Jane Austen discussion

ends with Fanny still in Portsmouth; Henry has left Portsmouth; Fanny receives letters from Edmund about Mary and from Lady Bertram about Tom's serious illness

I find this section quite poignant with Fanny on emotional tenterhooks, waiting for word and unable to act to secure her own happiness or those of her loved ones. No wonder she’s wavering!

But then again, sometimes I want to shake her for not turning to and improving the way that household is run. I doubt her mother would resent her for taking things in hand.

Two sides of her passivity.

Portsmouth is a breath of fresh air after chilly Mansfield Park, I find the noisy chaos of the Price family preferable to the icy atmosphere at Mansfield. And Susan makes a nice contrast to fanny, so active where Fanny is passive. Henry shows himself at his best as well, he is not put off by the sight of Fanny's humble home and chaotic family life. It is my favourite part of the book.

I don't know, I think her mother would resent Fanny trying to help. Mrs. Price constantly complains about all of her efforts being in vain because of bad servants, when really she's just lazy and talks big. Her daughter being able to turn the house around might seem like an insult to her own abilities.

This is where Henry really shows his character. He courts Fanny, asks her advice and says he will take her counsel and then later she hears from Mary that he didn't do what he said he would do... but followed Mary's request to take him to a party. Mary then tells Fanny she has no notion of how useful a man like Henry is in town... and in society.

Yeah... right. This was his downfall... placing himself right back into the frying pan... within reach of Maria. He might have had Fanny if he had held on a bit longer and resisted temptation. Or at least worn Fanny down a bit more. But knowing him, he probably would have fallen under Maria's influence at another time. It would be worse if he and Fanny had been engaged or worse, even married. Gawd!!! What a jerk.

I love this section of the book - it's the only time I can think of where Austen writes at length of characters and settings outside of the usual class of gentility.

Louise wrote: "Portsmouth is a breath of fresh air after chilly Mansfield Park, I find the noisy chaos of the Price family preferable to the icy atmosphere at Mansfield. And Susan makes a nice contrast to fanny, ..."

My favourite part too. And Henry wins me over in this section, he acts so heroically and gentlemanly to Fanny that I begin to believe he may be able to change for the better and deserve her after all – if only he didn't have to go and spoil it !!!

I think you're right. Austen often touches a little on the lower class in her other novels, but her main characters don't spend a lot of time there.

I'm on the fence about Henry. I like him sometimes, but honestly, it's not like he would be able to avoid Maria for the rest of his life. Like J.W. said, he would be likely to fall into the common trap of his character at some point, and if he and Fanny were married, it would be even worse. I think a longer period of time is needed to overcome his attractions and flirtations with other women--not just months but years.

Nina wrote: "Louise wrote: "Portsmouth is a breath of fresh air after chilly Mansfield Park, I find the noisy chaos of the Price family preferable to the icy atmosphere at Mansfield. And Susan makes a nice cont..."

I've always regretted that he didn't get Fanny, I think Fanny being married to Henry would have done both of them good.

I couldn't disagree more, Henry would never have been faithful to Fanny and she didn't have the constitution to deal with that, and why should she?

Louise Sparrow wrote: "I couldn't disagree more, Henry would never have been faithful to Fanny and she didn't have the constitution to deal with that, and why should she?"

He might have been faithful to her if he continued to find her fascinating. At any rate, it would have been more amusing. As it is, i can see fanny and Edmund getting even stuffier and more pompous as they age, it's not an attractive prospect.

I think Henry is easily distracted.

I can't see him sustaining feeling for Fanny for the long haul--through the years in a marriage.

Henry was after the chase. When Fanny wouldn't succumb to his charms... he was determined to win her over. That was his aim when Mary cautioned him to not hurt her. He had already brushed Maria and Julia aside as they were no longer a challenge.

When Mary said she needed him to escort her about town... it was Maria's cold reception of him that set him off again to win back her attention. He was a self-absorbed man-whore. He had no feelings for anyone other than wanting every woman to be in love with him. He was after the chase.

I'm glad Fanny was spared the heart ache from his behavior. I don't know if he was capable of settling down. Even Mary suggested that, after he and Fanny married, he could have an ongoing flirtation with Maria and no one would think anything about it. I beg to differ, Fanny would think something about it.

