World, Writing, Wealth discussion

A few pages, a few dozens? What volume makes a book or maybe it's not volume?

My first book, Jacaranda Blues was only 13,000 words, novellete or novella, according to some.

In what context are you asking the question? Are you getting at how short should it be to be published, since we simplistically call anything indie published an "ebook?" or are you asking how short does it have to be before we decide not to call it a book and instead call it a novella or short story?

Personally, with today's free-for-all style of publishing, I think people should put out there whatever they want. If they want to put out a thousand word short, good for them. If they want to hold out until they have a hundred thousands word story, then more power to them. It's a great time we live in where the markets truly dictate the content rather than a few content companies dictating to the markets what's available.

If you're asking what the lower limit is, I don't know. I've seen recently that 40k is the bottom for being considered a novel. Sounds fair enough though I could understand someone thinking it should be closer to 50k. My largest episode in the Depot-14 series came in above 32k and I still consider it in the novella category, so...

The concept of the novel is, and has been for a while, viewed as the major vehicle for storytelling. Furthermore, the term “novel” has almost become synonymous with “book” when talking about works of fiction, so many people probably think of the novella, the novelette, the tale, and the short story as something other than a “book.”

Buy why shouldn’t shorter works be thought of as “books”?

Just because something is longer doesn’t mean (necessarily) that it required more effort on the part of the writer. I think if a story accomplishes what it wants to do, regardless of length, then it is a book.

What about genre’s such as micro-fiction? That’s a little more difficult. Perhaps it’s worth pointing out that the Dictionary (yes, I consulted the Dictionary) always uses the plural “papers” or “sheets of paper” -- but perhaps I’m getting too technical.

Daniel J. wrote: "I think if a story accomplishes what it wants to do, regardless of length, then it is a book. ..."

Toddler + lit too rarely competes in lengthiest tome competitions..

As a reader, I categorize them as short stories (up to 25 pages), novella (26 to 125), and the rest are Novels or Books.

Some are collections and I organize those into the same types and categories.

Mostly, I want to know before I buy or when free or borrowing before I read. The prior being cost; the latter being time and expectations.

What's the shortest book you've read?

The Harvest Gypsies - Steinbeck, is the shortest for awhile.

I thought I'd read all of Steinbeck. Thanks for mentioning that one. He also wrote another couple of short ones: The Red Pony (128 pages) and Of Mice and Men (107 pages).

I always considered a novel to be the word-count of 40,000-60,000 words (at the least). I do believe that technology is changing this. I think there are more and more readers who want stories that are more of a novelette or novella in length (just a personal opinion).

Apparently, novellas were very popular in the late 19thC and quite a few of the books we regard as 'classics' are in this format.

I've always understood a short story to be <15k words, a novella 15-40k, and a novel >40k, although most modern novels are 70k words +.

Not sure about the shortest novella I've read but this one is probably my favourite:

A Christmas Carol

The late 19th century also had some rather long novels, many of them, e.g. by Dickens, written and published in serial form, an episode a week.

I could never become tired of the story, A Christmas Carol.

Love novellas, and also serials. I wish they would bring back those old magazine fiction-serials (there are not many left that I have found an interest in).

I understand that there are many online, I prefer real magazines (I know, that is not very environmental conscious of me. I'm hoping for more books produced with paper made from grass, bamboo, etc resources).

There were also serial books that were sold as inexpensive paper-bound editions at the grocery checkout stand (chapbooks??).

On the 19thC serials, I know the following was first published in that format. It's always been one of my favourites:

The Pickwick Papers

Great idea about the grass, bamboo book production, Ann.

As for books made from grass, bamboo, why not support Egypt and go back to the beginning? I once purchased an interesting copy of a message on papyrus.

Ian wrote: "As for books made from grass, bamboo, why not support Egypt and go back to the beginning? I once purchased an interesting copy of a message on papyrus."

Ian J. Miller, fascinating. I believe publishers need to really, truly consider such things (again), because "real" books need to survive these modern times.

I wonder where Beau went?

Ann wrote: ".... I wonder where Beau went?..."

I guess to rest from corona-frightened companions and maybe to spearhead the resistance :)
Hope he'll be back tranquil and rejuvenated

Hopefully not incapacitated with said corona :-(

I hope he comes back. The more points of view, the better.

