Black Coffee discussion

Maya and Rachel will be discussing The Hate U Give by Angie Thomas.

Everyone please feel free to join

Question 1

In the beginning, do you think the dad was selfish for wanting to stay in the projects?

I could understand it, he didn't want to be one of those people who got money and then turned their back on the community.

I didn't grow up in the "hood" but my mom did and she would always go back to visit and help out.

He probably didn't wanna be considered a "sell-out". Probably felt like he would become one of those people who do more talking than acting. I can understand his viewpoint, sometimes it's harder to fight (tooth & nail) when you aren't physically on the battlefield. But through it all, I believe family comes first.

That's his community. Doesn't it depend, in part, on how bad things are whether the right answer is to get the hell out or to stay and be part of the solution? I read this 6-8 weeks ago, so might not be remembering accurately. What LuLu said.

I really really wanted to love this book, and for the most part I did. The way Starr is torn between worlds, between friends, between ideas, between ideologies, all of this was so sharply drawn it was really gripping. And the writing - oh my, wasn't that just out of this world! I wasn't surprized to read that Angie Thomas was a rapper and a poet before writing this.

But something kept me from getting completely drawn in, I think it was this: most of the characters were either completely good or completely bad. For example, I didn't think Big Mav was selfish, I think it was noble of him to stay in the hood and try to help, and when they moved out, he put his children ahead of his values, well that was noble too.

Similarly Khalil was so clean, selling drugs for noble reasons. The story touches only briefly on what I think is key: who cares if he was selling drugs or selling draino, his death was WRONG and that cop was at fault.

I could have used a little more grey, I think.

I was glad the family allowed Starr to make a statement after Khalil was murdered. I can only imagine how hard of a decision that was. I know it took them awhile, but they finally decided to let her speak.

Question 2

Would you have let your child speak up or would you have kept quiet for his or her safety?

I didn't think the father was selfish. I agree with Erin that he wanted to remain a part of the community, even though he thought it wasn't safe, even though he didn't think the schools were good enough for his child.

I think this book really puts white people, their community, school systems, ideology, books - on a pedestal. Often times, the other black characters, besides Starr and her mother, behaved in ways that made one another to feel ashamed, particularly the other black mothers. Starr's mother seemed to be the only one able to care for her child and not embarrass her family. Even the attorney embarasses Starr when she stands on top of a car - Starr sees this as embarrassing and questions the attorney's professionalism.

In The Hate U Give, the black characters are far more at fault for their own condition - more than the police brutality, history, politics, or the good intentions of respectable blacks, like Starr's family. For instance, Khalil sells drugs because his mother is a drug addict. Because Khalil's mother is a drug addict, she didn't teach him how to interact with the police. Because he doesn't know how to interact with the police - he is killed by the police. I felt that this is respectability politics 101. The story relies heavily on - if only black people would behave better...

Most of us know that there many instances where black people have had their hands up, have followed the instructions of the police, and have still been killed. But still we see here - it is partially Khalil's fault that he was killed by the police officer. As they are in the car, Starr follows the rules, Khalil doesn't, and because of this, he is killed.

In this narrative of police brutality it would seem that the police officer is just doing his job. We are told he is an upstanding citizen. We are told he is a family man. We are told he thinks he hears Starr say something threatening to Khalil just before he kills Khalil. Khalil is not the only friend Starr has lost in this story. When she is younger, she loses a best friend. A little girl who is killed in a drive by, killed presumably by black gang members. The upstanding white police officer kills a drug dealer, a gang member, a person destroying the community that makes it unsafe for Starr and her family, and makes her school a place she must flee. The fault here lies with the black characters, destroying their own community.

