ManBookering discussion

This is a discussion thread for Autumn by Ali Smith. Please be courteous of spoilers; if you are going to discuss them, give fair warning of page/chapter number or use the spoiler tag. Thanks! Happy discussing.

An AMAZING novel!!! Ali Smith at her best (mind you when is she not at her best?) Here's my GR review:


Am I biased? Personally Ali Smith can do no wrong. Her books combine fierce intelligence with playful elements. Art, feminism, politics. You name it, she squeezes it in and comes out with something coherent and fun to read.

Essentially Autumn is a Brexit novel. However this is Ali Smith so that main theme is entwined with the life of artist Pauline Boty, A girl's platonic relationship with a old man and an auction show. Although the main message is that Brexit Britain has become a breeding ground for intolerant racist people who cling to the past there are other jabs - attitudes towards female artists, media, same sex couplings, world war - in which Smith tries to draw a parallel with contemporary Britain. It is absolutely dazzling.

One of Ali Smith's talents is creating a seemingly banal scene and then stuffing it with so much meaning that the reader has to stop and reflect on that passage. This happened quite a few times to me - especially during the 'Goldilocks' segment of the book. As always there are laugh ut loud moments which are serious as well. I'm referring to the main protagonist applying for her passport, which becomes a sort of running gag throughout the novel.

I can say so much more but really a paltry review like this cannot do Autumn any justice in the least. At this point I do wish that this novel will win the 2017 Booker. I definitely think it will be shortlisted though.

For anyone able to get to Wimbledon we have Ali Smith coming, shortly pre the Booker announcement, to our local Bookfest: she will be discussing Autumn and also giving a sneak preview of Winter.

https://wimbledonbookfest.org/Events/...

Sounds great

I've just started it today, and I have to say Ali Smith is a hit-or-miss author for me, so we shall see. But I had a thing for Pauline Boty when I was young, so...

Britta wrote: "I've just started it today, and I have to say Ali Smith is a hit-or-miss author for me, so we shall see. But I had a thing for Pauline Boty when I was young, so..."

Finished it and loved it!

Britta wrote: "Britta wrote: "I've just started it today, and I have to say Ali Smith is a hit-or-miss author for me, so we shall see. But I had a thing for Pauline Boty when I was young, so..."

Finished it and ..."

Hooray! With our history and me loving it so much, I felt sure you would hate it! So pleased you liked it.

Neil wrote: "Britta wrote: "Britta wrote: "I've just started it today, and I have to say Ali Smith is a hit-or-miss author for me, so we shall see. But I had a thing for Pauline Boty when I was young, so..."

F..."

Hooray, indeed! But dont worry to much about us agreeing all of a sudden: I also loved History of Wolves which I read a couple of weeks back. So we're still good. :-)

:-)

I can't wait to read this one. "How to be both" getting longlisted a couple years back is what introduced me to Ali Smith and I absolutely adored that book. So I'm super excited to read this once it comes in from the library!

Hurrah. How to be Both is in my top ten of fave books ever. I got into Ali Smith through The Accidental, which is brilliant.

How to be Both is also a contender for my all time favourite top ten, but I read Autumn when it came out and didn't really like it... I do like Ali Smith a lot so I think I'll be re-reading with an open mind in the hope that I just didn't get it first time around...

I agree David. From my initial read through of 11 of the shortlist this is in the bottom 3 which is a shame as I really like Ali Smith.

Am starting to re-read through a lot of the list currently so my views may change.

I read Autumn last November and I loved it. I enjoyed the characters, the intertextuality and all the themes taken up. This book had me laughing and thinking and underlying quotes. I still think about certain scenes in the novel. It would be a shame if it is not on the shortlist. (Besides all the wonderful things this novel does, it made me want to know everything there was to know about Pauline Boty.)

Ali Smith has always been a 'hit-or-miss-author for me, but I absolutely loved Autumn. (Just finished it last weekend).