Depends on the audience.

Hope Beau is well and safe. Maybe he's just working on his next book or story??

Ann wrote: "... Maybe he's just working on his next book or story??"

Certainly, one of many possibilities of Beau's further course :)

Nik wrote: "Ann wrote: ".... I wonder where Beau went?..."

I guess to rest from corona-frightened companions and maybe to spearhead the resistance :)
Hope he'll be back tranquil and rejuvenated"

I think he just needs a break. It is starting to really wear on him.

I don't like serials. I don't like books that have To Be Continued as part of their setup. I want a book to take me away for a decent amount of time. To do that, I have to become invested in the characters, the world they inhabit, and the story. To do that well, I think, generally, requires a book be of at least a certain length. I have no objection to there being ongoing books with those same characters, just don't leave me on a cliff to engender sales.

I read some short stories, knowing that it's 30 pages or less, and have found some by authors that I really enjoy. I usually read those short stories when I need something to read for the next half hour or so but want to be certain that opening a book is not going to result in me being sucked in and reading too long. However, I don't spend my money on those short stories.

There was a time in my life when I could sit and read 500+ page books, and was really happy when they were longer. Nowadays, I feel like I can't concentrate on that length of a book.

I also like the book to be of a reasonable length, and finish at least something. A series is fine, but each book should have some self-contained story. Even if more story will continue, I think each book should complete something, even if it flags that some further story must follow. I hate cliff-hangers and refuse to buy the next one.

according to Goodreads, last year my shortest book was 11 pages and the longest was 1067, though my average book length was 258, the latter being about where I like a book these days. (2020 was based on 147 books.

According to my stats since I started marking books in here, those years I was reading more than 200 books, I was also reading a lot more pages within a bookset. I was reading too much and felt I needed to cut down. Of course, the other things I planned to do really just resulted in more computer and TV time.

I'm rarely into short stories, but there are powerful compilations of say - O. Henry or about Sherlock Holmes. Used to enjoy longer stuff, but less so in recent years. Prefer pace over elaborate descriptions

I love short stories. For me, it is the ultimate test for a writer. Can they get it across in limited space. I have read plenty of short books and plenty of long books. I really enjoy them between 400 and 500 pages. That is for the non-fiction. As for cliff hangers, it really depends if it is cliche or not.

I use to read multiple books at a time, and finish them all quick (within days or weeks). Now it takes me a long time to finish a single book. I think I've become used to pacing out novels like serials, finding stopping points and returning when I have chances to read.

When it comes to my stories, I favorite writing short stories and novellas. It has always been a goal of mine to write a series or a serial. I've tried my hand at flash-fiction, and always continue the story into a short LOL.

Has anyone ever joined in on a story written by multiple writers? I mean a story built up by random, short posts by a community of writers? I don't know if I would ever join-in on a community-written story, but I would like to read one some day. I believe it would be something like a serial if I followed the story while it is being built??

The shortest book I know of, based on word count, was zero words, other than on the outside cover. Politically based, it was entitled something like "The achievements of the (other party) " It actually sold out, presumably to devoted followers, or to some who liked a joke.

Ann wrote: ".....Has anyone ever joined in on a story written by multiple writers? I mean a story built up by random, short posts by a community of writers? ..."

In my last two books, I'm honored to have one chapter in each, written by a guest -star author. I thought it was cool and I hope some readers would think the same.
We have "One morning in the office" thread in the lounge, which can be viewed as a community propulsion satire episodes/story.

Nik wrote: "In my last two books, I'm honored to have one chapter in each, written by a guest -star author. ..."

Nik Krasno, that is interesting. I've heard about introductions written by a guest, yet never a chapter. That is neat.

Thank you, I will check out that thread :-D.

Ian wrote: "The shortest book I know of, based on word count, was zero words, other than on the outside cover. Politically based, it was entitled something like "The achievements of the (other party) " It actu..."

Now that is a win

Nik wrote: "Ann wrote: ".....Has anyone ever joined in on a story written by multiple writers? I mean a story built up by random, short posts by a community of writers? ..."

In my last two books, I'm honored ..."

That's a cool idea.