I do not see them being happy one bit. She would never be able to respect him and without respect... it would be a sad marriage. Between Fanny and Henry, we have two very opposing opinions... and core values. They are from two different planets and speak in completely different languages.

I agree with Andrea... Henry is not made for the long haul.

Louise, he only found Fanny interesting when he couldn't get her to fawn over him. As far as Fanny and Edmund... they were going for comfort of the spirit and soul. What you might see as stuffy, they see as comfort, security, safety and dependability... as well as that trust factor that is so important to them.

I agree Marriage isn't only sex appeal It is built companionship based on similar philosophy of life (Where we are heading)sex appeal is more commen and overpowering easier to find and lose a safe marriage is work maybe that is why there are so many divorces today in the generation of immediate gratification (I call it the microwave syndrome) most of JA heros are headed for lasting companionship (even Darcy &Elizabeth)That is why we love them and fantasize their latter life

Microwave syndrome. Hmm. I think you're on to something Mrs.

Darcy and Elizabeth have both(sex appeal and mind attraction) as do Jane and Bingly so they are the most romantic so maybe that is the reason they are our favourites all the others aremt as passionate

J. W. wrote: "Henry was after the chase. When Fanny wouldn't succumb to his charms... he was determined to win her over. That was his aim when Mary cautioned him to not hurt her. He had already brushed Maria and..."

I agree that Fanny and Edmund would have been comfortable and secure in each other, and therefore happy. I only wonder how Fanny copes with childbirth, being quite delicate physically.

J. W. wrote: "Henry was after the chase. When Fanny wouldn't succumb to his charms... he was determined to win her over. That was his aim when Mary cautioned him to not hurt her. He had already brushed Maria and..."

Wonderful summary J.W.

Thanks Louise...

Nina... you have posed a good question regarding the health of Fanny. I read somewhere that her symptoms suggested she had an iron deficiency. If that were the case... they were wondering if she would even conceive as low iron levels can affect fertility. Even though her mother had such a superfluity of children... didn't mean she would.

J. W. wrote: "Thanks Louise...

Nina... you have posed a good question regarding the health of Fanny. I read somewhere that her symptoms suggested she had an iron deficiency. If that were the case... they were w..."

I'd like to think that Fanny's poor health is partly based in her emotions, and that her health improved when she was happily married.
I always interpreted the last paragraphs of the novel as indicating that Fanny was pregnant, or had young children:
'they had been married long enough to being to want an increase of income, and feel their distance from the paternal abode an inconvenience.'
I wonder if anyone else read it that way?

Nina wrote: "J. W. wrote: "Thanks Louise...

Nina... you have posed a good question regarding the health of Fanny. I read somewhere that her symptoms suggested she had an iron deficiency. If that were the case...."

Absolutely, Nina. For me the last paragraph means -without doubt- that Fanny got pregnant, hence the want of increased income.

Louise wrote: "Louise Sparrow wrote: "I couldn't disagree more, Henry would never have been faithful to Fanny and she didn't have the constitution to deal with that, and why should she?"

He might have been faith..."

Louise, in a way, I agree with you that the Fanny/Henry - Mary/Edmund pairings would have been much more dynamic considering the difference in their characters. That was also the case bw Elizabeth and Darcy. However, while D&E clearly were open to change/to be changed, neither Fanny/Edmund nor Mary/Henry displayed the wish or ability to change. (Well, Henry did, but it was no real change & he did fail in the end - for which I am really sorry, for he had so much potential.)
They are representing the clashing qualities in the extreme for the different pairings to be realistically possible. Edmund/Fanny are immovable (I would even call them rigid), while Mary and Henry are much too restless. What Mary says of herself, applies to Henry as well: “Nothing ever fatigues me but doing what I do not like.” / “I must move,” said she; “resting fatigues me.”

Building on what Melindam said, I think a crucial difference (in Jane Austen’s mind) between the different personalities—of Elizabeth/Darcy on the one hand and Mary/Edmund and Fanny/Henry on the other—is that Elizabeth and Darcy were, or became equals ethically, in terms of their ways of interacting with other people. Mary and Henry had what Austen would have regarded as antisocial or self-centered values, and thus would never have been fitting couples. These days we focus more on the chemistry between two individuals as the central criterion for the success of a marriage; but for her, marriage also involved taking on a particular role in society (especially for a clergyman), and the marriage needed to succeed in the public sphere as well as the private.