It's one of those books that, when you read it, feels as if somebody has opened a window in your brain, and you learn something new. (That doesnt make sense at all, probably...). The language and the topics were the main reasons I enjoyed it so much. It's not a plot-driven book (there is hardly any plot) it's mainly about characters, and friendship and art, and yes, a little bit about politics, too.
To call it a Brexit-novel is a bit of a stretch, though, the Brexit-pieces are not the most important parts of the book, I think.

(view spoiler)[The parts I enjoyed least were actually the few plotlines, esp. the story about the love interest of the mother, I thought that was very 'forced' and didnt convince me at all. It felt as if Smith almost felt obliged to add some gay love story to be politically correct. How did you guys feel about Wendy and Zoe?(view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

Britta wrote: "Ali Smith has always been a 'hit-or-miss-author for me, but I absolutely loved Autumn. (Just finished it last weekend).

It's one of those books that, when you read it, feels as if somebody has op..."

I am almost at a loss for words when you and I agree so much on a book! But I completely understand the opening window comment - I get that a lot with Ali Smith, not just in this book. And I'm not that worried about plot - I'm just along for the ride because her language takes me to such interesting places.

I agree with the 'spoiler' bit but more because I felt that it did not contribute to the story as such.

I think the whole novel reflects brexit attitude - more than the event itself - for example the conversations between daniel and elisabeth about giving things the benefit of the doubt or the attitude to media in general, even the bit with the foreigners and the taxi. Plus when we have the sections about Daniel's sister's past, I assume Ali Smith is comparing modern day Britain with that time period (gosh I'm trying not to put in so many spoilers) Maybe I am interpreting incorrectly though.

Neil wrote: "Britta wrote: "Ali Smith has always been a 'hit-or-miss-author for me, but I absolutely loved Autumn. (Just finished it last weekend).

It's one of those books that, when you read it, feels as if ..."

Haha, I just posted a not so positive comment on Underground Railroad... And re Ali Smith: your approach is probably the best way to read Ali Smith. But - as you might know - I am normally a very plot-driven reader, and its rare for me to enjoy a book without a substantial plot so much. But it happens sometimes, esp. if there is a topic that really fascinates me, and in Atumn it was art and politics.

I read this book shortly after it came out; I liked it so much I bought a copy for my daughter. I think it will make the shortlist.

I just finished! And I'm not completely sure how I feel about it. Writing-wise it was brilliant, of course. I completely agree with everything that's been said regarding Smith's writing style, especially Britta's comment a window opening up in your brain! Totally true. She's able to pack so much into each moment, and even if you can't catch everything she's saying, I feel like there is often one thing that slips in and completely flips a switch in your mind. I had a few strong "aha!" moments while reading this book.

I also laughed a few times which doesn't happen too often in the books I tend to read. But of course Smith is witty and sharp and has a sly sense of humor.

However, I did find the plot suffered a bit. I understand that with Smith's books there often isn't a central plot, and that's okay. But the last 1/3 sort of lost me. Things felt rushed. (view spoiler)[I didn't feel as attached to the Boty story as much as I did to Elisabeth's discovery of it. I would've rather read more about her relationship with Daniel and his relationship with Boty. Also Elisabeth's mother's relationship seemed to come out of nowhere? Or did I just not see it coming?
(hide spoiler)]

Overall though I enjoyed this one. I wouldn't be surprised to see it on the shortlist, not only because Smith is a Booker darling but also because it seems very timely, it's well written, and it's the start of a series that I can only assume will continue to get longlisted. Also she hasn't won yet! This might be her year. 4th time the charm?

Adding to the spoilery discussion:

(view spoiler)[I guess I am here in the minority for I actually liked the relationship between Wendy and Zoe and their story lines in general. But I also find it difficult to pinpoint why it worked for me. May be it was just something I needed to read at that time (and isn't that one of the wonderful things literature can do, providing you with narratives you might crave ).

