J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads discussion

This is thread is for Chapters 8-11. We will read these chapters in January (ch. 8-9) and February (ch. 10-11) 2018. If you read ahead, please feel free to go ahead and comment.

Hey all, as noted above, the chapters for January 2018 are chapters 8-9:) Just a little housekeeping

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!! MELLYN NIN!!!!!

Happy New Year, Heidi!

I think I'm making a mistake in my last message. I thought for January we will read 12-15. So sorry about that!

No worries at all, Rachmi!!!!

I think chapter 8 is the longest in the book. It's one of my favorites. I think the journey through Mirkwood is so well done. Of course they are warned from leaving the path, and of course they do. But the creepy eyes in the dark, Bombur's dousing in the river water, his dreams, his preference to sleep and dream once he is woken, the lights, the extinguishing of the lights, the capture by the spiders, override any predictably of the heavy-handed foreshadowing of the warnings. It's probably one of my favorite chapters.

I didn't enjoy chapter 9 as much. I'm thinking because it seemed more "mechanical." They had to escape from the the fairy king's prison and this worked. Whenever Tolkien taps into poetry he's just brilliant; he does that extremely well in the opening of The Silmarillion, also in The Hobbit with things like the moon runes. But sometimes the story just has to be moved along, the dwarves have to escape without giving up the truth about their treasure hunt. The escape is somewhat clever, but for me that cleverness didn't override the sheer mechanics of serving the plot. If Thorin or one or two of the other dwarves had been involved, or Biblo had partnered with one of them, I think the scenes could have been more rich. Sigh. Onward!

Oh, these two chapters are the base for the second Hobbit move installment I think? Which was 50/50 ... But I also think the brief history of the conflict between the dwarves and these particular elves (about a paragraph in the book) was the basis for the opening of the first Hobbit movie, which I actually loved! Which also set me up for great hopes for the trilogy which were severely dashed by the third movie...

Just a thought but I didn’t mind chapter 9 at all. Bilbo has to do it alone, because I feel that if he’d have teamed up with anyone, it probably would have led to bloodshed, which could have poisoned the book later on. Also, not to split hairs, Thranduil is an Elf not a fairy. Just sayin lol.

Fred wrote: "Thranduil is an Elf not a fairy..."

Thanks for the correction:)

I'm glad you liked chapter 9. I don't follow that there would have to be bloodshed if Bilbo had had help, because, well, there's always options, lol.

Well, it did establish beyond a doubt to the dwarves that Bilbo was competent. Help would have undermined that.

Well it's not just that Bilbo had kind of proven himself earlier in the book, technically he had slipped the One Ring-not that he or any of the other characters know this at the time-on and slipped into the Woodland Realm as the gates were closing. So if Bilbo were to take the ring off and ask an Elf for help, I doubt he'd get it. He'd probably sooner be brought to Thranduil and questioned the same way that Thorin was and then the narrative would be at a stand-still. So no matter how you look at it, Bilbo had to free the Dwarves on his own, even if it did take him two weeks.

Also yes, these chapters did serve for the main part of the second film. But a chapter we're set to read-or reread-this month had way too much time in comparison to the book. That's one thing that did tick me off, that and when the Dwarves were first brought to Thranduil...it had been filmed for 3 days exactly like how it was in the book-with two added characters-but in the end it was cut.

Mary, I agree, that "it did establish beyond a doubt to the dwarves that Bilbo was competent. Help would have undermined that." I guess when I wrote "serving the plot" is the plot to take an unexpected being, creature, i.e. hobbit, and show us how that "underestimated" being is a mistake, i.e. through sheerly following the trail of his direct experience, i.e. Bilbo's, he evolves into the heroic figure of the story? If that is the case, then yes, he has to free the dwarves alone. BUT ... in the prior chapter there was so much drama and poetry and interaction (without bloodshed!) with the spiders and elves and the nightmares and river, etc., and he pretty much freed them alone there, too, didn't he? From the spiders?

