Never too Late to Read Classics discussion

Mimi will be leading the discussion of North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell.
Thank you, Mimi. Happy reading.

Hi guys (and girls), and welcome to this buddy read of North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell

The NTLTRC Rules apply to this thread! Keep it nice and friendly.
That doesn't mean you're not allowed to have your own opinion, just present it in the least offensive way. Thank you.

This is going to be a structured buddy read, meaning we'll read up to a certain chapter by a certain date (schedule in next post).

If you get behind, no problem, you're still very welcome to join the discussion!
I would appreciate it, however, that if you're a faster reader (or if you've read the book already), to not post comments on the chapters ahead of the schedule.

Also, I think it would be a nice gesture to those who want to read spoiler-free to start each of your post with:

'Currently on chapter --'

and then post your thoughts, questions, feelings... Happy reading!

Note: Don't get intimidated by the high number of chapters per week, each chapter is on average about 6 pages long!

21 July - 23 July : chapters 1-3
24 July - 30 July: chapters 4-20
31 July - 6 August : chapters 21-38
7 August - 13 August: chapters 39-52 (end)

Awesome :)

I posted the schedule! We'll start of slow, to give others a chance to join in (it was rather short notice, I know ;) ), but then we'll pick up the pace a bit.
You're welcome to join in at any moment!

For those who don't have the book yet, and want to start immediately, there's a version on Project Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4276,
there's a freebie version on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/North-South-El...
or you could go peruse your favourite local bookstore! (Remember, they need your patronage in order to survive!)

Piyumi wrote: "Awesome :)"

Hi Piyumi, hope you'll be joining me in reading this one!

Currently on Chapter 1

I'll kick off the discussion here. In chapter 1 we get to meet Margaret Hale, who will be our heroine in this novel.

Interesting note: If it hadn't been for Charles Dickens (who was friends with Elizabeth Gaskell), this book would probably have been called 'Margaret Hale'. He insisted however, that 'North and South' made a stronger statement about the novel.

Hi Mimi! I read this in May. I would not be reading but would like to join in the discussion if it is permitted.

Sure! You're very welcome to join in!

To anyone who want to join in: Welcome!

If I'm a bit slow reacting to your posts the next couple of days, I appologize. We just had a roof that collapsed, and I need to sort it out...

Mimi, that is horrible. I hope it didn't cause major damage and that no one got hurt.

Sorry to hear, Mimi. Hope no one got injured.

Mimi, I badly wanted to join in a North and South group read but with 2 books going didn't think I could start as soon as you wanted, so I thought I would pass. I sure did wish something could happen to let me join in, but I honestly didn't wish for your roof to cave in to otherwise occupy your time. I am truly sorry, Mimi.
Seriously, though, I opted to speed up my novel reading and just finished my Trollope, so I'm ready to join you in the North and South read. I was tempted by the Cranford read, but I preferred to initiate my Gaskell experience with N & S. I've never read her but have seen all 3 TV miniseries.

I founda copy of North and South on my shelf, so I will be joining you as well.

I also just got my copy of True Grit for the Group FWC read, and found out it will be a quick read, allowing plenty of time for me to also read North and South. Eight Cousins is also fairly short

Rosemarie, Piyangie, thanks, and no, nobody got hurt.

Brian, don't worry. We'll be taking the discussions slow, more to the end of the week (giving people the opportunity to catch up and get in the rhythm).
I'm ashamed to admit that at the moment I'm a chapter behind on schedule as well ;)

(That roof was just the last in a series of unfortunate events, but dealing with the aftermath is going a lot smoother than suspected :).

So hello, and welcome to the readers who joined, this week, the goal is to discuss chapters 4 up to 20.

If the pace is too quick for most of you, I could readjust the schedule, just say so here (or send me a PM).

regards,
Mimi

I would prefer a slower pace of maybe 10 chapters a week, but will do my best to catch up if the group decides to go at a faster pace.

I don't mind the pace, but you state that this week we discuss Chapters 4-20 which means, since someone might talk about something from Chapter 20, if I want to avoid a spoiler, I shouldn't look at this page again until I finish Chapter 20.
I just finished Chapter 3. So far, so good. First London, then setting the "Southern Living" portrait.

Brian, thanks for mentioning that- about not checking until we have finished the chapters.

I thought we could avoid the spoilers, by opening our posts with 'Currently on Chapter xyz', and then the comments, so if someone else is reading the thread, they can skip the posts about chapters they haven't read yet (a bit like in post #7)...

Good idea, Mimi.