Regarding the part about Boty: I enjoyed discovering more about her, but also reading about Elisabeth's fascination with her and her drive to work on her. As someone who had to convince a lecturer in university that there might be female African thinkers and we don't have to speak an entire semester about men only, I did identify with her struggle. (hide spoiler)]

Reading all your comments, I really feel like re-reading the book rather sooner than later.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who found this particular quote to be pressingly relevant to our current situation here in the states.

“I'm tired of the news. I'm tired of the way it makes things spectacular that aren't, and deals so simplistically with what's truly appalling. I'm tired of the vitriol. I'm tired of anger. I'm tired of the meanness. I'm tired of selfishness. I'm tired of how we're doing nothing to stop it. I'm tired of how we're encourageing it. I'm tired of the violence that's on it's way, that's coming, that hasn't happened yet. I'm tired of liars. I'm tired of sanctified liars. I'm tired of how those liars have let this happen. I'm tired of having to wonder whether they did it out of stupidity or did it on purpose. I'm tired of lying governments. I'm tired of people not caring whether they're being lied to anymore. I'm tired of being made to feel this fearful.”

With the current social and political times being so thoughtfully addressed in this novel, I highly expect it to make the short list and possibly take the prize.

Yes interesting Corey.

From a Brexit perspective this comment actually felt rather dated (Brexit seems to have become more an administrative nightmare than vitriolic) but when one sees what is happening in the US, I rather did her a disservice by suggesting she ought to update the book for Trump.

I will be disappointed if it's not on the shortlist but there is some tough competition this year. I doubt many of last year's shortlist would get a look in if they'd been published this.

Not to get too political (ha!), as someone from the U.S., I still felt like the book too be extremely relevant, and a lot of her commentary on Brexit were eerily similar to many thoughts on the American political climate. That alone makes me think this book will get shortlisted.
And I feel like it deserves a re-read at some point too. I'd be curious to see how I'd feel about it 5-10 years down the road.

I read this one pretty recently, and I have to say, it was quite something. Loving all the comments on this feed. I, too, feel like I will be rereading it, and probably very soon (especially if it makes the shortlist, which I believe it will). So many layers! There is so much there, and I feel like I probably missed a lot on a first read and that there is so much more to be discovered. That's what the Booker loves, right?

I think Maxwell hit it on the head when he said that she packs so much into each moment, and also that she slips things in that completely hit a switch in your mind. To me, it read like poetry sometimes, and even with reading it once, I found myself reading slowly and pausing and rereading sections.

I did have some issues - same as those mentioned in the spoilers above - but wondering if perhaps I'll find something new on a second reading.

Feel kind of embarrassed that this was my first Ali Smith. There are clearly some fans here.

I loved this one, and I am struggling to decide whether it deserves to win more or less than Reservoir 13. As always, Smith darts between subjects in a way that can seem random but always has an underlying logic. The topical stuff about Brexit still reads well several months later, but the heart of the book is the story of the forgotten 60s pop artist Pauline Boty. As in her earlier books Like and There but for the, she writes brilliantly about precocious children and how they learn.

I read this last year when it was published and unlike most of the longlist I have not yet managed a re-read, which I will do next week when my library copy arrives. However to add a dissenting voice here, on my first read through I found the Brexit coverage poor - or more precisely I felt it guilty of being part of the "echo chamber" i.e it reflected exactly the views on Brexit that most Ali Smith fans (and I include myself) believe rather than challenging our (and her own) assumptions. I remember feeling that it would not change the mind of a Brexit supporter and may in fact (like a lot of liberal commentary) only entrench their views. Any thoughts?

I felt it guilty of being part of the "echo chamber" i.e it reflected exactly the views on Brexit that most Ali Smith fans (and I include myself) believe rather than challenging our (and her own) assumptions.