I can't believe I've already forgotten this from reading the chapters, but did Bilbo talk with any of the dwarves while they were imprisoned, who already knew about his ring? There could have been some fun interchange like there was in some of the previous chapters: Bombur falling asleep, or I can't remember which one it was in Beorn's cabin, who rolled over Bilbo or he rolled over to get to breakfast.

I'm only responding to my surprise with how the pleasure of reading the two chapters 8&9 varied so much for me. Then this morning, I was thinking ... is this why the movies went south? i.e. the actual text was lacking interaction, so they filled in, and what they filled in with, OMG! lol! I may have to go back and re-watch the movies (oh, the torment!) after we finish reading this. I'm curious how I'll respond to the next chapters now. This is the third time I've read The Hobbit and, of course, each time is different.

Eileen wrote: (BTW great to hear from you!): "So if Bilbo were to take the ring off and ask an Elf for help, I doubt he'd get it. He'd probably sooner be brought to Thranduil and questioned the same way that Thorin was and then the narrative would be at a stand-still. So no matter how you look at it, Bilbo had to free the Dwarves on his own, even if it did take him two weeks."

Don't the dwarves know about the ring yet? Or am I getting ahead of the story? I can't believe I can't remember this critical detail!

Eileen also wrote: "Also yes, these chapters did serve for the main part of the second film. But a chapter we're set to read-or reread-this month had way too much time in comparison to the book. That's one thing that did tick me off, that and when the Dwarves were first brought to Thranduil...it had been filmed for 3 days exactly like how it was in the book-with two added characters-but in the end it was cut."

I didn't know about the cutting, wow, that is disappointing. Do they have extended versions? Do you know? Was it put back in? Eileen, as someone who watched the movies, what did you think? I'm huge fan of the LotR movies, and I loved the first installment of The Hobbit. But the second, I began thinking ...uh-oh! and then the third, I just felt like they tried to cram a mini-LotR in at the end! It just seemed to really go of the rails. All that being said, I've watched the LotR movies, gosh, at least 10 times, and The Hobbit ones only once.

Sorry so long!!!!

Bilbo told them about the ring when he had to use it against the spiders.

Mary wrote: "Bilbo told them about the ring when he had to use it against the spiders."

Thanks, Mary, I thought they knew:)

First off, sorry about that. I re-read the spider chapter really late at night and was only kinda paying attention. Heidi as for your questions, yes there are extended editions of all 6 films, however The Hobbit films only have about an extra 30 minutes each and no they did not put it back in for the extended film. But don't fret it's in the appendices for the 5 disc extended edition of DOS, I'll have to look at the Dvd's again to remember which section.

As for the movies...Love LotR and I wouldn't want anything ever changed about them. Hobbit is a different story. The first part was truer to the book than the last two, albeit a little slow. But two and three? I just watched them for the father-son duo. I love Lee and Orlando, wish they'd both get more leading man roles. But yeah they tried to do too much for the final film and it turned into a big mess.

However I can't hate on them too much, it wasn't really PJ's script or even vision. I forget who it was, but someone key who wanted to do The Hobbit and planned some things out left to do another movie and left them with half-finished ideas. So Peter did the best he could. Though I do have to say one thing: Legariel forever! :D

I also think it's better if Bilbo solve the problem on his own without the help from the dwarves, mostly because of what Mary said. And I'm kind of annoyed with them when they seem ungrateful while Bilbo trying to help them escape from the Mirkwood. I can't help not to cheer on Bilbo when he said “Come along back to your nice cells, and I will lock you all in again, and you can sit there comfortably and think of a better plan—but I don’t suppose I shall ever get hold of the keys again, even if I feel inclined to try.” :D

I don't remember much about the Hobbit the movie. But reading chapter 8 & 9 makes me want to watch it again, at least the first one. The only thing I remember from the Hobbit An Unexpected Journey is when I read the scene where Bilbo climb the tree



I love this part in the movie.

