J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads discussion

This is thread is for Chapters 12-15. We will read these chapters in March (ch. 12-13) and April (ch. 14-15) 2018. If you read ahead, please feel free to go ahead and comment.

Rereading chapters 12 and 13 is fascinating. I never noticed some of the things in them, like the bats, and didn’t focus on the prose before now. It’s beautiful and poetic... Bilbo exploring the tunnel and taking in the vastness of the treasure, the dragon and the cave is wonderfully written.

I was captivated and rushed on, but I think I’ll read them again. Some of the phrasing Tolkien uses is marvelous! “Flickering fires leaped up and black rock-shadows danced.” There’s another line about how silently Bilbo moves that stopped me, just to enjoy the phrasing.

James, thank you for jumping in and starting this discussion. I'm sorry I'm so late. March rushed in like a torrent and I ended up with very little free time. Anywho, I also enjoyed reading these chapters. I did love the dialogue between Bilbo and Smaug. I also highlighted several descriptive passages of prose.

I love when Bilbo takes the cup from the mound of treasure and Smaug notices this single missing item. It gives such a great show of Smaug's *awareness* of his treasure, even though he puts it to no use ... other than as a "golden couch"—bed:) One of the passages I really enjoyed was the sound of Smaug's awakening : "a vast rumbling", "as if it was an old volcano that had made up its mind to start eruptions once again", "the dreadful echoes", "a bellowing and trampling", "the ground beneath them tremble[d]".

I also loved that even though Smaug's sense of smell was so acute, he could not identify "hobbit"!

In chapter 10, there is the half paragraph about "the necklace of Girion", if I remember correctly this was part of the opening of the first Hobbit movie? If I'm correct, the images of that early period in dwarf history were fantastic in the film.

Another favorite scene was when Smaug smashed the mountainside and closed the door, trapping Bilbo and the dwarves inside.

One of my favorite lines: "They saw the little dark shape of the hobbit start across the floor holding his tiny light aloft." It's such a strong image.

I rushed ahead last month, and backtracked to revisit chapters 12-13 before continuing with 14-15. With the dragon center stage in all of these chapters, I'm glad I did.

I love the poetry of chapter 12, and paused on the line where Bilbo stops just before exiting the tunnel. "He fought the real battle in the tunnel alone, before he ever saw the vast danger that lay in wait." The narrative style shifts at this point as well, which was odd, with Tolkien speaking directly to the reader. "You can picture him coming to the end of the tunnel... Before him lies the great..." It's a brief shift, but odd.

"His heart was filled and pierced with enchantment... and he gaze motionless, almost forgetting the frightful guardian, at the gold beyond price and count." What a line! There's no mistaking the effect Bilbo has come under hearing such words.

I also find it interesting how the dwarves shift from being so timid and unwilling to enter the mountain to sifting through the treasure when forced into the hoard. They seem to forget the dragon as soon as they see and feel gold. Kind of a sad commentary...

I agree. It is sad how easily corrupted and distracted the dwarves are. At the first sight and feel of gold, it's almost like nothing else matters or exists.

I love the passages with Smaug over Laketown. There’s an energy present... perhaps a joy in them... that erupts off the page with the fury of the dragon sweeping over town. I feel Tolkien’s passion for dragons in the writing.

Still, there’s a grimness and sadness behind a lot of what’s happening. A quarter of the population died in the attack, escaping to homelessness and a cold night. “Many took ill of wet and cold and sorrow that night, and afterwards died, who had escaped uninjured from the ruin of the town; and in the days that followed there was much sickness and great hunger.”

This isn’t a typical children’s book anymore. I see the shadow of the lost generation, and World War One, in these passages, like the Dead Marshes in the LOTR. This is something Tolkien has seen firsthand, and it haunts his writing with a grim realism. First time readers, especially young ones, might not see these images, but further reading brings them more clearly into light, and can be staggering when you look past the beauty of the prose to the meaning of the written passage.

It’s also interesting how he glosses over the passage of time in this whole book. Eleven days are covered in a few paragraphs, like the rainy days of travel before the trolls. Its an interesting feature of the book, that switch between broad sweeps of time and the minute study of minutes or hours in passages like Bilbo in the tunnels or dragon’s lair. It may just be a general narrative feature, but it stands out to me in The Hobbit, heightening it’s episodic quality. As I say, 11 days go by at the end of the chapter, but the next three chapters cover little more than a day (speaking from memory, waiting to read).

Hi All, sorry to get here on the last day of the month; nonetheless, I did make it. I read chapters 14 & 15 this weekend.

James, your points are both excellent and deep:) Chapter 14, Fire and Water, easily contrasts/joins the power of Smaug (fire) with the destruction of the town and people of Esgaroth (the lake/Water).

With James poignant insights on Tolkien's experience of World War 1, it is the first time I saw Smaug as a symbolism of bombing. Do the dwarves symbolize the aspects of humanity/creation intent on plundering the earth without consideration to Nature?!?

Tolkien's work is so appreciative of the natural world: the trees, the stars, the lakes, rivers, oceans (of which their "creation" is written so beautifully in the initial passages in The Silmarillion), the SHIRE:)

Chapter 15, works so well to contrast the point of view between Bilbo (of the Shire, child of nature) and his desire for a peaceable approach and the dwarves (mercenary hoarders ?!? beguiled by their own creations: metal and mined gems) determination to hold their treasure at the cost of war with men, elves, etc.

I love the THRUSH. Is there any symbolism to this particular bird? I also loved that the dwarves couldn't "speak" thrush and the bird went to find the old raven. The old raven is quite a majestic figure, very on par with the King of the Eagles.

Onward! Only 2 more months and we will have completed our reading of The Hobbit! A group milestone, indeed:)

I think the dwarves represent more of a reflection on human nature, or a literary reference. The contrast with Bilbo is palpable, but I think the dwarves represent a baser motivation... greed. The lure of money, gold fever, etc. It fits with Beowulf also, in that (I think he even mentions it in an earlier chapter) a dragon hoard absorbs the taint of their magical evil, and clouds the judgement of those who handle it.

It even references Tolkien’s own works in the Silmarillion, with the hoard of Glaurung and the treacheries that led to the fall of Doriath, Turin’s demise, the rift between elves and dwarves over the Nauglafring. I think it’s about greed and lust and pride. Selfish desire. I do love the contrast Bilbo provides. The common sense solution that gets shunted aside when powerful people confer. I really love the fact that he isn’t affected by the gold lust.

In a way, his only reason for going on the journey at all was the hope of a reward, yet when they get the gold... he wants his pipe and slippers before the hearth. He just gets frustrated and dissatisfied with everything the dwarves do.

Very true James. Though I think in some aspects all of Tolkien's Races (other than the obvious) have a link to us. If you really look for it.

The relationship is complex. Notice that Bilbo also represents a modern, Edwardian attitude where the dwarves come out of saga and legend. It shows in their ethos, and their language. Notice how they part, both extending an offer of future hospitality but in very different language.

True...though I think I didn't catch that the first time, it wasn't until I read it the second time that I caught it.

Mary wrote: "The relationship is complex. Notice that Bilbo also represents a modern, Edwardian attitude where the dwarves come out of saga and legend. It shows in their ethos, and their language. Notice how th..."

beautiful, Mary:)

the aspects of humanity/creation intent on plundering the earth without consideration to Nature = greed:)