Is that a problem though? - it is how 48% of the UK felt and still feel. Not quite sure why Brexit opponents should renounce what they believe in just because they narrowly lost a vote.

Unless Ali Smith said publicly that she wanted to challenge us reader's views on brexit, I don't see anything wrong.

Gumble, I see your point, but I don't think many Brexit supporters will ever read the likes of Ali Smith, and I think she has every right to say it as she sees it, in purely human terms. The real unproven argument of the Brexiteers is the economic one, which could take many years to test and would be a very dull literary subject, and in my experience people are still as divided as ever - I have friends on the leave side and I switch off every time they return to the subject...

It's been a long time (and around 120 books) since I read this so my recall is hazy, but I remember being struck that the commentary was not very subtle (anti European graffiti, a large wall erected) and the kind of thing I could and was reading every day in Guardian commentaries.

I do wonder if there is a little of a liberal bias in the longlist picked this year (Exit West, Underground Railroad, Autumn, Swing Time, Lincoln in the Bardo, possibly 4321, even Elmet) and that something like Gallows Pole would have made a fascinating contrast. I did not like everything in Gallows Pole but found it provocative and challenging.

I guess though on reflection that the real contrast this year is between the political and topical novels (including Home Fire to this list) and the deliberately apolitical ones like Reservoir 13 and Solar Bones.

I've just read this one and loved it so, that even though it's my first of the longlist and it's my first Ali Smith, I want it to win the booker so bad!

I loved the structure of it, short chapters focusing more on the spreading of ideas and the characters rather than the plot, and I sort of expected it from Smith. It reminded me a little of Herta Müller and her novel The Fox Was Ever The Hunter in which the focus is to make a cummulative experience, having each of the small chapters communicating some new thing.

About what Gumble said last: I just thought this book was first and foremost a love letter to friendship and a call to integration, which is everything against Brexit, but I don't think it's fair to call it a brexit novel, as Britta wisely remarked. It'd be to limit the novel and what it was trying to do. There were pretty explicit commentary on brexit, for sure, but I felt like it wasn't the main point. Which was, for me, to use the very human exemples of the characters befriending each other as a way of conveying its message of togetherness,


I loved lot's of quotes from it, some of which you already commented, and I don't have a great memory so I can only remember what's recent in my mind - that last section of Pauline Boty was so great! It sort of put us in Boty's persoective and made us move into her life as if on the fast-forward mode, only summarizing the most important aspects of her but making them alive and relevant...

It'll be a book that when I read again I'll find very different things in it...

Also about what's being discussed in SPOILERS (I don't know how to put sentences in spoiler, help me!) about zoe and elisabeth's mom, maybe it's because I'm naive, but I really just thought it was just a friendship relationship there - her mom sits on zoe's lap but they're stoned, so it doesn't count, and it's not like they kiss or make love ir whatever... and also their friendship rhymes so beautifully with what Daniel said to Elisabeth at the beginning, about meeting her, Finally (something elisabeth tells zoe in the end, like, she's [mom] been waiting for you for a long time).


Another thing, I admit I just read each of the first chapters (sections) of each part, the dream sections, in one go, and I stopped to think about them, but I'm curious of what else I'd be able to take out of them if I took these chapters and looked closer on them...

So that's it, I'm deciding now if I go read the Saunders' (probably the greatest competitor) or the other Smith's (not sure if it'll make it to the shortlist, I mean looking from the outside if feels like it'll be hard, so many well spoken about books this year)

Gabriel wrote: "I've just read this one and loved it so, that even though it's my first of the longlist and it's my first Ali Smith, I want it to win the booker so bad!

I loved the structure of it, short chapters..."

Gabriel, if you want to not spoil something for the rest of the group, you can add a "spoiler" at the end of your comment. Look top right above the comment box where it says, "(some html is ok)." In the box are formatting tips and toward the bottom is how to include a spoiler. You type in the html code; type in what you want to reveal to us as a 'spoiler'; then close it with the appropriate html as shown. You can italicize, bold, underline, etc.