Eileen wrote: "However I can't hate on them too much, it wasn't really PJ's script or even vision. I forget who it was, but someone key who wanted to do The Hobbit and planned some things out left to do another movie and left them with half-finished ideas. So Peter did the best he could."

Do you mean Guillermo del Toro? If I'm not wrong he was the first choice as the director but then left out only a few months before they filming.

I also notice a thing that I don't quite understand in chapter 8. I remember I didn't have problem when I first read the Hobbit but now after reading The Silmarillion this part is a bit confusing me

For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World.

Does the Faerie in the West mean the elves that went to Aman? If I'm not wrong one of the elves that refuse to go to Aman is Sindar. And Thranduil is a Sindar elf. But then again why it's called Faerie not Elf?

And who are this Deep-elves and Sea-elves? And what is Wide World? Arda? or Middle-earth? or something else?

It probably means the Undying Lands by Faerie. The Wide World is Middle Earth. Probably because too much of the legendarium might have overburdened a children's book.

The Deep Elves are the Noldor. The Sea Elves are the Teleri.

Rachmi, thank you. I couldn't remember the name and to be honest I didn't feel like looking through Valar knows how many articles to find it. And if I remember Cuivienen (Thingol) had gotten lost in the forest of Nan Elmoth during the great journey West after he and three others had gone to convince many of the other Eldar to go to Valinor. I know he was there for over 200 years before eventually settling in Beleriand. So it's not that he refused to go, it's just he got lost, fell in love and just wanted to stay. But everyone interprets the works differently.

Mary wrote: "It probably means the Undying Lands by Faerie. The Wide World is Middle Earth. Probably because too much of the legendarium might have overburdened a children's book.

The Deep Elves are the Noldor..."

Thank you Mary! Now it makes more sense for me :)

Eileen wrote: "Rachmi, thank you. I couldn't remember the name and to be honest I didn't feel like looking through Valar knows how many articles to find it. And if I remember Cuivienen (Thingol) had gotten lost i..."

Yes, Thingol got lost somehow and then met Melian but I think there's elves that didn't go to Valinor and choose to stay in Middle-earth? The Dark-elves? I think I got mixed up with everything I read in The Silmarillion and things that I read in Wikipedia I cannot differentiate what it's wrong and which one is right Lol

You're right Rachmi. They're called the Avari, though in a generalization they're known as Moriquendi and they are under that title with the group of Teleri that refused to go any further once Thingol went missing.

www.Tolkiengateway.net

This is where you can go to refresh your memory and it's pretty damn accurate too.

Awesome conversation!

So, I did look up the screenwriters for LotR and all the Hobbit films; they were the same: Fran Walsh, Philippa Boyens and Peter Jackson. Yes, Guillermo del Toro began with The Hobbit but didn't finish. Who knows how much he contributed to the screenplay? Anyway, the others also wrote the screenplays for all LotR films, that to, me is why, I'm like, WHAT?!?!

Anyway ... I've finished chapter 10, will probably get to chapter 11 this weekend. I like the gloomy doom foreshadowing in the first part or the chapter. This is a stint where Bilbo's solo experience works for me. And yes, reading this chapter makes me want to sit through The Hobbit movies again, just to see. I enjoyed the rest of the chapter, of course, because almost everyone had a part, even if it was small;) just adds to the overall enjoyment of the read.

Rachmi wrote: "The only thing I remember from the Hobbit An Unexpected Journey is when I read the scene where Bilbo climb the tree ... I love this part in the movie. ..."

And this is a great chapter in the book too!

Heidi wrote: "Awesome conversation!

So, I did look up the screenwriters for LotR and all the Hobbit films; they were the same: Fran Walsh, Philippa Boyens and Peter Jackson. Yes, Guillermo del Toro began with T..."

Maybe we should watch the movies again soon :D Starting chapter 8 there are much difference between the book and the movies. But now I think I kind of understand why PJ and Fran Walsh and Phillipa Boyens made the movies that way. I mean there aren't much happen in chapter 9 and 10 while in the movie was all action sequence that made me feel like wanted to jump up and down when I saw the barrel scene and at the same time laughing out loud because it was too funny. In a way the movies were made to entertain. I don't mean that the book doesn't it's just it's surely targeted for those who aren't read the book too. And probably will not read.

