Classics for Beginners discussion

Here we will discuss the last section of the GWTW.

(view spoiler)[ Melly's death never fails to make me sob. (hide spoiler)]

I must be the only living human being to have never seen the movie. Accordingly, I did not know what to expect.

Until the end, I kept hoping for some sort of redemption from Scarlett. Instead, she just got worse and worse... and my level of empathy for her dropped dramatically towards the last chapters.

Somewhere in the middle of the book, I admired her, despite - or perhaps because of - the difficult choices she was making. Sure, she started as a spoiled brat - but she sure grew out of it. But that changed and, towards the end, I just had no sympathy, empathy - or, frankly, even interest in her.

Now, I just wish someone much wiser (and with a better memory) than me wrote a comparison of Ana (Karenina) and Scarlett. Are they both, ultimately, just selfish individuals messing up the lives of those around them and capable of self-serving rationalizations? At the very least, they are both terrible mothers... and isn't that the worst sin?

Make that two living human beings as I haven't seen the film either.

I'm not sure I agree with you completely regarding Scarlett. Whilst I agree that she never experienced 'redemption' as such, I believe she experienced a type of awakening at the end. She realised what she had lost with the 'old' Atlanta society not receiving her anymore and regretted that; she realised she loved Melly; and that she had never truly loved Ashley. She realised her dreams of him, and his lust for her, had taken a portion of their lives that impacted on their ability to find happiness with what was in front of them. I think these realisations were revelatory for Scarlett, who isn't blessed with insight or reflection.

I suppose the question is what next. Does Scarlett use those revelations for self-growth, or does she revert to what she knows?

Veljko wrote: "At the very least, they are both terrible mothers... and isn't that the worst sin."

That's a strong statement. Being a terrible mother is a worse sin than rape or murder? Or a worse sin than a man who is a terrible father?

I suppose I think of how old Scarlett was when she had Wade. While there are some young mums who do a terrific job with their children, there are others that can find it hard. Whilst biologically they are ready to have kids, emotionally they aren't necessarily (as Scarlett wasn't). Their brain development is also not finished, leaving them without some of the executive functioning that can assist in parenting. Following that Scarlett was preoccupied with trying to survive, and helping the others around her to survive which left her little time or energy for anything else.

There was a passage, I didn't mark it so can't recall what chapter, where following the marriage to Rhett and feeling secure economically, she tried to play with Wade and Ella but didn't know how to engage them. It was too late.

Scarlett neglected her children's emotional development, first through self-absorption and not understanding the needs of children, and secondly through being occupied with keeping them alive. Was she the world's greatest mum - no. Did she sin by being a poor mother? I don't think so.

RitaSkeeter wrote: "Make that two living human beings as I haven't seen the film either.

I'm not sure I agree with you completely regarding Scarlett. Whilst I agree that she never experienced 'redemption' as such, I..."

RitaSketter, I agree with you. I think one of the best parts of the book is when Scarlett thinks Oh my gosh if... happens I will be stuck with taking care of Ashley for the rest of my life!

Arlene wrote: "RitaSkeeter wrote: "Make that two living human beings as I haven't seen the film either."

LOL Arlene. Being stuck with Ashley forever is enough to make me shudder!

Joy wrote: "I don't think you can compare the brain development of 16-18yo's 150 years ago to the of today's teens without noting the differences. I read a book last year that cited a lot of studies showing ho..."

Joy, do you think the 16-18yo's of today's teens are more mature than the 16-18yo's 150 years ago?

Interesting discussion on the teenagers today compared to the teenagers 150 years ago. I believe the expectations were so different in the 1860s. I am told my great-great-great grandfather was all of 15 years old when he went off to fight in the Civil War. We can not imagine sending a 15 year old off to war today. Were teenagers more mature back then? I do not know. Scarlett was not mature enough at sixteen to get married and have a child.


I agree with RitaSkeeter, about Scarlett having an "awakening" by the end of the book. Has she finally matured? I hope so, by the end I really wanted her to be happy.

It is a fascinating topic. I've had a few trainings for work on brain development, though primarily focused on the impact trauma has on brain development. Very very interesting.

Your comment about how young some young men were when they fought in the war is also interesting Laurie. I guess it made me think a little of how in many places in the world where children still work from a very young age and don't experience an adolescence (or I guess even a childhood?) the way we do in the west.

I recently watched the movie only to join in on this discussion, because I didn't have time to read the book. I left the movie with a feeling of sorrow for Scarlett. I hope she was able to talk with Rhett and over time show him that she had indeed matured. I hope that she was able to show him that she had gotten over her "love affair" with Ashley. I liked her for the most part, but sometimes I had this sneaky little feeling that she had this terrible habit of using people up until there was nothing left. I hope I am wrong.

Was Scarlett mature? NO! I hope that what they were trying to convey in the end of the movie was that she had matured a little bit in the tragedy that had recently struck their little friend circle. That is the loss of her daughter and best female friend.

I've heard the expression that you don't know what you have till you've lost it. I hope maybe that in the loss of Rhett she realized what she had and went to him to calmly explain this, but as I've stated before, she wasn't fully mature even towards the end. I don't know.

