minded, selfish, self-centered and self-righteous. They had been taught to think meanly of others and to see themselves as the cream of the crop. That was fine until the Crawford siblings entered the community and ripped the scab off their festering comfort zone.

Up until this time, Tom was really the only one who left MP and engaged with the real world. We see how easily he was influenced to act in a like manner to this friends and associates… even at the cost to his family and younger brother. His moral compass was exposed and revealed in his comment, after Sir Thomas gave his blistering interview, when he said that he wasn’t half as in debt as some of his friends.

Maria and Julia were enamored immediately with Henry. Maria now had someone to compare Mr. Rushworth to and the poor guy fell short, despite his being a tall fellow. The sisters now knew, or thought they did, what a true gentleman was. Little were they aware of the flirtations of the ton or the way in which town gentlemen played with the affections of females. Their limited exposure to this was to their detriment.

Edmund was like any male finding himself in the presence of a beautiful, well dressed, accomplished female. She simply bowled him over. Everything he knew about himself and what he wanted in life was turned on its ear, including his moral compass. Because Fanny was a solid and steadfast safe haven, he often turned to her. She thought and felt the way he did, because he taught her. When he felt his resolve wavering, he sought her advice… but, then, he didn’t follow it.

Mary and Henry saw Mansfield Park as a respite from the hustle and bustle of town. It’s like going on vacation. At first you can’t stand the silence and the quiet lifestyle and then, you can’t imagine any other way of life. But soon you have to return to reality.

Hannah! J.W.! This is excellent food for thought. There is no smoke without fire, as they say. You cannot blame the Crawfords for every misstep the Bertrams take. They may be bad influence on the Mansfield people, but at first they seem more like catalysts. They bring all the Bertram flaws suppressed/glossed over to the surface. They are not to blame for their blindness & selfishness. It was already there to begin with. Fanny likes to blame everything Edmund does "out of character" (or so she likes to think) on Mary, but jealousy majes her a bit blind & her judgement (though most of the time correct) a bit muddled, I think.

I agree Melindam... the Crawfords merely allowed the sunlight of reality to shine brightly, thus, revealing the true characters of our MP family. Yes, it was already there... it just needed to be exposed. The rest of the book was everyone trying to deal with the reality check they had been given or were about to be given. Good comment.

I don't know that the Bertram ladies had any less exposure to society than anyone else in a country area at the time. They hadn't been to town, but they'd certainly been to lots of balls, and there's some mention of how they were favored with the men in the area. Henry Crawford's attractions, it is mentioned by his sister, make even the most city-wise woman in love with him. Miss Crawford mentions that he leaves ladies pining after him in his wake. But he certainly doesn't cause the problems between Maria and Julia; he just brings their rivalry to the surface.

As for Edmund, it's hard to discuss this since Austen doesn't really mention anything about it until later in the novel, but he has had limited exposure to women. Although he's met plenty of pretty girls, I think, he hasn't met with many intelligent women beyond his family circle. So, I think you're right about the effect Miss Crawford has on him. I'm not sure if it's particularly about her or if another pretty, intelligent woman would have been able to blind him so easily. What gets me is his blindness to it. And he's almost as blind to Fanny's opinions as Mrs. Norris, in the sense that he asks for her advice and then twists her words to agree with his own ideas. In his defense, Fanny never speaks out very strongly against anything other than acting herself, since she's so used to being silenced and not trusting her own opinions.

*NOT trusting her own opinions

@ 9 Hannah, good observations.

In this section we start to see some of Fanny’s moral rigidity, which puts off many readers. My sense is that Fanny has nothing of her own and no say over her own life, and the only thing she has that’s hers is her sense of self, which is all tangled up in her sense of right and wrong. It’s not surprising that she’s rigid because she’s defending her very identity—misguided or extreme though she may be.

That makes a lot of sense. It's kind of the same with modern teenagers--taking a (sometimes misguided) stand for identity in a world where they have little control over their surroundings.

I have only read the first two chapters of this section, but I do have a couple of questions for the group.

Since Edmund is going to be a clergyman, would he have had to attend university? I figured he would have, but I don't recall mention of it. What about being sent away to school like Harrow or Eton?

Also, why did the Bertram girls never get a season in London or perhaps Bath? It seems like they are well situated enough that they should have gone beyond their local society. I wonder what would have happened if they had more exposure. I also wonder how Maria would have gotten on in London if she had went as a newlywed to London, if Sir Thomas had not told them to await his return and she had not met Henry.