Finished CHAPTER 6

Margaret's rejection of the proposal came before I could fully understand what she thought of Henry Lennox and, perhaps, before she could either.
After finishing Trollope's Chronicles of Barsetshire, it is interesting to find another novel where Anglican Church politics are a part of the plot. Gaskell's husband was a Unitarian minister so I'm not surprised Mr. Hale is a dissenter, though the reasons for his dissent aren't explained. There is talk of another dissenter in the Methodist line.

Halfway CHAPTER 6

I suppose Margaret turned Henry Lennox down, because he caught her by surprise. She never considered him anything other than a friend, eventhough he'd been flirting with her (but he's been so darn subtle about it, she's mistaken it for friendliness).
She was taken aback by his question, perhaps even offended.

I also think she never, up until then, considered marriage, for herself.

Not chapter-related trivia

Okay, I'm loving this book so much, I'll need to pace myself and not read through it in one giant binge-read ;)
So I'll be looking into some background trivia related to the book, and start filling this thread...

As already said in message 7, Elizabeth Gaskell was friends with Charles Dickens. He even published several of her stories in his magazines.
He's also responsible for the title of this work, since Gaskell wanted to name it 'Margaret Hale'.

Several elements of Gaskell's life can be found in this book;
-both her father and her husband were Unitarian ministers, (Mr. Hale is minister in the Church of England),
-her older brother sailed with the East India Company, and went missing during one of the voyages. (Frederick is in exile overseas).
-Gaskell spent most of her years growing up at her aunt's (her mother died when she was one), much like Margaret spent many years as her aunts, as companion to her cousin.

Not chapter-related trivia part II

- The name 'Hale' is mentioned exactly 500 times in the novel.

- For people interested in a book with a similar industrial setting and the plight for social justice, I can reccomend Louis Paul Boon's Pieter Daens, of hoe in de negentiende eeuw de arbeiders van Aalst vochten tegen armoede en onrecht. Strictly speaking not a classic (it was first published in 1971), and not sure whether it's available in any other language than Dutch...
Or you could see the movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104046/?...

Not chapter-related trivia III

The house into which Gaskell and her husband moved in 1850, at 84 Plymouth Grove, Machester, has been turned into a museum (check them out on twitter (@GaskellsHouse), they organise all sorts of lectures and tea-parties and such...

At this house, they regularly had friends come and visit them, like
- Charlotte Brontë (of whom, after she died, Gaskell wrote a biography, at the request of Brönte's father);
- Charles Dickens
- Mary Howitt and Harriet Martineau (social reformers and dissidents; Howitt also wrote, amongst other things, the children's poem 'The Spider and The Fly'.
- At one point, Harriet Beecher Stowe visited the Gaskells...

Thank you very much, Mimi for sharing this interesting information. Didn't know Mrs. Gaskell wanted to name it 'Margaret Hale' but I've heard that name 'North and South' was influenced by Dickens. A fitting title to the story.

A photo of Elizabeth Gaskell's Home on 84 Plymouth Grove, Manchester M13 9LW, England

Thanks Mimi! The information is great and the home is beautiful!

Thanks for posting the picture, Lesle. Such a beautiful home!

I read this book recently so am not reading it again now - but thank you for the very interesting information about the author's background, Mimi.

Not chapter related observation.

In reading this book, along with other mid-19th Century Brit novels, I am often struck by the use of live-in servants by middle-class persons.
I am well aware of the employ of vast amounts of servants by the upper crust in early 20th century stories such as Downton Abbey, Upstairs/Downstairs, Remains of the Day, etc., but its the middle class employ of one or more workers in Victorian England that I find interesting, as an economic and social custom.
(Minor possible Spoiler) I know affordability is an issue in this story, but Ms. Hale doesn't seem to do any housework. Is it because Mr. Hale was a minister? Or is it as someone says they are putting on airs?

Regarding Brian's post #33

It's a social thing. The Hale's are upper-middle class (and Mrs Hale 'married down'), but as such, as lady of the house, she's brought up with the idea she's not supposed to do any house-work.
Live-in servants, or even 'girls-for-the-day' (servants that did not live in) were a status symbol, and highly coveted, especially by the middle-class, to signify their climbing on the social ladder.
It became almost a requirement, and the middle class would do almost anything to keep up appearances, even when times are though.

The sentiment still lives on today, and appearances are important to certain people. Like those who will take out a loan, just so they can say they went to the other side of the globe for their holiday (and pay through the nose the rest of the year), or people leasing an expensive car, just to show off to friends and family, but their dinner (which nobody can see), consists of bread and water...