Eileen wrote: "You're right Rachmi. They're called the Avari, though in a generalization they're known as Moriquendi and they are under that title with the group of Teleri that refused to go any further once Thin..."

Yes, I agree The Tolkien Gateway is one of the most trusted source for Tolkien works. I don't quite like their layout though, I don't know why. That's why it isn't my very first site whenever I need to check something. It's Wikipedia, LOTR wiki to be exact, for me though after that I sometimes go to The Tolkien Gateway too hahaha

In chapter 11, I wonder why whenever Smaug comes into the story, the narrator doesn't call by his name? But instead only Dragon? Is there any reason or it's just the way it is?

You know, I've always wondered that too...I never understood why Tolkien went that route either and if you're talking about the tree climbing scene from the flies and spiders chapter, that's actually within the first half hour of the second Hobbit film, not in the first.

Rachmi wrote: "Maybe we should watch the movies again soon :D Starting chapter 8 there are much difference between the book and the movies. But now I think I kind of understand why PJ and Fran Walsh and Phillipa Boyens made the movies that way. I mean there aren't much happen in chapter 9 and 10 while in the movie was all action sequence that made me feel like wanted to jump up and down when I saw the barrel scene and at the same time laughing out loud because it was too funny. In a way the movies were made to entertain. I don't mean that the book doesn't it's just it's surely targeted for those who aren't read the book too. And probably will not read. ..."

I totally agree with all this:D!!!!

I did finish chapter 11 last week. Slow build to a nice a climax, but yes, it really develops Rachmi's thoughts, i.e. the action slows down so much by the time the elves are locked up by the elves (oops! dwarves!) that for the current movie-going public/in order to create 3 installments (Could they have made 1 tremendous film or 2?!?!?) etc. things needed to be added. I do remember loving the barrel scene in the move. So ... at some point I may watch the movies again, maybe with a new attitude:)

Heidi, originally it was suppose to be only 2 films, it wasn't until the San Diego comic con in July of 2012 that they announced that they decided to make it a trilogy. After that they had to go back and rearrange to make the barrel scene the center of two, instead of the end of one and add on for the last two films. Though the one thing that still makes me grind my teeth, as everyone who read the Silmarillion knows, Elves and Dwarves hate each other and therefore can't ever be together. That's one way in where they went wrong. Tauriel and Kili shouldn't have happened. They were disrespectful of the lore in that way. If they had gone through Tolkien's other work, they would've known that after Thingol was slain in his sleep the Elves hunted and killed most of the Dwarves that had been part of the act....And even if it hadn't been written as a romance of sorts and more as a friendship, it still would've gone against LotR. Legolas and Gimli were and are supposed to be the first Elf, Dwarf friendship since the Elder Days.

Sorry for the long rant and as much as I loved Orlando's return to Middle-earth after a decade and Lee's first dip into the world, there are just certain things that I can't quite ignore with the Hobbit, not that they didn't try their best. But it's the same thing for me with Aragorn and Arwen. Though I won't go into that to save spoiling part of LotR for those who haven't read it yet.

Eileen wrote: "Heidi, originally it was suppose to be only 2 films, it wasn't until the San Diego comic con in July of 2012 that they announced that they decided to make it a trilogy. After that they had to go ba..."

Those are ALL great insights. For me the two most significant:

1. It really should have been just two films!!!!!
2. Elves and Dwarves hate each other and therefore can't ever be together. That's one way in where they went wrong. Tauriel and Kili shouldn't have happened. They were disrespectful of the lore in that way. If they had gone through Tolkien's other work, they would've known that after Thingol was slain in his sleep the Elves hunted and killed most of the Dwarves that had been part of the act....And even if it hadn't been written as a romance of sorts and more as a friendship, it still would've gone against LotR. Legolas and Gimli were and are supposed to be the first Elf, Dwarf friendship since the Elder Days. !!!