Edmund did go away to school and then university.

And I suspect the girls didn’t get a Season because of their mother’s indolence, coupled with their father’s worries about money (sending him off to Antigua) and Mrs. Norris’s parsimony.

This is mentioned later in the book, but Lady Bertram never liked town after having children and when her health went a bit downhill, so Sir Bertram would just go there for business. And since he didn't like it much either for the social scene, the Bertram girls didn't get to go. There's mention of Maria's travels for her honeymoon, as well, and Julia goes with them to keep her sister company. Again, this is later in the book, but I believe they go to London at some point in their travels.

Thank you Abigail and Hannah!

maria and julia certainly should have had a season in london, it would have given them a wider choice of spouses. Maria might have met someone who attracted her enough that she wouldn't fall for henry when he turned up. But perhaps it wouldn't have made any difference - henry is clearly loaded with sex appeal.

Louise, I don't think it would have made any difference. Remember, Mary commented that all her friends were in love with Henry and he didn't care for any of them. This guy loved flirtation and making all the women in love with him. Period... then when he succeeded, he went on to his next conquest. No woman within 10-feet of him was safe. That was just who he was.

The girls having a Season would have given them a sense of their own consequence. Yes, they had beauty, fortune and connections... but, in the overall scheme of things... they would have had a better idea of who they were. As it was... they were at the peak of their limited society and unable to compare themselves to others. I'm not saying it well. Their sense of entitlement needed a reality check.

You are right J.W., although I think, if not Henry Crawford, then someone else would have duped Maria and Julia with empty compliments & pretense whether in London or anywhere else. In the closed-limited "space" of Mansfield the effect Henry has on the girls is somehow amplified.
Talking about Henry Crawford, I never read Mansfield Park without feeling a little sorry for him: all that talent and potential he had and all wasted on the altar of vanity and pleasure-hunting. The same goes for Mary. She, with all her faults and upbringing, has more depth and feeling than either Maria or Julia and of course she is way cleverer.

Melindam, I agree completely regarding Maria and Julia.

Yeah, Henry is to be pitied... he couldn't see the tree for the forest. Fanny was an angel of his own creation. He had built up a fantasy that was not Fanny. He saw her through a rose colored lens and could not see the real her. They were so opposite in character, beliefs, consequence and connections. He thought he could parade her before all his former conquests and show what could really attract him. Never once did he see that this would have broken the spirit of such a creature that was Fanny Price.

Mary also saw things through her on colored lens. This brother-sister duo saw, but did not see; heard, but did not hear what was right in front of them. I felt sorry for both of them. Their background tainted their future happiness.

J. W. wrote: "Melindam, I agree completely regarding Maria and Julia.

Yeah, Henry is to be pitied... he couldn't see the tree for the forest. Fanny was an angel of his own creation. He had built up a fantasy th..."

The idea of the 'coloured lens' is so true. It seems to be a recurring theme of the book, the characters all seeing though their own filters, rather than seeing the truth of themselves and each other.

Fanny is the only one who really sees what is going on between everyone around her, but I think even she is part-blind towards Edmund, and very blind later on in her fantasies about her loving family in Portsmouth.

Nina, your right about Fanny being surprised when she got back to Portsmouth. That was a reality check she wasn't expecting.

I've been thinking about how Austen structures the novel, how she gives us information about the characters. They mostly reveal themselves through their own dialogue and how the characters talk about each other. For example, I think (?) the only thing JA explicitly tells us about Mrs. Norris is at the beginning, "she has a spirit of activity." Compare this to the opening of her next novel, Emma, in which she sketches Emma's character for us. But in Mansfield Park, there are many conversations between the characters -- Mary, Tom and Edmund on girls "coming out," -- Mrs. Norris and Dr. Grant and Mrs. Grant on an apricot tree -- which do not drive the plot but they reveal characters and their relationships with one another. I think MP is particularly rich with this technique.

Another example, the masterful way Henry Crawford is introduced, the narration relates how the Bertram girls at first think he is plain, then after a few meetings they think he's handsome, but Fanny doesn't. That is so well done.

You’re right on target about the characters revealing themselves through dialogue. I think it must have been Jane Austen’s extensive exposure to the theater that gave her such skill in this technique.

Abigail wrote: "You’re right on target about the characters revealing themselves through dialogue. I think it must have been Jane Austen’s extensive exposure to the theater that gave her such skill in this technique."