Paula wrote: "Gabriel wrote: "I've just read this one and loved it so, that even though it's my first of the longlist and it's my first Ali Smith, I want it to win the booker so bad!

I loved the structure of it..."
Thank you very much <3

As mentioned in the general thread, here is a brief comment from the podcast interview with Lila Azam Zanganeh (LAZ) and Colin Thubron (CT) on the longlist selections.

Autumn
LAZ: Well, there’s another extraordinary stylist. She wrote this book under great time constraints…the trilogy. She writes like a poet, which is how prose should be written, and she writes about the England of today, and it also has a fable-like quality. I’m just in awe of how she can be both, sort of, of today and have a style that consistently and lyrically sparkles, shines and soars above so many other voices in today’s novel.

First Ali Smith for me and won't be the last. I really like her writing style, and as Maxwell mentioned above, it made me laugh out loud several times, which is not common.
I think the overall tone was about Brexit, but it was more subtle than the reviews of the book have made me believe. (view spoiler)[ One thing I wasn't particularly impressed by was Zoe and Wendy's relationship - it didn't add anything to the plot and made the ending feel rushed. I would have liked a lot more on Daniel and Elisabeth's friendship than that love story. (hide spoiler)]
There isn't much else to add to what has already been said - and I think this book will make the shortlist.

First Ali Smith for me as well, even though I bought Here but for the several years ago. I really, really enjoyed it. Every girl should have a Daniel!
I loved the relationship between the old man and the young girl. It was so clear in much of what young Elisabeth was saying that she was channeling what her mother had been saying and that Daniel challenged her and taught her to think for herself.
When you read the book, you think Elisabeth's mother is wrong when she tries to prevent Elisabeth from seeing Daniel. In real life, I would also be very skeptical if one of my daughters wanted to be friends with an older man like this. I remember my grandfather enjoyed going to the playground and watching the kids play and enjoyed talking to them - just because he was a kind man and liked children - and us warning him that some people might see this the wrong way. This books shows how much different generations benefit from being together. And how family is not just about blood.
In a way, I think the entire book was about Brexit if you see the book as being about tolerance, acceptance and friendship. I agree she's preaching to the choir and not changing anyone's view but I don't view that as a flaw.
I agree with the comment above about the text feeling like poetry, for instance the 'All across the country...' chapter.

I have rated this the lowest of the three books I've read so far (The Underground Railroad (5 stars), Lincoln in the Bardo (5 stars), Autumn (4 stars), however, this might be the one I most look forward to rereading down the line (probably when the entire series is out). I am very interested in reading more of Ali Smith's works as this was a impressive and very lyrical book - and at the moment, I would be happy to see it in the shortlist but I still have 10 books to read.

I have to admit that I remember not a detail about Autumn. I'd heard amazing comments about Ali Smith and dove in with high expectations. I was neither impressed with the wring or content, what resulted was a rating of 3 and nothing memorable after completion of the book.

I didn't like this one! It felt underdeveloped to me - so many ideas and not enough space to see them through. Clearly I'm in the minority though! I might have to re-read in a different head space.

Robert wrote: "An AMAZING novel!!! Ali Smith at her best (mind you when is she not at her best?) Here's my GR review:


Am I biased? Personally Ali Smith can do no wrong. Her books combine fierce intelligence wi..." Great review!

My first Ali Smith and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Gribbing plot isn't a must for me to love a book. I agree with others here that it'd be a stretch to call it a Brexit book; it only gave a few glimpse here and there, and only from the vantage point of the Stay camp. What I'll remember for years to come is The organic relationship between Daniel and Elisabeth. This is my favorite so far on the longlist after Underground Railroad, Lincoln in the Bardo and Spring Time. I'll move on to the others, but I definitely hope it'd make the shortlist!Thanks for Ali Smith fans here for her other title recommendations.