Mrs wrote: "I agree Marriage isn't only sex appeal It is built companionship based on similar philosophy of life (Where we are heading)sex appeal is more commen and overpowering easier to find and lose a safe ..."

Personally I love them if I find them interesting. In mansfield park, mary and Henry are much more interesting to me than any of the other characters, therefore. I want them to get what they want. I could fantasise about Mary/Edmund or Henry/fanny - but as for fantasising about Edmund/fanny - oh dear no! There are more divorces noawadays because divorce is much easier to come by than it used to be. no way of knowing how many marriages would have ended in divorce in the past had it been as easy to obtain as it is now.

I am of a gentle nature. To pair me with an outgoing social climbing, society desiring, large crowd, town or ton, outmaneuvering ladies squabbling for his attention man, would simply undo me. I could not bear it. It would be the worst torture for me. I tend to relate to Fanny in that what Henry had to offer would be abhorrent to me. His wants and desires were polar opposite to her wants and desires. For a brief moment, he leaned toward her pastoral peace and calm. However, it was the draw of the ton and Mary's desire for him to attend a party that was his undoing. It did show his true nature. The ton won out. What he could have had, he threw away.

J. W. wrote: "I am of a gentle nature. To pair me with an outgoing social climbing, society desiring, large crowd, town or ton, outmaneuvering ladies squabbling for his attention man, would simply undo me. I cou..."

I heartily agree, J.W.!

I think similar societal desires are still considered an important part of a marriage, though. We just don't think of it as much and say, "Oh, they weren't compatible." But one of the reasons they may not have been compatible is because of whether one individual would rather go out or stay at home on a Saturday night. And pastors' spouses are still usually expected to take central roles in the programs at their churches, so it makes sense that Edmund would want someone who had compatible ideas and would represent him well in the community. I think Edmund would have been happy either way, just in different ways. But I think Fanny's incompatibilities with Henry would have been too great over time. We hope that Henry might reform, but his reform might take longer than he was ever willing to commit. I think this is less an issue of whether it's possible and more an issue of whether or not he realizes he hasn't quite changed yet and needs to do more work.

I agree Hannah. I like what you said about the responsibilities of the clergy and their spouses. I cannot see Mary helping her pastor husband. I think in this... she was very realistic. She knew she didn't, couldn't, wouldn't do that. She was true to herself, knew herself and was honest in her refusal to subject herself to that lifestyle.

Edmund, on the other hand, only saw her beauty and vitality and wanted her. He refused to see her as she truly was and refused to hear what she was trying to tell him. She did not want to be a pastor's wife. Period. If... and it was a big if... she swayed at all... his life would have to change drastically. He would then be molded in her image of a pastor... not his.

J.W.

You're quite right that Mary knew herself--knew she wouldn't be a pastor's wife, even if that pastor had been Edmund.

While I can't quite get a handle on what Edmund's appeal to Mary was--she liked him enough to be distressed at his choice of profession.

If Mary hadn't a serious interest in Edmund, she wouldn't have cared that he was going to joined the clergy and simply looked on him as a source of amusement/entertainment while she's visiting Mansfield as he danced attendance on her.

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "J.W.

You're quite right that Mary knew herself--knew she wouldn't be a pastor's wife, even if that pastor had been Edmund.

While I can't quite get a handle on what Edmund's appeal to Mary was--sh..."

I think Edmund's appeal to Mary was that he was the first genuinely good man she had met. She had moved in fashionable circles where men were more like her brother and her Admiral uncle in their behaviour to women. When she's discussing the marriages of her friends to Fanny she doesn't have a good word to say about any of her friends' marriages or husbands. I think she recognised that Edmund was different.

I agree. Edmund is good husband material. He would be faithful and attentive, he's not a drunkard or a gamester. And he actually has a nice subtle, dry wit. According to Mary, he's quite good-looking, too.

I agree with Nina about the attraction of an ethical man for Mary. But we tend to forget, when reading about Edmund, that he was extraordinarily handsome. All the Bertrams were supposed to be very good-looking (unlike many of JA’s heroes). So Mary may also have seen this attractive man from a wealthy family and thought he should be rescued from obscurity and brought into society more. And we shouldn’t underestimate the appeal of a family with land and heritage and all the power that goes along with it, for a woman who was brought up rootless.