In Mary's dialog, she sometimes says things about herself to Edmund and Fanny that aren't very nice, but I don't think anyone listens.

It did strike me Mrs Norris could appear in the play in Fanny's stead!

Lona wrote: "I've been thinking about how Austen structures the novel, how she gives us information about the characters. They mostly reveal themselves through their own dialogue and how the characters talk abo..."

Mary is a fascinating character, almost chameleon-like, she talks one way in public, another way in private with her brother and half-sister, Edmund later complains that she talks completely different again when with her worldly friends in town. She flatters, she self-deprecates to make herself seem more charming, she uses French words to sound more stylish and educated - Just like Lona says - her character is revealed through Austen's use of dialogue.

I think the reason Edmund and Fanny don't seem to be listening to Mary when she's saying negative things about herself, is because they don't speak the same language as her. She is saying what she doesn't mean to create an effect, and they don't have it in them to play such language games.

I also want to praise the Sotherton episode. It builds tensions and foreshadows how Maria is seduced by Henry Crawford's charm (and for that matter, Edmund is seduced by Mary's charm) while poor, passive Fanny just sits and watches. She sees the trouble brewing, but since she is also so humble and self-deprecating, she doesn't trust her own judgment. Actually she does hint to Edmund, but he refuses to see it. The actual details of Sotherton -- walking, house-touring, cream cheese, are not important. But JA uses them to explore the relationships of the characters.

Even the details like who sits where in the barouche. Maria Bertram sits facing forward, the preferred seat. Mrs. Norris sits beside her. Julia (thanks to Mrs. Grant's efforts to forward a match between her and Henry Crawford) sits up beside him. That leaves Fanny and Mary Crawford to sit with their back to the horses, travelling backwards. But they are content because they can watch Edmund riding along on horseback.

I am finally in the discussion -- so glad to be here. You are all thinking about the same points as I have been with these characters. I like examining that Sotherton trip also. So many things play out here to start building the structure of these relationships. Yes -- the barouche ride. The rivalry between sisters, where we clearly see that Maria is now feeling that a relationship with Henry might unfold. And the misery and jealousy she experiences as Julia sits beside Henry for the whole trip. Good job Jane Austen for this fine episode on this Henry-Maria-Julia subject.

There is also the scene with undercurrents when they discuss the upcoming wedding while in the small Sotherton family chapel.

And the tension is introduced regarding Mary's disapproval of Edmund's future as a minister. Also, the jealousy of Rushworth comes out with his "In my opinion, these Crawfords are no addition at all. We did very well without them."

Hannah wrote: "I don't know that the Bertram ladies had any less exposure to society than anyone else in a country area at the time. They hadn't been to town, but they'd certainly been to lots of balls, and there..."

I think as we go into the next reading section, we can discuss this more as the story goes along...but is Edmund fascinated by Mary's boldness and modernity? These parts of Mary seem in conflict with who Edmund is, but is that the thing? -- which, to me, is a separate thing from beauty and intellect. The is blunt. I also have been thinking that she puts herself forward in a room or a gathering of people. That action of a woman was very unknown to him probably. I have known of people sort of curious/fascinated/attracted/shocked by another person and who pursued a relationship due to that mix.

Interesting to highlight the Sotherton scenes. I don’t know of any other moment in Austen’s writing—except perhaps for the strawberry party at Donwell Abbey—when she uses so much symbolism. The characters feel like actors in some kind of a ritualized morality play from the late Middle Ages, playing their roles to demonstrate for us the larger themes rather than being themselves. Usually her art is more submerged. I’m not saying I don’t like it, because sometimes the author needs to show her hand, but it does stand out as unusual.

SarahC wrote: "Hannah wrote: ".I think as we go into the next reading section, we can discuss this more as the story goes along...but is Edmund fascinated by Mary's boldness and modernity?

Sarah,

Also, since the family are not in the habit of going to town, aside from the things that you mentioned regarding Mary's appeal, she also has the appeal of novelty. Edmund has most likely known all of the other young ladies of the neighborhood for all of their lives and his as well.

Lona wrote: "I also want to praise the Sotherton episode. It builds tensions and foreshadows how Maria is seduced by Henry Crawford's charm (and for that matter, Edmund is seduced by Mary's charm) while poor, p..."

Lona,

Your comments and Abigail's have inspired me to read this section again.

Your comments are very insightful and appreciated!