Starr and her family appear to be the exception. They are the good upstanding family. They don't fight, or behave in ways that embarrass one another. They teach their daughter to fear the police and cower in their presence. They teach her not to speak up to injustice - especially if it appears to be at the hands of a white man. But the father, is not squeaky clean... He is a former gang member who once served time in prison. During that time, Starr's mother was a single parent, and it was Starr's uncle, a police officer, who stepped in to help out. Starr's father was once a person destroying her community, and also created dysfunction within the household. Though he has improved his live, and is intent on making a positive change within the community - his best intentions are not enough, and he still must work to earn the trust of his daughter.

Starr devalues her community, the uniqueness of her blended family and says the only way she feels "normal" is when she goes to the white school and is fetishized by her white friends. Her mother notes that many of the things she likes are because Hailey liked it first, or has Hailey's approval. When Hailey unfriends her based on her racially charged posts on Tumblr, Starr realizes how tenuous her friendship is and begins to question herself. Then, she behaves violently and attacks Hailey.

Question 2:

As a mother.... I teach my children to speak up in general. I teach them to do what's right and to stand up for what's right. I realize this is a difficult thing to teach black children, as our society is often harsh on black people who speak truth to power. But then I think of the black people in history who stood up to slavery and for civil rights. Where would we be without them? We honor and revere people, and then teach our children to shrink themselves and do the opposite. My heart would ache if any harm would come to them. I wouldn't wish it on my children or anyone children, but I think we owe it to our community to speak up for what is right, and to teach our children to do what's right.

I agree - it was excellent that the family allowed Starr to speak, but also that they allowed it to be Starr's decision. They guided her, they supported her, but it was her decision - that's so crucial in both a good book and a good person.

But as we saw in Charlottesville (and everywhere else) how scary is it to let your children fly free into danger. I absolutely broke down when Heather Hevey's mother said "she died for what she believed in." So often we hear that (or say it) for so much less reason.

Maya wrote: "Question 1

In the beginning, do you think the dad was selfish for wanting to stay in the projects?"

1) I didn't think the dad was selfish, I thought he was being noble. He loved his community and rode it out for as long as he could. 2) I would not want my child to speak up.

I would be terrified if my child had the desire to stand up and speak out against injustice....absolutely terrified because of the tragic, horrifying examples we've seen in the past. But we know there can be no change without action.

I am terrified anyway. It doesn't matter if they speak up or don't. Racism is not a result of bad behavior or too much bravery on the part of the targeted group. We have been policing ourselves for centuries and the result is the same. We need to stop telling these kids they'll be safe if they just try to be less black. They are in for a rude awakening when they find out the best thing to do is expose it. Acting like you don't hear racist comments, letting a police officer do what he wants to you without complaint, suffering in silence in a job that pays you less than your coworkers while requiring more work (... twice as hard for half as much)....we have to SPEAK UP! What's the alternative?

I think the kids know they aren't safe, but a lot of them are experiencing it from a distance. Reality is different when you physically live it vs. watching it on TV.

We've been conditioned to fear for many generations, it's gonna take a lot to change that. A LOT.

Lulu - Hear Hear!

A new question: how does everyone feel about Starr with Chris, Starr staying with Chris, and her family's reaction to it?

Maya wrote: "Question 1

In the beginning, do you think the dad was selfish for wanting to stay in the projects?"

i can understand wanting to stay but i know my parents made the decision to move away from the city after a boy we knew shot somebody over his tennis shoes. i was friends with the shooter's lil brother. they wanted to do it before my sister went to jr high. they did it. they sacrificed since they had to get up at like 3 or 4 am to commute back into the city. for about 3 years my sister and i DID not appreciate being in this lil white rural community. but now we do. Southeast DC is a kinda rough area.

it would have been VERY difficult for our parents to keep us safe in that area. so yeah i think big mav was being selfish or too optimistic.

Maya wrote: "I was glad the family allowed Starr to make a statement after Khalil was murdered. I can only imagine how hard of a decision that was. I know it took them awhile, but they finally decided to let he..."

i didn't get the safety issue. i mean the black community would not be against her only the white racists folk. now her privacy would be like GONE but i didn't get why they were so concerned for her safety. i thought they could protect Starr from angry white folk pretty easily.