Do check out how to be both. It is excellent

Robert wrote: "Do check out how to be both. It is excellent" Thaks Robert. Added to TBR.

When I read this book last year I really enjoyed it. Ali Smith can be hit or miss for me, but this was a winner. In terms of Booker longlist, I think it's one of the quietest and most unassuming books on there. There's no real plot, it's not big in scope of what it tries to do, but I think it's one of the most well crafted. So far it's still my favourite and I'll be disappointed if it doesn't make the shortlist. The only thing against it, is that it isn't as recent a release, so all the buzz is a year old, which makes it not feel as current as some of the other choices.

Completely onboard with Pink here. It's not the most in your face book by way of plot, no big issues of race, sexual identity etc, but by far the most beautiful book for me on the list so far. My first Ali Smith and simply cannot wait for the following three books in this series.

Wen wrote: "My first Ali Smith and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Gribbing plot isn't a must for me to love a book. I agree with others here that it'd be a stretch to call it a Brexit book; it only gave a few glimps..."

I second Robert's How to be both recommendation, also her play The Seer is fantastic.

Autum was the first book I read from this year's longlist (having it read already shortly after it was published). Now having read some more from the list, it is still my favourite by far.

I finished "Autumn" this morning because I couldn't keep my eyes open a moment longer last night while reading in bed. It must be a 4.5 star for me because it was as close to amazing as it could be.

This one is my favorite of the MB-listed books I've read. So far, I've only five under my belt because I have to borrow from the library and they don't always have the MB-nominated books on hand. They have "Reservoir 13" on order and I'm looking forward to reading it based on what some of you have said in your comments.

The relationship between Daniel and Elisabeth brings me joy, especially their game about creating stories and the way he always asks, "What you reading?" (Bookworms both, my sister and I talk about our current reads enthusiastically.) Her defense of him to her mother indicates he had a huge impact on her.

The brexit content wasn't overly done, in my opinion, but done well, using strong emotion and pointing out examples of how people reacted. The inner story of the female pop artist was another way Ali Smith managed to help us understand the arts–writing, songwriting, and painting to name a few.

I wouldn't be put out at all if it won, especially since Smith has been previously close to a win.

I don't mind it winning. I feel it is the brightest and most spirit-lifting one on the shortlist. I know this isn't one of the judging factor but still:)

Britta wrote: "Ali Smith has always been a 'hit-or-miss-author for me, but I absolutely loved Autumn. (Just finished it last weekend).

It's one of those books that, when you read it, feels as if somebody has op..."

Regarding the spoiler part of your comment, my reaction was, "What the...?" I wondered where it fit because her mother was a fairly well-defined character already. I agree that it seemed "forced."

Having not been impressed with my first read of Autumn, I've re-read it and I feel surprised/unpopular/slightly shamed that I struggled to rate it. I love Ali Smith...well, at least I think I do... So recently I read There But For The just to see if its me. Found it to be OK. Now I've just re-read How to be Both and I love her again! What's the struggle, I hear myself ask myself? For me, How to be Both was tight...it all knitted together beautifully. There But For The had a structure to it, a bit tenuous but it came together reasonably. But I've just found Autumn to be a little bit forced and very random at times (the detailed bits about being part of a tree). By the end, I was fed up of Pauline Boty (if anyone else but Ali Smith had written this, I'd have used the word pretentious, but I genuinely believe that she isn't) and I just felt like I was being subtly having opinions and views formed for me. I didn't warm to either Daniel or Elisabeth and both times when I got to the end, I was left thinking "it that it?". Sure we can all eulogise about Ali's clever puns and descriptive scenes, but ultimately for me it should be about a good, tight plot. To be fair then, maybe its just me. It would be great to see Ali Smith win...second for me only to Colm Tobin (he's a trier, every year!). But I only wish Ali could have won with How to Be Both.