J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads discussion

This is thread is for Chapters 4-7. We will read these chapters in November (ch. 4-5) and December (ch. 6-7) 2017. If you read ahead, please feel free to go ahead and comment.

Where is everybody? Did anyone else read these chapters? Sorry, I am late, posting this on December 1. I read Chapters 4 & 5 last night, Nov. 30. I hadn't been looking ahead, and was so surprised when I realized Chapter 5 was Riddles in the Dark. OMG! I felt like the book and pages were literally glowing as I read the historic encounter between Bilbo and Gollum. (historic in the sense that that story moment birthed a tale that has been read and loved by readers for years all over the globe!) I simply relished every word. Gollum's dialogue and syntax is so brilliant and they used it verbatim in the movie, I believe. Which now makes me think, is that funny way Gollum has of speaking captured in translations to other languages?!!?!?

So, I haven't been able to watch The Hobbit movies again. I did love the first one, the second had me on the fence: Is this a disaster or not? The third made me want to retch. But the first stayed true to the text (truer?) Is that right, Rachmi? And Gollum got introduced, this scene (from chapter 5) is in the first movie? I think the first installment ends after they are saved from the trees? You know, they've climbed up the trees to save themselves from the Goblin hoards? Reading chapter 5 last night almost made me want to watch the first installment of The Hobbit again!?!!?

Anyway, the sketchy history provided for Gollum in chapter 5 makes me thing Tolkien filled out the whole Smeagol story later. Is it in LotR or one of the tales?

Chapter 4 was fun in that, I loved the passage where Bilbo is having a nightmare but it's actually really happening, i.e. the Goblins invading the cave. Oh and the thunderstorm giants battling!

I'm thinking will continue with two more chapters in December, even though it looks like we're all late in November?

I'm at chapter 6 now. I'm afraid I haven't done much comparing between French and English for chapters 4-6 because it turned out to be very impractical in the train (though I do mean to compare the songs and the riddles at some point!).

Anyway here are my random thoughts. Phrases like 'the silence seemed to dislike being broken' in ch. 4 are exactly why I love Tolkien. He just gives so much life to words. It feels like silence is alive in this sentence and it immediately does so much for the atmosphere.

I also love that in every chapter so far there's at least one sentence telling us how Bilbo misses home. I feel like these constant reminders really help build the character as we're getting to know him. Some may find it redundant but to me, it makes Bilbo more endearing and so very human.

I think Riddles in the Dark is a chapter that is particularly suited for reading aloud. Tolkien talking in first person, exclamations like 'Ugh! It was icy cold.' and of course the riddles themselves. It made me want to buy an audiobook version. I wonder if some of you have recommendations? I don't like to listen to audiobooks much, though I did listen to a radio version of the Narnia chronicles some years ago, but I think with the right reader The Hobbit would be brilliant to hear.

I like Tolkien's uses of comparatives like 'tireder' or 'miserabler'. I think tireder is correct, though very unusual; not sure about miserabler, but they are things that make his writing distinctive and clever and just more alive than that of many other writers.

Sorry that these are very random observations haha. I hope to catch up on chapter 7 soon!

I recently finished a reread of Tolkien's Father Christmas letters btw, which is partly why I became late with my TH reread. Hadn't read them in a while and they really put me in a festive mood :)

I'm here! :)

I actually finished chapter 4-7 by the end of November but to be honest, I don't have anything to start the discussion Lol. I don't know why the only thing that stuck in my head is about the riddle and the eagle. So I'm waiting for you guys to start this thread hahaha.

I haven't watched the Hobbit again, not after when it released in the cinema. So I don't remember much about it, unlike LoTR that I still watch here and there :) But I believe you're right, Heidi. The first one is still true to the book. It's from the second one that they added so many things and it becomes different from what Tolkien wrote.

Reading chapter 4-7 didn't make me want to watch the movie again, but I did imagine the scene from the movie when I read these four chapters, especially the riddle scene. I cannot help not to read it with Andy Serkis voice in my head hahaha.

As for the riddle, I love how the translator translates it in Indonesian. It's so good! It's easy to understand yet a bit hard to guess.

There's one thing makes me confused here though. In English version, the fourth riddle,

An eye in a blue face
Saw an eye in a green face.
“That eye is like to this eye”
Said the first eye,
“But in low place
Not in high place"

Gollum said “Sun on the daisies it means, it does." Now in Indonesian, the translator translate it into "Matahari dan bunga matahari, tentu itu maksudnya."

Bunga matahari is sunflower. I found that daisy is a bit different from sunflower here. I wonder if those are the same thing in English? or if Tolkien has any particular reason chose daisy instead of sunflower? I do think it sounds better in the sentence than if he use sunflower though, because there will be two "suns" there.

Another random thought is the eagles in chapter 6. Are they the same eagle as in LoTR? Do you know anything about these eagles?

Rachmi wrote: "I'm here! :)

I actually finished chapter 4-7 by the end of November but to be honest, I don't have anything to start the discussion Lol. I don't know why the only thing that stuck in my head is ab..."