Miss Fabularian wrote: "It doesn't matter if they speak up or don't. Racism is not a result of bad behavior or too much bravery on the part of the targeted group. We have been policing ourselves for centuries and the result is the same. We need to stop telling these kids they'll be safe if they just try to be less black. They are in for a rude awakening when they find out the best thing to do is expose it."

YES!!!

Rachel wrote: "Lulu - Hear Hear!

A new question: how does everyone feel about Starr with Chris, Starr staying with Chris, and her family's reaction to it?"

i understand it since i went to a High school with mostly white kids. kids crush on those that they are aound. she was around a bunch of white boys. it makes sense she'd fall for one. plus even after the shooting she still loved him. that doesn't just turn off. she did notice their difference MORE than before but puppy love doesn't magically go away.

in my grade there was like only one black boy in the majority of my classes. just like in the book the white kids wanted us to go out. i did it for about a week in middle school just so they'd leave me alone. but throughout our middle school and high school years folks always thought we should be a couple, esp since we remained friends.

when i used to dream of marriage and dating boys, i did think about my family's reaction if i ever brought home a boy/man who was a different race. i came to the conclusion they would prefer a black man but would absolutely NOT like or be comfortable with a white man/boy. so i usedto be like i'd date any race except white, even half white would be ok. my sister was determined she was going to marry a white man even though she dated both white and black boys. she married a darkskin black man. i actually never really dated or fell in love with anybody (ever) so i think now my family wouldn't care what color he is. they would just be glad (amazed) i was with somebody.

it doesn't bother me to see a black woman with a white man.it is so rare that i am always like good for you two. it still kinda bothers me to see a black man date a white woman though since i know sooo many single black woman and the black men i see with white woman are the job wielding family treat your lady right kind of men. so i still have an issue with that.


i also still have an issue with white folks adopting black kids. i am kinda ok with them being their foster parents but it bothers me. i know a couple of great families who do just that. they foster or have adopted black kids. they buy books, watch tv/film, take them to museums and stuff about black folks BUT these very nice families are white. i mean their culture is very white. they don't get certain things. like hair or ashy skin. they learn. they ask. but it is really just not the same. they don't have very many black friends. so the kids don't hang out with black folks just to hang. so that bothers me. i blame black folks though. the ones who have as much money as these white families and go to the same churches and yet they do not foster or adopt.

i guess like my mom i always wanted to do that. my dad didn't let my mom do it. and granted we had many lean years where food and housing were not guaranteed so i can see why he said no. also he was protecting his girls (my mom wasn't interested in fostering lil kids.) i am living like that now- paycheck to paycheck, just making it- so i wouldn't foster at this time. also with foster kids they have issues so you would need to be able to take off work and afford counseling. i know the state gives you money but they'd have to give me a lot cuz i wouldn't be able to afford it otherwise. i do think about doing it when i get my finances stable.

Rachel wrote: "Lulu - Hear Hear!

A new question: how does everyone feel about Starr with Chris, Starr staying with Chris, and her family's reaction to it?"

I didn't see a problem with Starr being with Chris before or after the incident. If I remember correctly the father had a problem but it was not clear if he was serious or just joking. I think he just had a problem with her dating period.

Great discussion everyone!

Question 3

Do you think Uncle Carlos felt caught in the middle because he was a cop as well as family member? He seemed like he wanted to defend the cop's motives in the beginning


Question 4

What did you think about Starr's friends? One I believe was japanese and the other was white. The white friend made a joke about chicken while they were playing basketball and said Kalihl was a drug dealer. The white friend seemed to jump to conclusions about a lot of things. It was beginning to feel unrealistic that she had non white friends. I feel like some kids do not know much about racism even though it should be a discussion in all households

Question 5

I think Mav was a good samaritan for hiding Davante. I would have been scared. Would you have helped or turn your back on the situation?

Wow - so many questions and I'm kindof a slow thinker.