I'm not much on short stories, but I do keep a book of them by the bed in case I run out of something to read. Annie Proulx has written some good short stories.

Ann wrote: "... Nik Krasno, that is interesting. I've heard about introductions written by a guest, yet never a chapter. That is neat...."

Thank you too, Ann :)

For a joke on another forum, I threw together a short erotica story playing into one of the tropes on the forum, and listed it on Amazon. Every now and then, I'll link to it to beat the joke further into the ground, and the other day someone joked back about how short it is, and I mentioned how there are tons of stories in the 2-10 page range passed off as "books" and given price tags of $2.99 and up.

To the original question, someone in publishing once told me that a "novel" was at least 45,000 words, that anything under 40,000 and you are getting into novellas.
I love good short stories - Shirley Jackson, Roald Dahl - lately I was loaned a few anthologies from a British publisher, MX Publishing that are new Sherlock Holmes stories. A group of writers from all over the world are included. I'm a big fan of Sherlock Holmes stories and some of these are really good.

This article is interesting in spelling out word count and it really being about publishers and their willingness to print less or more.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/5...

In perusing articles on the subject, it is interesting that because of ebooks, novellas have become more acceptable. Readers want something more than a lunchtime read but not a committment to 75,000 word books with the electronic platform providing an economic way to publish novellas.

There is the shortest story written by Hemingway. Just 6 words: Baby shoes for sale. Not used.

Olga wrote: "There is the shortest story written by Hemingway. Just 6 words: Baby shoes for sale. Not used."

I came across that when looking up the subject of length of types of stories. Everything I read pretty much said it's not true. That is came about in the 90s as part of a play about Hemminway, but not actual fact. I don't know.

Setting that aside, imgine turning in a one sentence long paper as a short story in high school or college. I don't think it would have goten us far.

Olga wrote: "There is the shortest story written by Hemingway. Just 6 words: Baby shoes for sale. Not used."

However poignant, I'd say that's two sentences, not a short story or novel by any means.

Lizzie wrote: "This article is interesting in spelling out word count and it really being about publishers and their willingness to print less or more.

Good point - and willingness is also about cost. It isn't really cost effective to print and bind and ship a 90 page novella, which is one reason collections and anthologies are pretty popular. But the e- formats have provided a viable route for publication .

The question is not about story length, but what makes a book. I am willing to bet if you put the Hemingway line within a hardback and call it a special edition, it would meet the definition of a book.

Papaphilly wrote: "The question is not about story length, but what makes a book. I am willing to bet if you put the Hemingway line within a hardback and call it a special edition, it would meet the definition of a b..."

I wouldn't buy it. I won't buy Star Trek e-books that are less than 100 pages for 99 cents, and I really like Star Trek. It's just not a book to me. I have bought some collections when it has an author or a story within a series I like, but those are usually over 300 pages and the story I want must be at least 50 pages. I want to invest myselft into the story and to do so, I want more of a committment from the author whose world I am willing to enter.

I certainly agree, but if it was a first edition and limited, I would certainly think about it.

Thinking about how short a book can be made me think about how long a book can be. I know that some fiction categories can go on pretty long - books like Gone With The Wind, Shogun, Game of Thrones. But lately I read (reviewed a couple) books in the action, suspense genre, the kind of book that used to come in at around 300 or so pages are now close to, or above, 500.
Not to say I don't like big books but some of these books just seem to have a lot of "filler" that doesn't add to the story.

Yes. I've always thought that War and Peace and Moby Dick needed editing. Stephen King novels can run long, but they're well edited.

I have two shorter books around 50k words. My thrillers and sci-fi are mostly around 80k - one has hit 105k. My current WIP is at 110 and not done. My longest is 120k and could easily have been longer given I have a dozen chapters unused - set at the moment for a never in production book 2.

I did combine 3 volumes of my thriller series into one giant 280k volume - looks awful physically in paperback but is ok on Kindle and cheaper than three individual books

This topic came back at me because I am on another forum where people ask for recommendations for "short novels" basically looking for something under 200 pages. And the story "Flowers For Algernon" keeps cropping up as a recommendation. Now I love "Flowers for Algernon" and it is a bit longer than some short stories, but it's a short story, not even a novella.
Lately though I am seeing a lot more short stories offered on Kindle for around 99 cents.