Daisies and sunflowers are different Rachmi. Daises have white petals and yellow centers, while sunflowers have yellow petals and black centers. So for this analogy, the daises make more sense visually compared to the sun. I also do not know if they have sunflowers in England, which was the inspiration for the Shire. But I can see how a translator would think that a sunflower works better in this context, especially from a linguistic perspective.

The pun is a bit stronger than it looks, because "daisy" literally means "day's eye."

Presumably since it doesn't cross over, another sun analogy was chosen.

Tara wrote: "Rachmi wrote: "I'm here! :)

I actually finished chapter 4-7 by the end of November but to be honest, I don't have anything to start the discussion Lol. I don't know why the only thing that stuck i..."

Yes, daises have white petals while sunflowers have yellow petals. I do think a sunflower works better for Indonesian version, because daisy in Indonesian is bunga aster which isn't popular, at least not as popular as sunflowers. If the translator stick true to daisy and translate it into bunga aster, it won't make sense to me.

Mel ☀︎ wrote: "I'm at chapter 6 now. I'm afraid I haven't done much comparing between French and English for chapters 4-6 because it turned out to be very impractical in the train (though I do mean to compare the..."

I'm not a fan of audiobook. I only tried one audiobook though, Norse Mythology by Neil Gaiman narrated by Gaiman himself. So I don't have much for comparison. With audiobook, it's quite hard to concentrate when I read. While my friends said that they can do many things when listen to audiobook, I didn't get what the narrator says, when I listen to it while I did other things. And when I didn't do anything except listen to it, it made me fall asleep :D

Mary wrote: "The pun is a bit stronger than it looks, because "daisy" literally means "day's eye."

Presumably since it doesn't cross over, another sun analogy was chosen."

I didn't know that! Now I understand the literally meaning of daisy. Thanks Mary.

I think it's one of the disadvantage reading translation edition and being a non English speaking reader, the pun sometimes lost in the translation. But even if I read the English one, I think I still won't get it, as I don't get the pun in it.

I finished chapters 4-7 a couple of days ago. I always enjoy the riddle chapter and the Eagles. Someone asked a question about the Eagles. They are the same Eagles from LOTR. They also appear some in the Silmarillion. They were sent by Manwe to observe Morgoth and his Balrogs and were only supposed to interfere when absolutely necessary. That is why they only appear when there is no other option.

Mel ☀︎ wrote: "Phrases like 'the silence seemed to dislike being broken' in ch. 4 are exactly why I love Tolkien. He just gives so much life to words. It feels like silence is alive in this sentence and it immediately does so much for the atmosphere...."

He does. The thing that's really cool is that he does it so simply. At least in English, these skillful choices of simple words to create atmosphere, feeling, etc. Also, like you said, "tireder" and "miserabler"!

I have never read the Father Christmas letters!

Mary wrote: "The pun is a bit stronger than it looks, because "daisy" literally means "day's eye."

Presumably since it doesn't cross over, another sun analogy was chosen."

Mary, thank you, I didn't know this!

Rachmi, however, your take on sunflower vs. daisy in Indonesian version makes sense.

Mel, I'm not an audiobook person either:( Maybe, someone who is can chime in.

Tara and Sydney, Hi!

I haven't read chapter 6 yet ... but yes, I remember the frequent appearance of those eagles in The Silmarillion:)

You should definitely read the Father Christmas letters, they are so charming and fun and it's pretty unbelievable the work he put in them. Plus his art is amazing as always.

I haven't read The Silmarillion in ages. It was one of my projects for 2017 to reread it but what's with graduating, job hunting and traveling I never got around to doing it. Maybe in 2018!

Mel ☀︎ wrote: "what's with graduating, job hunting and traveling I..."

What an exciting time in your life!

I finished chapters 6 & 7. I forgot how large a role the eagles played in chapter 6 and really enjoyed their appearance. We also so in chapter 6, Gandalf's first suspicion of Bilbo ... "He gave Bilbi a queer look from under his bushy eyebrows ..." I also loved the passages about Dori and Bilbo and the eagles, got me smiling:)

I really enjoyed chapter 7. I don't think I've ever enoyed Beorn as much before, but this time I did, him and his home of animals. The Necromancer is mentioned here and there are scenes that include the Necromancer in LotR or The Hobbit movie? The Hobbit, I think. Were those scenes just added to the screenplay?

Also, Bilbo and the dwarves are told three times to not stray from the path in Muirwood, so we know exactly what they're going to do!

Heidi wrote: " there are scenes that include the Necromancer in LotR or The Hobbit movie? ."

The Necromancer, it was revealed in the beginning of The Lord of the Rings, (view spoiler)[was Sauron in disguise. Gandalf's actions only induced him to unmask. (hide spoiler)].

Here, of course, he's just a plot device to get Gandalf off-stage.

Mary, thanks that for that help:) Have you ever watched the Peter Jackson movies?

It is amusing to see how Tolkien pulls Gandalf in and out of the story!

How are you?

Nope, never watched the movies -- but I'm doing just fine.

Mary, Good to hear, that you're doing fine! I wonder how many of our other members haven't watched the movies ... anyone else?