Classics for Beginners discussion

This section includes chapters 17-30.

Joy wrote: "Just starting chapter 19. Amazed at how "in denial" Scarlett seems to be as Yankee troops get closer. Of course I know what's going to happen so maybe I'm not being fair."

Talk about denial!!!! Scarlett and the whole society in Atlanta. They know the troops are coming, the town is full of wounded in battle men yet they still have time for balls and welcome home parties!

Every time I read this book I think what an absolute prat Ashley is.

RitaSketter, I totally agree with you about Ashley!

Agreed! I don't know what Scarlett saw in him. She was too young and naive to see in him the perfect "man". It would never had worked with them. Her Irish blood would've been the death of that relationship.

I just finished chap.20, typhoid is here. :(

I just started this section. In chapter 17, Aunt Pitty had a party at her house and Rhett was present. He produced real Havana cigars for the gentlemen and everyone agreed it was indeed a Lucullan banquet. Does anyone know what a Lucullan banquet is?

Margaret Mitchell certainly was a racist. She was only concerned about how the way of life of the Southern landowners was being wrecked by the war and gave derogatory descriptions of the slaves. Read this description of some of the slaves Scarlet meets: She shook hands all around, her small white hand disappearing into their huge black paws and the four capered with delight at the meeting and with pride at displaying before their comrades what a pretty Young Miss they had.

These slaves were so dense, they didn't seem to notice their plight. Margaret Mitchell totally ignored the Emancipation Proclamation and its effects on the slave. Nobody in Georgia had unhappy slaves; instead they were so happy they capered when they saw their mistress. I am about to stop reading this garbage!

Emily I do agree with you about the slaves it was the only issue I had with this book they were always saying how the slaves couldn't take care of themselves so they were happy to be slaves because that meant that their masters would take care of them. I read North and South after I read Gone With the Wind and you get a very different perspective from the slaves point of view which I preferred because slaves were worked to death they had an extremely short life span no freedom no property no nothing

☯Emily has reviews on Booklikes wrote: "I just started this section. In chapter 17, Aunt Pitty had a party at her house and Rhett was present. He produced real Havana cigars for the gentlemen and everyone agreed it was indeed a Luculla..."

This is what I found: Lucullun: mid 19th century: from the name of Licinius Lucullus, Roman general of the 1st century bc, famous for giving lavish banquets.

Re your comments about racism - I agree, and it does get worse as the book progresses IMO. I'm not up to it yet, but I know there are passages to come about the KKK that made my blood boil in past reads.

I suppose I see the book as providing a window into how those born into white privilege at that time fooled themselves into seeing themselves as kindly benefactors and protectors that their slaves loved, which they then used as justification for removing the human rights of those people and using them to gain profit.

RitaSkeeter, well said.

From now on I'm using lucullan instead of lavish or luxurious! :) I love new words!

Racism is such a difficult theme to address.
I agree with RitaSkeeter. I don't think Mitchell was a racist. The book is written in the point of view of the rich slave owners of that time. Instead of making me angry, it makes me thankful of how far we've come. If it was written in the slaves point of view, it would be a completely different book.

Besides it's not always that bad in the book. I know it's nothing but that scene where Scarlett is with Rhett and they encounter the Tara slaves making ditches, Scarlett asks Rhett for money to give to the slaves so they can buy tobacco. I know it's nothing, but it was a good gesture from her and it meant a lot to the men, that Miss Scarlett was nice to them. Like I said, I know it's nothing, but it's things like this that balance the cruelty.

Like I said, imho racism is a difficult thing to address and whether we like it or not, we can't escape the fact that it happened, that there were unbelievably crueler and unfair acts done during that time, that are not portrayed in the book, but that must not keep us from enjoying reading this wonderful story.

The differing values in classic books can be quite confronting I think, for example, the inherent racism in GWTW. I started reading 'The picture of Dorian Gray' tonight for a buddy read and I am finding the misogyny in it very confronting.
When reading purely for enjoyment, I suppose the question is whether we gain more from the book than the anger or frustration it causes to read authorial viewpoints out of step with our own values.

Bloggeretterized wrote: "The book is written in the point of view of the rich slave owners of that time. Instead of making me angry, it makes me thankful of how far we've come. If it was written in the slaves point of view, it would be a completely different book.
"


Agreed - I enjoy reading books through viewpoints other than my own, whether I agree with them or not. She's trying to be realistic on how they would have seen things through the rich, priviledged land owner's perspective back then; if she tried to make it seem otherwise, the book would have been cheapened because it would have rang as false.