Mimi, you're right, its just surprising to me how far down the economic ladder the 'need' to avoid doing housework as a status symbol stretched -as you say to the middle-class trying to look like upper-class.
I guess, for purposes of this story, it also enhances the North/South dichotomy because someone of Hale's economic position probably wouldn't have servants in the North, but might strive to in the more aristocratic South, where this status symbol is more important than work ethic and practical economics.

Brian, I don't think the north/south contrast is at play here.
Social climbing is not related to economic climbing (although money is usually needed to be able to climb up the ladder). Being a minister is what makes Mr Hale middle class, and even in the north, he would have had a live-in housekeeper or domestic.

On second thought, maybe the contrast is at play here. People in the north working to the bone, trying to survive in harsh circumstances, whilst the south can live off the bounty of the land, and has time to be frivoulous...

But again, the social ladder and the economic ladder were two completely different things (see how Margaret looks down on 'shoppy' people, and it gives you an idea how people thought of economic climbers in Victorian times...)

General Observations:

i find Gaskell's style to be straightforward, not overly florid, a generally pleasant read. However, I do struggle with her depiction of the Higgins' urban working class speech. Dialect is often difficult and many 19th century novelists try with various degrees of success, but Gaskell's doesn't seem quite right.

I don't remember knowing about Gaskell until the 2007 PBS TV Cranford production and am very pleased to finally be reading her. There is a subdivision near me, built around 2000, that has British authors as street names. Gaskell Drive runs into Gissing Drive (connected by Dryden Wordsworh & Haggard), I first heard about George Gissing in NTLTRC. So some Springfield IL real estate developer knew about Gaskell and Gissing before me. Embarrassing. There's also a Marryat Drive after the author of NTLTRC's current YA book

Brian, I couldn't agree more with you about Gaskells writing. And the dialect takes a bit of effort, indeed.

I also only discovered Gaskell recently, after seeing the 2004 BBC adaptation of North & South (with Daniela Denby-Ashe and Richard Armitage).

As for the streetnames, don't fret, he probably just googled 'british classic authors' ;)

Mimi, I also saw and enjoyed the BBC North & South miniseries (Wives & Daughters also) but its been long enough for me to forget a lot of plot points. Skilled actors Anna Maxwell Smith (Bleak House) and Brendan Coyle (Downton Abbey) did make the Higgins more understandable.

Going out to dinner, I had driven through the subdivision last night and, since seeing the NTLTRC YA choice this month, it was the first time I realized the street was named after a Brit author named Marryat. I just chuckled at myself since I think of myself as so knowledgeable about literature yet I often learn how little I do know on this site. I love learning more.

Finished CHAPTER 24

The action does pick up in Chapter 22.

I will make a mea culpa on Mrs. Hale who I considered more lazy and whiny than truly ill.

Finished CHAPTER 28

I retract my mea culpa about Mrs. Hale. While she is truly ill, her natural self-centeredness remains intact. She is who I thought she was.

I have not had a chance to start this book yet, so I am way behind. It will be hard not to peek at the posts!

General Comment - Unimportant Spoiler At Best

I had never heard of New Forest before, but it is mentioned several times in this novel and then there is Marryat's YA novel of the month too. So now I know.

Rosemarie wrote: "I have not had a chance to start this book yet, so I am way behind. It will be hard not to peek at the posts!"

I'm on Chapter 41 and don't seem able to slow down, so I'm trying not to post. But, as Papa Tomato said to Baby Tomato after squishing him for lagging behind, "Ketch-Up!" (from Pulp Fiction)

I have read the first chapter and noticed the New Forest reference as well.

Funny..Ketch-Up! hahaha!

Sorry it doe not take much :)

After three chapters we have met two mothers and two daughters. The two mothers are both manipulative in their own ways. The two cousins consist of one spoiled young lady and her poor cousin, Margaret.

I was not sure whether I should join reading this book. But remembering the movie I decided to give it a try and find it really captive. Hope that I can stick to it as the summer holidays approach their end and lessons will start next week.

The New Forest is a beautiful area in the South of England, & property there is expensive.

As for the discussion about housework & servants, remember they didn't have all the machines we use now. Housework was hard work & took a long time.

Brian wrote: "Rosemarie wrote: "I have not had a chance to start this book yet, so I am way behind. It will be hard not to peek at the posts!"

I'm on Chapter 41 and don't seem able to slow down, so I'm trying n..."

Lol, Brian. I'm a few chapters behind, but cleared my reading schedule (Really, where did the last week go? It moved so fast, I had hardly time to breath).

North & South is definately my new most favourite classic book. I'll admit to being a bit apprehensive, and afraid because I had high hopes, but its been delivireing across the board, and then some. It's great.