Classics for Beginners discussion

This is the thread for our August Group Read And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie. You are welcome to post anything related to the book of the author here. This is also the right thread for posting spoilers.

Here is some additional information:

Some excerpts from Wikipedia (I'll not put the plot summary here as it gives everything away and despite this being the spoiler thread, who would want that?!):

Introduction
And Then There Were None is a mystery novel by English writer Agatha Christie, widely considered her masterpiece and described by her as the most difficult of her books to write. It was first published in the United Kingdom by the Collins Crime Club on 6 November 1939, as Ten Little Niggers, after the British blackface song, which serves as a major plot point. The US edition was not released until December 1939; its American reprints and adaptations were all retitled And Then There Were None, after the last five words in the nursery rhyme "Ten Little Indians".
It is Christie's best-selling novel; with more than 100 million copies sold, it is also the world's best-selling mystery and one of the best-selling books of all time. Publications International lists the novel as the seventh best-selling title.

Premise (Be aware, even this gives something away! If you want to avoid this, jump to the next section as this is entirely spoiler-free.)
In the novel, a group of people are lured into coming to an island under different pretexts, e.g., offers of employment, to enjoy a late summer holiday, or to meet old friends. All have been complicit in the deaths of other human beings, but either escaped justice or committed an act that was not subject to legal sanction. The guests and two servants who are present are "charged" with their respective "crimes" by a gramophone recording after dinner the first night, and informed that they have been brought to the island to pay for their actions. They are the only people on the island, and cannot escape due to the distance from the mainland and the inclement weather, and gradually all ten are killed in turn, each in a manner that seems to parallel the deaths in the nursery rhyme. Nobody else seems to be left alive on the island by the time of the apparent last death. A confession, in the form of a postscript to the novel, unveils how the killings took place and who was responsible.

Literary significance and reception
And Then There Were None is one of Agatha Christie's best-known mysteries, widely considered her masterpiece and described by her as the most difficult of her books to have written. Writing for The Times Literary Supplement of 11 November 1939, Maurice Percy Ashley stated, "If her latest story has scarcely any detection in it there is no scarcity of murders... There is a certain feeling of monotony inescapable in the regularity of the deaths which is better suited to a serialized newspaper story than a full-length novel. Yet there is an ingenious problem to solve in naming the murderer", he continued. "It will be an extremely astute reader who guesses correctly."
Many other reviews were also complimentary; in The New York Times Book Review (25 February 1940), Isaac Anderson detailed the set-up of the plot up to the point where "the voice" accuses the ten "guests" of their past crimes or sins, which have all resulted in the deaths of other human beings, and then said, "When you read what happens after that you will not believe it, but you will keep on reading, and as one incredible event is followed by another even more incredible you will still keep on reading. The whole thing is utterly impossible and utterly fascinating. It is the most baffling mystery that Agatha Christie has ever written, and if any other writer has ever surpassed it for sheer puzzlement the name escapes our memory. We are referring, of course, to mysteries that have logical explanations, as this one has. It is a tall story, to be sure, but it could have happened."
Such was the quality of Christie's work on this book that many compared it to her novel The Murder of Roger Ackroyd (1926). For instance, an unnamed reviewer in the Toronto Daily Star of 16 March 1940 said, "Others have written better mysteries than Agatha Christie, but no one can touch her for ingenious plot and surprise ending. With And Then There Were None... she is at her most ingenious and most surprising... is, indeed, considerably above the standard of her last few works and close to the Roger Ackroyd level."
Other critics laud the use of plot twists and surprise endings. Maurice Richardson wrote a rhapsodic review in The Observer's issue of 5 November 1939 which began, "No wonder Agatha Christie's latest has sent her publishers into a vatic trance. We will refrain, however, from any invidious comparisons with Roger Ackroyd and be content with saying that Ten Little Niggers is one of the very best, most genuinely bewildering Christies yet written. We will also have to refrain from reviewing it thoroughly, as it is so full of shocks that even the mildest revelation would spoil some surprise from somebody, and I am sure that you would rather have your entertainment kept fresh than criticism pure." After stating the set-up of the plot, Richardson concluded, "Story telling and characterisation are right at the top of Mrs Christie's baleful form. Her plot may be highly artificial, but it is neat, brilliantly cunning, soundly constructed, and free from any of those red-herring false trails which sometimes disfigure her work."
Robert Barnard, a recent critic, concurred with the reviews, describing the book as "Suspenseful and menacing detective-story-cum-thriller. The closed setting with the succession of deaths is here taken to its logical conclusion, and the dangers of ludicrousness and sheer reader-disbelief are skillfully avoided. Probably the best-known Christie, and justifiably among the most popular."
The original title of the mystery (Ten Little Niggers) has long been abandoned as offensive in English-speaking countries and a number of others. Some critics have opined that Christie's original title and the setting on "Nigger Island" (later changed to "Indian Island" and "Soldier Island", variously) may be integral to the work. These aspects of the novel, argues Alison Light, "could be relied upon automatically to conjure up a thrilling 'otherness', a place where revelations about the 'dark side' of the English would be appropriate." Unlike novels such as Heart of Darkness, "Christie's location is both more domesticated and privatised, taking for granted the construction of racial fears woven into psychic life as early as the nursery. If her story suggests how easy it is to play upon such fears, it is also a reminder of how intimately tied they are to sources of pleasure and enjoyment."
In the "Binge!" article of Entertainment Weekly Issue #1343-44 (26 December 2014–3 January 2015), the writers picked And Then There Were None as an "EW favorite" on the list of the "Nine Great Christie Novels".

There are many movie, TV and theatre adaptations. The 1945 movie adaptation is the most well known, you can find it on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r00h...