It seems to me that Edmund is attracted to Mary in a similar fashion as Darcy to Elizabeth In addition to seex appeal the fact that she (they) are bright and witty amusing and unabashed not demure and flirty (I don't think Mary is flirting this is her real image) As everone says Mary is a very attractive character(also kindin her attitude to fanny)

Mrs wrote: "It seems to me that Edmund is attracted to Mary in a similar fashion as Darcy to Elizabeth In addition to seex appeal the fact that she (they) are bright and witty amusing and unabashed not demure ..."

Hi Mrs!

Now that you mention these similarities between each Edmund and Darcy attraction to Mary and Lizzie, I have to agree.

However, Darcy's attraction to Lizzie is combined with full knowledge of the downside or evils of marrying her. In Edmunds case, the force of the evils of marrying Mary aren't as strong (view spoiler)[ until near the end of the book where it is revealed just how unacceptable her views are (the seduction of poor Maria!). I think until then, he perhaps thought/hoped that her aversion to his chosen profession was an obstacle that could be overcome. (hide spoiler)]

Abigail wrote: "Interesting to highlight the Sotherton scenes. I don’t know of any other moment in Austen’s writing—except perhaps for the strawberry party at Donwell Abbey—when she uses so much symbolism. The cha..."

I agree, and I love the Sotherton scene because of the symbolism, which, as you say, is not commonly done by Austen.
There's Mary tempting Edmund down 'serpentine' paths in the woods, and Maria standing at the bars of Mr Rushton's locked gates crying 'I can't get out', while Fanny begs her not to slip round the gate and run off with Henry because she will surely get hurt...lots of wonderful foreshadowing.

Does the Author know what she is hinting at in "serpentine pathes"and locked doors? does she have an outline or does she flow with the plot and characters? remember that Cassandra sugguested a different ending. when were the endings thought of ?at what stage did Cassandra know the end?maybe the scene was added at a rewriting after Jane had already finished the novel These of course are questions we can neve r answer just food for thought (relate these questions to Emma full of intrigue haha )

I see this as the time that the group separated into pairs. They have broken/splintered from the collective. I can see where this began their fragmentation and Fanny watched it happen right before her eyes.

We see the avarice Mrs. Norris [getting what she could for nothing].

Lady Bertram too indolent to even attempt the call even on behalf of her daughter and her future family.

Maria was presented with the wealth of Mr. Rushworth, but perhaps, realizing now it might not be enough... thus, her statement mentioned above. So... true to her nature... she 'ran off' with Henry into the wilds of the estate.

This should have been a heads up for Julia... of being left behind by her sister. In a sense Maria 'ran off' with what should have been Julia's beau. A lot of foreshadowing in this trip.

Even Edmund was not exempt. For all his goodness... he left Fanny alone... and forgot her... not even realizing the time. They all were unchaperoned as they broke away... if you get down to it.

Guys, I was just looking up the poem [The Task, by Cowper] that Fanny quotes at the dinner table when they are discussing renovating the landscape at Sotherton:

Ye fallen avenues! once more I mourn
Your fate unmerited, etc. A few lines later, there is this:

We tread the wilderness, whose well-roll’d walks,
With curvature of slow and easy sweep—
Deception innocent—give ample space
To narrow bounds.

This is exactly what Mary and Edmund were flirtatiously arguing about when they walked in the wilderness! JA must have been making a sly reference to this poem, which would have been well-known to her educated readers of the day.

Doncha think!

fantastic! between us we should look up every quote and reference. What a wonderful world we live to have so much information and resoures at our (literal) fingertips and to share our interest with people around the globe

Well done, Lona! I keep meaning to read “The Task,” but can never quite bring myself to do it. And you’re so right, Mrs, it’s a brave new world that has such features in it (if I may mangle the quote).

I'm sorry I stopped reading when I got overwhelmed by trying to participate in too much on Goodreads, after having recently discovered all these groups with shared interests. I am back to reading (well listening this time) and have finished this section. I am finding myself more in sympathy with Edmund than I was originally expecting. It can be difficult to see what is right in front of your face when nearly everyone's wishes and inclinations, including your own, defies it.

I'll be reading through your comments and posting if I have anything to add.

Joanna wrote: "I'm sorry I stopped reading when I got overwhelmed by trying to participate in too much on Goodreads, after having recently discovered all these groups with shared interests. I am back to reading (..."

I look forward to your views on this book!