Abigail, your mention of Mary being brought up rootless reminds me -- she really had a lot in common with Fanny Price, as far as her childhood goes! Fanny wasn't an orphan like Mary, but she might as well have been. Fanny had Mrs. Norris and Mary lived with the Admiral, an overbearing, insensitive fellow. They both had a brother they loved dearly. Their personalities were so different, however, that their experiences shaped them differently.

What an interesting idea, Lona. I wonder if Jane Austen thought of them that way—probably, she being the most subtle of geniuses!

Wow! Great take on this thread. Man, you guys really brought up good thoughts on Mary/Fanny connection and Mary/Edmund. Great points that I had not considered. I love this site.

Abigail wrote: "I agree with Nina about the attraction of an ethical man for Mary. But we tend to forget, when reading about Edmund, that he was extraordinarily handsome. All the Bertrams were supposed to be very ..."

Probably if Edmund had married Mary he would have ended up a bishop, she would have helped him rise through the ranks, charming everyone in sight. With Fanny, he no doubt will remain a country clergyman.

J. W. wrote: "I am of a gentle nature. To pair me with an outgoing social climbing, society desiring, large crowd, town or ton, outmaneuvering ladies squabbling for his attention man, would simply undo me. I cou..."

I would like to think that Fanny could actually enjoy marriage to Henry if things had turned out differently. That she might become a bit less passive. I agree with what Robert Rodi says of her in Bitch in a Bonnet: "It is more than a little maddening that everything Fanny gains (and over the course of the novel she gains a lot) is obtained by withholding, withdrawal, refusal. She embodies negation. Her default setting is Off." I'd like to think that Henry might turn her On perhaps.

Oh, I was going to mention during this section how much I appreciated David Shapard's remarks about the structure of Mansfield Park. I don't have his book with me (its a thumping big book, the annotated Mansfield Park). During the Portsmouth section, the big action scenes take place off stage, which is kind of unusual for a novel and it could weaken or dilute the action. But we are prepared for the action by the previous flirtation/sexual tension scenes during the amateur theatricals and the day at Sotherton. The Sotherton escapade in particular foreshadows what is to come.

Louise wrote: "J. W. wrote: "I am of a gentle nature. To pair me with an outgoing social climbing, society desiring, large crowd, town or ton, outmaneuvering ladies squabbling for his attention man, would simply ..."

I think Fanny would only have been happy with Henry if his transformation into Mr Nice Guy had been genuine. But his affair with Maria shows he hadn't really changed; even if he hadn't gone off with Maria, Mary's comment about him having a standing flirtation with her was very likely, and Fanny couldn't have been happy with an unfaithful husband.

I see what Rodi means about 'withholding, withdrawal, refusal', being negative actions, but I would see them as paradoxically being positive in Fanny's case. She withholds and withdraws and refuses only where she cannot be true to herself and her belief in what is right and good.
I don't think she loses anything at the end of the novel, I think she gains everything that matters most to her - the status of a valued daughter to the Bertrams, marriage to the man she loves, a secure home where she is mistress and not the underdog, and her own children.
What matters most to Fanny is family relationships. All her griefs are due to being unloved and unwanted. By the end of the novel she has become a beloved wife, mother, daughter and sister.

I actually like the fact that most of the action takes place offstage while Fanny is in Portsmouth. It highlights her powerlessness and—to the extent that the reader sympathizes with her—builds emotional tension. When the stakes are so high, she’s forced to be a spectator to her own life.

It’s also interesting that when she returns to Mansfield she regains a measure of agency. Her service is more recognized and rewarded; her virtuous example is appreciated at last.

Louise wrote: "Abigail wrote: "I agree with Nina about the attraction of an ethical man for Mary. But we tend to forget, when reading about Edmund, that he was extraordinarily handsome. All the Bertrams were supp..."

This is a very interesting & valid thought, Louise! :) While I do not question of Fanny's & Edmund's compatibility, I wonder what their social life outside the family circle would be. With Fanny's total shyness and unwillingness to go out of her way to interact with people she is not comfortable with ... And what about housekeeping? It is an active role she needs to play there and while she can probably do it, we are only offered views of her in the novel as totally and utterly passive or even negative, so I have great difficulties in imagining her "going out into the world", be active and interact with people even as a county clergyman's wife.
Alas, this idea on the other hand totally proves that she would not ever grow compatible with Henry. I am sad about it, but there is is. *SIGH*

Louise wrote: "Abigail wrote: "I agree with Nina about the attraction of an ethical man for Mary. But we tend to forget, when reading about Edmund, that he was extraordinarily handsome. All the Bertrams were supp..."