The ending is very different. I watched it once, I kinda liked it (if you like old movies in general) but preferred the book a lot over it.

You can also find a 1987 Soviet adaptation on YouTube. I haven't watched it but apparently it is very close to the book:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUntF...

And in 2015 a new BBC TV series was broadcast. Has anyone watched it? Generally, I am a big fan of the BBC book adaptations and often find them very well done, so I would be curious to hear any opinions about it.

Nina wrote: "There are many movie, TV and theatre adaptations. The 1945 movie adaptation is the most well known, you can find it on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r00h...

The ending is very diffe..."

Followed the link and it says movie is not available. Bummer! I have seen it a few times, but am always up for another viewing. As for the ending, I heard that they asked her to change the ending for the stage version, which is the ending they kept when they made the movie.

Heather L wrote: "Nina wrote: "There are many movie, TV and theatre adaptations. The 1945 movie adaptation is the most well known, you can find it on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r00h...

The ending ..."

I'm sorry to hear that! It might have something to do with copyrights in your country? I checked the link again and for me it works. Anyone else having the same trouble as Heather L?

One of the most copied plots of all time. Here's something I noticed:

The judge murders people because they deserve it and puzzles are fun.

Agatha Christie murders characters because they deserve it and puzzles are fun.

So I think the judge is the dark side of AC.

Wow, that's such an interesting thought!

As it's rather quiet in this thread: who is reading the book or still planning to join later this month?

I have read the book previously.

Was the murderer justified in doing what he did? Could (s)he have been wrong in their judgments?

Do you agree with the assessment that this was Agatha Christie's greatest novel? If so, why?

I wasn't planning to as I have read it twice previously, the last time about five years ago, but may reread it again after all.

And guess what I started over the weekend...? Halfway through. Probably would have gotten further than I did had I not been battling a headache all weekend. Made it difficult to read for long stretches. :-\

Haha, that's great to hear, Heather! (About the book, not the headache obviously, very sorry to hear about that, hope you're feeling better by now!)

So, how do you like it this time?

I have actually read this some years ago and planned to listen to an audio version of it but I couldn't find a single free one. If anyone has a recommendation, I'd be more than happy.

☯Emily wrote: "I have read the book previously.

Was the murderer justified in doing what he did? Could (s)he have been wrong in their judgments?"

I will try to put down my thoughts about this, though it's been 3 or 4 years since I've read the book, so some of my memories are vague, my apologies for that.

I generally think that that murder is never justified. So, in my opinion, no, he was certainly not justified to murder all these people.

Was he justified to ' judge' them (in the broader sense of the word, independent of the punishment)? I would be more willing to say yes to this question. As far as I remember none of the cases was a typical murder-case, is that tight? That's what I remember at least and that that's why everyone escaped the 'official' conviction. Anyhow, the gravity of their murders certainly differs. To me there's a world of a difference between this young guys (can't remember his name) who killed the kid with his car and never showed any remorse on the one hand and then the young girl on the other hand. I don't clearly remember her case but wasn't it more a case of negligence? Of course, the result of both cases was the same - someone died - but ethically those are not comparable to me.

Nina wrote: "As far as I remember none of the cases was a typical murder-case, is that tight? That's what I remember at least and that that's why everyone escaped the 'official' conviction."


Yes, you are correct. None of the "accused" were found guilty, either because of lack of proof, hazard of the job, or ill health that may have been at fault, etc., Also, there is the case of Mrs. Brent, who let go a pregnant girl in her employ who then committed suicide. She is found "guilty" by U.N. Owen for lack of compassion, more than an actual act of murder.

Like you, I agree that there is a difference in degrees of "guilt." There's a big difference between Marston and Vera's cases, for instance. Marston killed two children while speeding. Although guilt was likely provable, a jury may have ruled it "no fault" if a) no one was watching the children and b) it was ruled they darted into the road and he had no time to stop (even if he hadn't been speeding). The fact he shows no remorse, though, is reprehensible.

In Vera's case, a child she was watching swam out too far and she was unable to reach him in time. Based on her flashbacks, it's apparent she may not have been watching him closely, but we don't know if there were other mitigating circumstances, either, such as undertow or how far ahead of her he was. The fact she now has nightmares about the sea and can't stand to even listen to the ocean shows that she at least feels some remorse.

Am I remembering this wrong? I have the impression that vera did not try all that hard to rescue the kid. She could've saved him if she really felt like it.

Phil wrote: "Am I remembering this wrong? I have the impression that vera did not try all that hard to rescue the kid. She could've saved him if she really felt like it."

Maybe you're right, Phil, as I said it's been some years since I've read this. Still, to me, it makes a big difference that she seems to truly regret what happened whereas Marston does not at all (thanks for reminding me of the names, Heather!).

Now that I've finished the book I can speak a bit more on this...

In her flashbacks, there was a bit of dialogue between Vera and the whiny brat in which she finally consented to let him swim out to the rock while she distracted his mother. It also says that there was an undertow that pulled her out to sea where she was barely rescued. So yeah, she may have actually been guilty, she may not have. There's nothing to show her state of mind during her pursuit of the boy. Did she regret letting him try for the rock at the last minute? We don't know, but there was eye-witness testimony that she did try to save him.

How did you like reading it again, Heather, while knowing who actually is the murderer?

Nina,

Still a good read, worth reading again. And, since the last reading was five years ago, though I knew whodunit, there was still a lot I didn't remember or was vague on.

I read this a couple of years ago, and Nina, I did watch the BBC version which liked, but I had not seen a stage play not long before which was amazing, so I think the BBC series suffered by comparison for me. I'm thinking of listening to it for this if I get time. I do love it.