Chris and Starr: my own thoughts on this are more around the character of Chris being "too good". Who wouldn't warm up to him? He always said and did the exact right thing (oh yeah, like so many 17-year-old boys!!) to win Starr back when she was mad and distant, to win over her father who was a strong fighter for rights, to chill with the ex-drug-gang-black-completely different world guy. A little unbelievable maybe?

Uncle Carlos - I would have loved to have known more about what was going on in his head. I think we've all been caught in situations where we stand against the few bad apples in a group we belong to, but that's a hard place to be, especially when the circumstances are so hot and so tragic.

A new question: how does everyone feel about Starr with Chris, Starr staying with Chris, and her family's reaction to it?

----I didn't have a problem with this, it seems as if they genuinely enjoyed each other and cared about each other. I think the family could see that Chris really liked Starr and once her dad gave Chris a chance, he saw it too.

Question 3

Do you think Uncle Carlos felt caught in the middle because he was a cop as well as family member? He seemed like he wanted to defend the cop's motives in the beginning.

---- I've always thought of the police as a solid unit that has each other's backs regardless of the situation. I think this is how Carlos was reacting at first until he stepped back and saw the reality of it all...finding out that the office pointed his gun at Starr seemed to bring it all front and center for him.



Question 4

What did you think about Starr's friends? One I believe was japanese and the other was white. The white friend made a joke about chicken while they were playing basketball and said Kalihl was a drug dealer. The white friend seemed to jump to conclusions about a lot of things. It was beginning to feel unrealistic that she had non white friends. I feel like some kids do not know much about racism even though it should be a discussion in all households

-----This seemed very realistic to me. I went to a small boarding school during my high school years and I was the only black in my class. The school had a total of 13 black students out of 230 students. I've been there. lol. You have non-black friends who know nothing about black life except what they see on tv. You try to be informative, but neutral at the same time because you don't wanna come across as an angry black person who has a problem with the man. So you tend to be more open minded than necessary, more accepting of bullcrap. lol. I'm glad she finally stood up for herself when she did.

Question 5

I think Mav was a good samaritan for hiding Davante. I would have been scared. Would you have helped or turn your back on the situation?

-----Me personally, I would have been too scared. Now if I had a husband like Mav in the house, I would have been ok with it. lol

Question 1
I don't think the Dad was a sellout. An older women once told me, "some of the more fortunate ones need to stay in the hood to set examples. If all the fortunate ones leave the community, there would be no neighborhood role models".

Question 2
I don't know how to feel about my child making a statement. When you live amongst it, its different.

Rachel wrote: "Lulu - Hear Hear!

A new question: how does everyone feel about Starr with Chris, Starr staying with Chris, and her family's reaction to it?"

Love is love. I'm far from a young adult; there were some things I couldn't relate to. They were young, but their devotion for each other made their relationship more mature than I'd expect for teens during this day and time.

Lulu wrote: "A new question: how does everyone feel about Starr with Chris, Starr staying with Chris, and her family's reaction to it?

I felt Starr was way too impressed that Chris liked Fresh Prince. That seemed to be the driving force of that relationship. YA is FILLED with over-the-top romantic gestures, and in THUG, Start was far more fixated on what her father would think than the actual quality of the relationship. Also...Chris got way too many cookies for coming to the hood.


Question 3

Do you think Uncle Carlos felt caught in the middle because he was a cop as well as family member? He seemed like he wanted to defend the cop's motives in the beginning.

I think Uncle Carlos definitely felt caught in the middle. He wanted to defend the cops up until he found out what happened to Starr. Again... it's not Black Lives that matter, just Starr and her immediate family - not the ones Start feels are too loud and too hood.