Joy wrote: "Just starting chapter 19. Amazed at how "in denial" Scarlett seems to be as Yankee troops get closer. Of course I know what's going to happen so maybe I'm not being fair."

It reminds me of some books I read last year about the Nazi period, where people wouldn't believe it was coming to their town despite all the signs, such as in NIGHT.

War can be such a sad thing.

The point I am trying to make is that the southern slave owners feared that their slaves would leave and many did escape behind the Union lines. Slave owners also feared a rebellion from angry slaves and passed numerous laws to restrict movement of the slaves. There is not an inkling of the true state of affairs in GWTW. If you want to get a more balanced picture of the conditions of the slaves BEFORE the Civil War, read Uncle Tom's Cabin.

The biases of Mitchell are clear and need to be recognized when reading the book.

☯Emily has reviews on Booklikes wrote: "The point I am trying to make is that the southern slave owners feared that their slaves would leave and many did escape behind the Union lines. Slave owners also feared a rebellion from angry sla..."

She does speak in the book of how dangerous many of the freed slaves had become when they were released and angry. There is much mention of changes in laws and political climate, and also how different slaves were reacting. I can see that happening knowing human nature. I'm sure she doesn't cover everything - and of course some of it may be inaccurate, but since it's a fiction book it's not bothering me. I found the different mindsets and the political climate interesting myself.

I do think it comes clearly across that Mitchell felt something special was lost when the South 'fell'.

Most of the slaves do leave Tara as well. Only Pork, Mammy, Dilcey and Prissy stay. I'm not disagreeing at all with the point being made about Mitchell's biases, but Mitchell does write of the slaves leaving and later, as Erin writes, of them being very angry.

@joy - I found that very interesting - thank-you.

Joy wrote: "I've read Uncle Tom's Cabin and more recently The Invention of Wings and Candle in the Darkness, both of which I think depict slavery more accurately alth..."

There is also Twelve Years a Slave.

I've just read the thread for part 2 where Scarlett's parenting of Wade was being discussed. I think in part 3 Scarlett is so invested in surviving and helping the rest of her family, including Wade, to survive that she doesn't have time to see to his emotional needs. There was a passage, I wish I had marked it, where she thought that tomorrow she would play with Wade but today she just had to get things done (heavily paraphrased as I can't recall exactly how it went). Life can be so busy, it is always good to have reminders to stop and slow down and do things like that today. I've always felt very sad for Wade.

On another note, I've always liked Will Benteen.

Just finished part 3. Yes, poor Wade, he didn't have the greatest mom in the world, but Scarlett had to sacrifice being mommy dearest to guarantee her survival and Wade's future. They would have died of starvation if Scarlett hadn't taken the lead of their situation. She didn't have time to be delicate and ladylike, she had valid reasons to be the strong and rude in appearance woman she became.
I still think that despite her flaws and mistakes, her transformation is remarkable. I can't say the same about Careen or Susele who kept complaining, whining and acting like southern belles after the war.
And now, everything will change once again, with that last visitor!

In Chapter 25, Scarlett has returned to Tara and she is sick, emotionally and physically. GWTW says, "What was past was past. Those who were dead were dead. The lazy luxury of the old days was gone, never to return. And, as Scarlett settled the heavy basket across her arm, she had settled her own mind and her own life.

There was no going back and she was going forward.

Throughout the South for fifty years there would be bitter-eyed women who looked backward, bearing poverty with bitter pride because they had those memories. But Scarlett was never to look back."

First, was the statement that she never looked back even accurate? But, if it were accurate, did Scarlett make the right choice?

At this point in the book, it looks like Scarlett is making the best decision. But what did Scarlett replace those memories with? Was she less bitter than her contemporaries? Did she lead a more optimist life? Was she happier than her bitter contemporaries?

I don't think she was happy at all. (view spoiler)[ If she were she wouldn't be drinking the way she was toward the end of the novel. I think she tricked herself into believing the superficial relationships she had were meaningful and that she was 'happy', but that following Bonnie's accident she realised those relationships didn't mean anything and mourned what she had lost with old Atlanta society. By then, it was too late. (hide spoiler)]

I'm not sure it is true she never looked back. Perhaps it is true on a conscious level, but I think a number of her decisions and behaviours relate back to her experiences when she was starving at Tara. For example, her desperation for money and to pursue it at all costs. If she hadn't been so affected by those experiences would she have been out there working her mills etc?