I only know I hope I'm not like her in that way. Using people till there's nothing left, not being able to see the forest for the trees so to speak...or to be it better not being able to see what I have here in front of me. I hope I don't hurt people so casually as she did. I hope I'm a better Mother than Scarlett was (that is if I ever have children). I hope I'm a better all around friend than she was in many places.

But I also pray that I'm like Scarlett in other ways. I pray that I'm able to make the best of any situation and pull myself up and into a better physical place than where we're at now. I hope I'm able to have a love of something as much as Scarlett loved Tara. I hope I can see a difficult situation and know that I'll find a way out of it. I hope I'm a person that my family can count on (Scarlett only had this quality sometimes, and I pray to have it more. But still she did have it, and I hope to have it too.)

No Joy, you are not the only one still reading. I haven't yet started Part 5.

I, too, never saw the movie and after reading the first four sections of the book, have no desire to.

I read this book in high school - many years ago. I loved it then and I love it still.

Jewett wrote: "I read this book in high school - many years ago. I loved it then and I love it still."

I also loved the book but the first time was this year for reading it. I saw the movie since I was younger and always enjoyed it, but it does carry a melodrama the book avoids, which was common for movies made in that day and age.

Melly has always been my favourite character also.

Re: the love story - when it is marketed that way I think they are referring to Scarlett and Rhett? I don't really think of it as a love story myself though. I see the book as being about Scarlett and following her journey - part of which included Rhett.

GWTW is one of the greatest love stories ever written. It clearly reveals the wisdom of the Bible verse that says, "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

Joy wrote: "Exactly, I see the marketing as Scarlett and Rhett but I don't see their story as a great love story. I think that's a huge stretch.
I was wondering what others may have thought."

Yeah I never saw it as a great love story - more of a tragic one

Agreed - has been a great discussion :)

Joy wrote: "So I finally finished today. And I love Melanie even more. In my mind she is the true heroine.


I went to college in the South in the early 1070's. I did not fit in. I was told I was blunt. Southern girls at that time always seemed friendly. They had a smile on their face and welcomed you with warmth. However, rumors and gossip always swirled around campus. Where did these rumors come from? Those same nice and friendly girls! "The sweet to your face, talk behind your back" Southern girls had this technique down to a science. I learned never to trust a sweet girl with a warm, inviting smile.

Now why am I telling this? Melanie showed her true colors in Chapter 49. Melanie is being questioned by Scarlet about leaving her housewarming party. 'Suddenly words began to bubble out, swift hot words and there was inflexible hate in the low voice. "Can you forget what these people did to us? Can you forget darling Charlie dead and Ashley's health ruined and Twelve Oaks burned?...Oh, Scarlet, it was these same people who robbed us and tortured us and left us to starve that you invited to your party! The same people who have set the darkies up to lord over us, who are robbing us and keeping our men from voting! I can't forget. I won't forget. I won't let my Beau forget and I'll teach my grandchildren to hate these people--and my grandchildren's grandchildren if God lets me live that long!"'

It is this kind of attitude and hatred that existed in the South for several generations. It was perpetuated and endorsed by sweet, nice Southern women who acted friendly, but actually hated your guts because you were from the North or because your skin was a different color from theirs. What loving mother would teach her child to hate?

Melanie had just lived through a war. Her brother had been killed, her husband had been a POW, she - after a life of privilege - was now experiencing poverty. Many other family and friends had died. Leaving aside the question of the ethics of the lifestyle the southerners had prior to the war, can we really blame Melanie for being so bitter in the aftermath of the war?

Would I be angry and bitter if the life I have built was lost through war? You bet I would be. So I have empathy with Melanie. That does not mean I agree with slavery, it does not mean I agree with her sentiments. However, I can empathise that she is grieving for all she has lost and that her sentiments you have quoted above are coloured by that.

Joy wrote: "I guess i felt that was really out if character for Melanie. She was the one who wanted to take care of the graves of the Yankee soldiers, and then to act like that."

I'm not sorry that was in there - it paints her more realistically than just a good natured sweet person that is one-dimensional. ALL great people will have dark moments/reactions. This could have been something said in the heat of the moment that she didn't even follow through with had she lived for all we know. Overall I liked Melanie.

RitaSkeeter wrote: "Melanie had just lived through a war. Her brother had been killed, her husband had been a POW, she - after a life of privilege - was now experiencing poverty. Many other family and friends had died. Leaving aside the question of the ethics of the lifestyle the southerners had prior to the war, can we really blame Melanie for being so bitter in the aftermath of the war? "


Exactly. Most would be - actually she seems to be handling it better than most, at the least the bitterness didn't seep in too badly, at least that we saw. They had no reason at that time to embrace the northerners or the changing ways. The war was terrible for all involved, but the aftereffect was as well during their time.

One of my all-time favourite books! I just adore the whole thing, and recommend this book to everyone I talk to. :)

Margaret wrote: "One of my all-time favourite books! I just adore the whole thing, and recommend this book to everyone I talk to. :)"

Same =)