Question 4

What did you think about Starr's friends? One I believe was japanese and the other was white. The white friend made a joke about chicken while they were playing basketball and said Kalihl was a drug dealer. The white friend seemed to jump to conclusions about a lot of things. It was beginning to feel unrealistic that she had non white friends. I feel like some kids do not know much about racism even though it should be a discussion in all households

I felt one of the most realistic portrayals in the book, was Hailey's discomfort with Starr's Tumblr posts. Starr's thirst for validation also seemed realistic. I've seen black teens weigh friendships with non-blacks as better, more validating... And Start definitely does this. She hesitates when she laughs at Hailey's racist joke. She molds her likes and dislikes to Hailey's tastes. Starr's whole mindset is that white is better, and her friendships are a big reflection of this.


Question 5

I think Mav was a good samaritan for hiding Davante. I would have been scared. Would you have helped or turn your back on the situation?

I'd have helped. I'm a helper and doer by nature.

Does anyone have any final thoughts or questions about this book?

I just realized I forgot to ask what people think of the early casting for the movie? ( http://www.epicreads.com/blog/hate-u-... ) I'm good with all of it, except Regina Hall as Starr's mom. Isn't she a little too young and alot too glamorous for the picture in your mind? I think of her as a nurse, an earth mother, an enfolding pair of warm arms and wise outlook on life. Russel Hornsby as Big Mav is brilliant - it doesn't show in the picture of him on this website, but he's huge (and a good actor).

I liked all of the cast picks except for Starr. The actor is mixed but book says Starr is brown skin. I like the characters to look like how I pictured in my head. LOL

I'm ok with everyone except Starr as well....I'd rather see someone new in this role.

Same here. New and brown. It's not as if Stenberg is so famous that she was the key to getting the project green-lit. So they could have taken a casting call approach had they wanted to.

Rachel wrote: "I just realized I forgot to ask what people think of the early casting for the movie? ( http://www.epicreads.com/blog/hate-u-... ) I'm good with all of it, except Regina Hall as Starr's mom...."

I also like everybody except Starr and only because the actor is not brown skinned but very light skinned. I think Regina Hall will play the mom very well. She is in her upper 30's like Starr's mom and very pretty like Starr's mom.

Maya wrote: "Great discussion everyone!

Question 3

Do you think Uncle Carlos felt caught in the middle because he was a cop as well as family member? He seemed like he wanted to defend the cop's motives in the beginning"

yes, i do think he felt caught in the middle. i think he probably felt a lil defensive in the first place as a black cop. black folks complain about the police but will not join the force to make the change happen. then when some do join the force we as black folk treat them like traitors. so they cannot talk about their experience as a cop of color without feeling like they are betraying either their blackness or their fellow cops. so yeah i think he felt caught in the middle.

Maya wrote: "Great discussion everyone!

Question 4

What did you think about Starr's friends? One I believe was japanese and the other was white. The white friend made a joke about chicken while they were playing basketball and said Kalihl was a drug dealer. The white friend seemed to jump to conclusions about a lot of things. It was beginning to feel unrealistic that she had non white friends. I feel like some kids do not know much about racism even though it should be a discussion in all households."

I think the white girl was very realistic. having lots of white friends in school and now as an adult ,i totally can see this.

i have had my white folks mute me and outright unfollow me on social media because of my posts. none of them mention this when i see them in person. i only notice when i go to tag them on something or i say something like "oh,i posted that on such and such, didn't you see it?" they blame the algorithm for not showing my posts. but i know they muted me because they used to like some of my posts on the regular so i was showing up on their feeds. some white folks can have friends of color and STILL say racists stuff. UNTIL their friends of color point it out to them they see nothing at all wrong with how they think or what they say. now either they will apologize and tale a good look in the mirror or they will be offended and leave the friendship saying "that person was too sensitive."

Maya wrote: "Great discussion everyone!
Question 5

I think Mav was a good samaritan for hiding Davante. I would have been scared. Would you have helped or turn your back on the situation?"

my family would help. i would help. it's not even a question. the only thing different is i think my parents would have tried to get him out of the neighborhood and out of their home A LOT sooner. i found it unrealistic for Davante to still be in the neighborhood and helping out at the store. i mean, folks talk.