The Swerve discussion

Greenblatt stated that many of the books of antiquity were lost not from deliberate destruction, but through neglect. They were not recopied as was necessary, since paper manuscripts decay over time.

We are not actively destroying classical works today, but how many people still read them. How many "traditionalists" are familiar with our classical legacy? It seems to me that many people spend more time listening to the opinions of talk show hosts than doing any reading of their own.

“You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them.”
― Ray Bradbury

"The actual material disappearance of the books was largely the effect of climate and pests. Though papyrus and parchment were impressively long-lived (far more so than either our cheap paper or computerized data), books inevitably deteriorated over the centuries, even if they managed to escape the ravages of fire and flood...it was widely recognized that the best way to preserve books from being eaten into oblivion was simply to use them and, when they finally wore out, to make more copies"

-Stephen Greenblatt

You're so right, Matthew! I have the same thought as we sink deeper and deeper into a mire of superficiality and information overload. I loved the way The Swerve used story to both shine new light on the richness of Epicurus, and show us how easily our heritage of wisdom can be lost. The sad truth, it seems to me, is that most people do not think about these things, and are so easily manipulated by those who do not want them to start doing so.
Maybe you have read Iain Pears' I Dream of Scipio on a similar theme?

I would agree that the audience today for Epicurus or other great classic authors is likely a bit thin. But to some extent hasn't this always been the case? These authors were only read by the elites in their own days - and as a percentage of the population, the elites were likely small.

But does that make this a dark age? My sense is that the name - "Dark Age" is applied looking backwards to some earlier and less understood age for the boosting of popular feelings about a current age. I can imagine the members of the Medici Papal Court congratulating themselves on their enlightenment!

But beyond that, part of the brilliance of the book was that it concerned the near loss of the Epicurus manuscript until Poggio found it. Whatever one thinks about the current state of enlightenment and popular openness to the classics, I am typing this on a website where millions of users spend lots of time reviewing what they have read. This is happening in a world where I can download audio and text versions of most of the classics at little or no cost. I can sign up for MOOCs to learn about some of these classics in more depth for free. I can carry around many more texts in my hand than most educated and wealthy people in the Renaissance had in their libraries. These are, of course, mostly translations but I could download them in their original languages too and there are numerous web locations offering to instruct in Classical Latin or Greek for a modest fee. There does not appear to be a danger of the classical texts disappearing as there once was, so in that sense, our age does not appear to be a dark one.

Marks54 wrote: "I would agree that the audience today for Epicurus or other great classic authors is likely a bit thin. But to some extent hasn't this always been the case? These authors were only read by the el..."
The elites were certainly familiar with the classics. Thomas Jefferson no doubt lived and breathed them. Our founding fathers certainly looked back to Plutarch, Polybius, and various other classical writers when formulating our government, but it seems to me that the classics were taught to a fairly large group of individuals. The so-called Grammar Schools had that name because they taught Greek and Latin Grammar. Even the Puritans encouraged Classical Learning along with Biblical Studies.
Ben Franklin started the trend to read translations rather than the original, and it would certainly unrealistic to expect everyone today to read the original texts. I don't read Latin or Greek, so I am content reading translations. I also find that not all translations are created equal, but thanks to our information technology, I scan scan through various translations online before purchasing the one that seems to flow best.
So I agree with you that technology has actually made it easier to access information, but I still find it disconcerting when someone starts ranting about our Constitution and The Federalist Papers, while they don't even know who Publius was.

Jane wrote: Maybe you have read Iain Pears' I Dream of Scipio on a similar theme?


Haven't read it yet, but it's on my list.

Matthew,

I won't disagree with you regarding terrible state of public discourse today, especially re politics or history. There are many culprits, although if more reading and thought were required of students early on in their education it would be helpful. I suspect that while more books are being purchased today less careful reading is actually occurring.

I do have my doubts, however, about how enlightened past times really were (versus wishful thinking). For example, while some of the famous U.S. Civil War diaries were really elegant, studies of the popular political culture around the election of Lincoln and the Civil War show a crudeness that would make current attacks in Washington seem benign.

In terms of numbers actually reading the classics, most Americans were not even high school graduates until around 1920 or so. College attendance boomed after WWII of course, but that was more at the large state schools which have seldom been hotbeds for classical studies or liberal arts. I do lament the attack on gen ed classical requirements since the mid 1970s..

No, we are not going through a new Dark Age. Look down at your hands, right this second. What are they doing? Keyboard, right? Okay.

Go and read this: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

It proves that, in spite of all our whining and complaint, things are indeed getting better.

Brenda wrote: "No, we are not going through a new Dark Age. Look down at your hands, right this second. What are they doing? Keyboard, right? Okay.

Go and read this: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...-..."

Sounds like an interesting book, but there are already a lot on my too read list. Having recently read a significant portion of the Old Testament, I have to say that there is some truth to this quote from there:

“The scriptures present a God who delights in genocide, rape, slavery, and the execution of nonconformists, and for millennia those writings were used to rationalize the massacre of infidels, the ownership of women, the beating of children, dominion over animals, and the persecution of heretics and homosexuals. Humanitarian reforms such as the elimination of cruel punishment, the dissemination of empathy-inducing novels, and the abolition of slavery were met with fierce opposition in their time by ecclesiastical authorities and their apologists. The elevation of parochial values to the realm of the sacred is a license to dismiss other people’s interests, and an imperative to reject the possibility of compromise.”

I guess it's a question of what we mean by "Dark." Yes, everybody now has access to computers and unlimited resources, and yes, much more of the population can contribute to public discourse. The quality of that conversation is lower than it has ever been in my life, however. Sound bites aimed to appeal to attention spans fractured by keyboard mania are choking out critical thinking and analysis at a time when our survival depends on them. This is dark stuff. Is dark bad? Who knows? Epicurus is still with us!

Words, words, words. Never kill ya. Starvation, cholera, military invasion, blizzards and floods, now that's what you want if you want to really experience misery. No, call yourself lucky.

You got a mirror? Open your mouth and look at your teeth. Fillings? Me too. They did not exist, two hundred years ago. Every filling you see in there? Extraction was probably the only treatment in your grandfather's day. Think about it -- every filled tooth in your reflection, not there. Not fun.