Yes they are, I'm glad I bought DOS and Five Armies in 5 disc extended editions, in addition to the the theatrical versions. The appendices give a lot of info and insight into exactly how it was all done. And you get to see a lot of funny moments...especially with Orlando, Lee and Luke. If you can't find them on DVD or Blu-ray though, there's someone on YouTube that has a lot, if not all of the behind the scenes things on their channel. TheWoodlandGuard. If you want to see them for yourself, that's the only channel I know of that has the most of the appendices.

Thingol was awake when the dwarves killed him. He hired them to put the Silmaril in the Nauglamír, and they tried to claim the Nauglamír as dwarf-work. The resulting argument ended in his death.

At least, in the final version.

Oh right, thanks Mary...I forgot he had woken up. But the rest I just didn't say because I was running low on time when I wrote it and I was pretty sure most of us knew that anyhow. My mistake if I assumed it though.

I’d forgotten that they referenced the rift in this book until this read in chapter 8. It’s pretty well explained in general terms. I was disappointed the movie tried to make it a rift between the wood elves and Thorin’s dwarves. Tolkien is clear in the book that these two groups had nothing to do with those troubles.

I enjoyed the movies too... mostly. The romance was a stretch, as was the rift, but I went in expecting differences, and tried to watch it just as a movie, not as The Hobbit... that helped.

James wrote: "but I went in expecting differences, and tried to watch it just as a movie, not as The Hobbit... that helped. ..."

Yes, I think that's the way to go!

In all honesty when I saw the first Hobbit film I hadn't gotten too far in the book, so I had no clue what to expect. I don't hate the films, it's just I wish that they had had more time planning. Peter had a solid decade to plan out what he was going to do for LotR, even if he had had from '06 until '09 or'10 to plan the Hobbit, who knows. Maybe it would be far different from what we got.

The problem is that they wanted LOTR, run two. The Hobbit is not really even in the same genre.

True...Hobbit is a children's book, LotR is epic fantasy. Among other things.

The problem I had with The Hobbit movies is that I felt like they treated it as a video game instead of telling a story, especially in the latter half of the series. The escape from goblin town, the barrel scene, the fight with Smaug inside the mountain, Legolas running up the falling bridge, and Thorin's final fight with Azog (fyi those last three examples aren't in the book so no spoilers) all gave off a feel that it was just another level in a game instead of being part of a story from another world. Using CGI orcs, even though they were high quality, didn't help either.

Finally...I really didn't want to be the one to say it, but I did kind of feel that way when I first saw some of the scenes. But Adam, several dozen of those orcs were real people in costumes. It's not just CGI that's changed but styles in make up as well. So the scene where Thranduil is interrogating the orc and the fight scenes in Dale, the orcs are all real. They just for whatever reason-either due to the lighting or the make up-look fake.

Excellent points all!

Eileen: Would The Hobbit have been better if they'd had more time? Probably. The first installment was REALLY GOOD. So maybe they spent more time on that one and the last two, especially the last one was rushed?

Mary wrote: "The problem is that they wanted LOTR, run two. The Hobbit is not really even in the same genre."

Mary, yes. And they tried to make it LotR Redux and it just didn't work.

Adam wrote: "The escape from goblin town, the barrel scene, the fight with Smaug inside the mountain, Legolas running up the falling bridge, and Thorin's final fight with Azog (fyi those last three examples aren't in the book so no spoilers) all gave off a feel that it was just another level in a game instead of being part of a story from another world. Using CGI orcs, even though they were high quality, didn't help either."

I can't agree with you more. Plenty of CGI was used and as I recall it was distracting and the effects took center stage. Definitely losing the spirit of what Tolkien was about.

Heidi, it wasn't just lack of time but bad planning and lack of understanding-in the case of one person-I know it's an adaptation, but they still should've read the Silmarillion or asked Ian Makellan (sorry for the spelling) for help, as he helped them more than so many realize.