We are not told much about Edmund's "ambitions" or plans in the novel, besides his setting out to be ordained and to marry Mary (and later Fanny). He seems to be content with his lot of getting the Mansfield (Thornton Lacey) living. Also, I don't have a clear picture of him as a social person.
What do you think?
He is certainly not the recluse Fanny is, but on the other hand he does not relish the superficial London society he meets while in town courting Mary.
He does not go out of his way to go into society as Tom does, but he seems perfectly able to do the honours of a host/house owner (when Sir Thomas & Tom are in Antigua) & enjoying the company of others outside the family.
I agree with Hannah, that Edmund would have been happy with Mary as well, in a different way.
If he and Mary would have met halfway, they could have made something of their relationship and possibly he would have advanced in the church hierarchy. But actually both of them expected the other to change, while unwilling to make any allowances for the need of the other. Pity, but there it is.

You guys have made many great points. We see the difference of opinion between Mary and Edmund when they are talking about the clergy during their tour of Rushworth's home. When discussing the office of the clergy, Mary describes it as 'nothing' while Edmund declared it as 'everything.'

Mary continued to declare she would not marry a clergyman. She knew what she wanted and what she could tolerate. Edmund would have to change. To her, there had to be a way to circumvent his declaration to take orders. She came at him from every direction in order to change his mind. He was as unwilling to change as she was. They may have leaned toward each other, but neither was giving ground.

Fanny has been raised [by the Bertrams and Mrs. Norris especially] to be of use but not seen. She operates as a servant to Lady Bertram , is commanded about by Mrs. Norris and who, in no uncertain terms, tells her to know her place . When Fanny is suddenly presented with notice from Mary and Henry, she doesn't know how to handle it.

Fanny's desire to be of use would be very helpful to Edmund. Mary would be too busy trying to elevate his position to be concerned with the needs of the parish. I cannot see her aiding the sick and needy. I'm sorry, but she would send a servant or hire someone to do the duties. I believe she would insist that a curator be hired to do the duties.

Fanny is so naturally passive and timid and retiring I can't imagine her being much use as a clergy wife - Mary shows far more interest in other people ,and more compassion for them. I think she would be an asset to Edmund, all her warmth and energy and sympathy would make her beloved in the parish I think. fanny would just cower behind Edmund all the time.

I like to think Edmund would be a very active clergyman, working with the leaders in his community to do useful things, like road improvements. And altho he's in a small community, he'd have his intellectual interests -- he's be a member of the Antiquities Society and go up to London occasionally. Maybe Fanny would be comfortable running a little classroom in the village and teaching Sunday school. I think she'd gain confidence once she's away from Aunt Norris's constant put-downs. BTW in my alternate version, A Contrary Wind: a variation on Mansfield Park, Edmund DOES marry Mary!

Thanks Lona, that looks like a very interesting book, I look forward to reading it.

There's also a book And Who Can Be In Doubt Of What Followed?:, which expands on the endings of Austen's novels. The short story "Henry and Maria" traces Henry Crawford's movements in the last few weeks of the novel, that is, when he goes to London and gets tangled up with Maria.

Oooh, thanks Lona for that link. I didn't know of that book. Grabbed it!!

Scriptures tells us that with a temptation there is also an escape.
First it was Henry's decision to go to a party with Mary instead of taking care of the business he had told Fanny was so important to his holdings and renters.

Then, later, I wonder if, when Henry was looking at Maria, he even thought about what his actions would do to Fanny? Did he for a second wonder if perhaps he should turn and walk away? He had to willingly decide that ... no, he was walking through that door. Wow! Those decisions changed everything.

I am anxious to see how Adams handled this situation. I love a good epilogue to a story and this book sounds like it is full of epilogues to all my favorite stories. Thanks again, Lona.

I can’t remember whether I’ve mentioned in this discussion an excellent book for all those who prefer the idea of Fanny-Henry and Edmund-Mary pairings: Sherwood Smith’s fragment Henry and Fanny: An Alternate Ending to Mansfield Park. It picks up abruptly at Portsmouth, more or less, so best read right after reading MP. Makes quite a convincing case (though I am not of the camp that holds the actual pairings to be disappointing).