I think toward the end of the novel she does look back on the relationships she had lost and mourned them, including those with Wade and Ella.

On another note, Emily, I have very much enjoyed and appreciated your facilitation of discussion with this book. Thank-you.

Mitchell has some racist comments in the book for sure. She describes their face as a sad monkey :( Totally not a cool comment. She does have Scarlett say the n-word when she's mad at Prissy. Immediately after, Scarlett is secretly embarrassed to say it.

Overall, I think the lives of all the slaves in the book revolve around Ashley and Scarlett's family. At the beginning, Gerald buys Prissy because Mammy wants her daughter back with her. So I think it's safe to say that these two families treated the house slaves better than the majority of slave owners.

Also, Scarlett constantly threatens to "sell Prissy South." To sell a slave south is a constant threat she uses on Prissy. It shows that there's some bad area for slaves, but it isn't with Scarlett's peers. Scarlett is cruel to her and knows her mom would be incredibly ashamed at her treatment of Prissy. Even hitting the slaves were not a good idea for the women. (I'm not sure if Ellen would approve of Gerald hitting them, she wanted Gerald to be more strict with the field hands I think). The field hands very well could be mistreated by Mitchell's characters and it would be appropriate, according to the characters. The book often says being a field hand is the worst place a slave could be. And that house slaves were better off than in the field. (The whole bit of being cared for.... if they are considered incapable of taking care of themselves, it's obviously bad. But if they are being protected from the dangers that other slaved faced during this time period, simply because of their skin color, then I think they are better off with Scarlett and Ashley's family. Or the best is to be free and not at risk of being enslaved again. Being owned by a kind family and given food and some freedoms, it's not a bad life, it's safer than the brutality in say, 12 Years a Slave. These were brutal times for black people, so many worse places they can be. :( Also totally not cool. :(

Also, some house slaves would be forced to bear children if the wife couldn't or if they wanted more children to work. But none of that happens within these 2 families. The husbands and wives have uncommonly happy marriages. Mitchell is showing an ideal pre-war South society.

Since the novel is mainly told from Scarlett's POV, she couldn't care less about the proclamation or what Lincoln is doing up north in his political arena. Mitchell could have made Rhett tell her about it and goad her about Prissy and Mammy being able to leave her. That could be a good way for Mitchell to sneak it into the story without altering the POV of the novel.

In the movie, (Spoiler) comments that "we don't treat them that way. And he would have freed them if the war hadn't already. (It was later in the movie, so maybe the book will have this part too.

In real life, Ashley may not be a prat. He'd be a young university student. Possibly studying philosophy or the classics. The gentleman ideal .... long dead from our society.

I think Scarlett and Ashley's characters are personifications of social ideals or even political thought. Scarlett is the immigrant family struggling with being loyal to their roots and fitting into a society that doesn't seem to make sense, logically. She admits it's a lot of work and intelligence to fool a man into loving a stupid, helpless creature. Ashley is the long dead gentleman that we only read about in books. He's the classical love story poetic hero. If Shakespeare was known as a lover and not just a writer, he'd be played by Ashley. Ashley's totally not a realistic character.

Just as women like Scarlett have to dance around with impossible social expectations, Ashley has to as well. His polite, intelligent society doesn't understand him or Scarlett. And his society is based on the arts and happiness! And they don't understand him! He's their damn ideal!!!! In the old days, pre-Shakespeare, entertainment of the rich was spouting poetry amongst each other. Ashley can probably do that. He mastered the lost art of conversation. And can actually understand what's being said and be able to add even more sustenance to it. But his society only regurgitates the appropriate responses, they don't actually reflect on the meaning of their words or statements. I think that's why he tells Melly that long gone are the good days. He says this before the war. I think he's talking that the arts of the South died long before he was born.

Ashley is totally not sexy. He's melancholy and too weak for a good fight. One comment from Scarlett would crumple his ego and he'd not stand for a week. Scarlett's rude and selfish. But at least she's got the gonads to say what's on her mind.

There's so much to say about these characters!!! They are characters I love to hate. And I love them because I can strongly hate them. Because there is so much depth to them.

Wait .... I read about a spoiler about Ashley which might change everything if it's true. I haven't read that far in the book yet. I'm disgusted if it's true. How can it be justified? Would I have picked up the book if I knew about it before? Maybe not.