J.R.R. Tolkien Epic Reads discussion

This is thread is for Chapters 16-19. We will read these chapters in May (ch. 16-17) and June (ch. 18-19) 2018. If you read ahead, please feel free to go ahead and comment.

Chapter 16 is an amazing one. It is brief, but powerful. Bilbo takes it on himself to try resolving everyone’s troubles by slipping away from the dwarves, giving Bard and the Elves the Arkenstone to stand against his share of the treasure (“the profits, mind you”), then quietly returning to wake Bombur at the end of his shift.

He has truly grown from a frightened neophyte to some who considers himself equal to Kong’s and heroes. I love his remarks to the Elven sentries when they ask his business. “Whatever it is, it’s my own,” he remarks. The audacity to walk into their camp and demand access to the leader and expect it to happen is wonderful.

Then, when he tells them of Dain and they accuse him of betraying his friends or threatening them, his squeaking reply seems more incredulous than scared. I find it telling when he talks of being back home where folks are more reasonable.

The closing chapters of the Hobbit are short, but they carry a much larger weight in terms of their content.

I totally agree. When I finished reading chapter 16, I was like: Wow! Completely encapsulates Bilbo's essential nature and his growth into it.

It starts with the essential conflict of Thorin claiming the Arkenstone and Bilbo's refusal to relinquish it, despite threats: "I will be avenged of anyone who finds it and withholds it."

I love how Roac is the stand-in wise elder now that Gandalf has for so long been absent.

And little descriptive touches throughout:
"may his beard grow longer" as a well-wish for a dwarf
"A hobbit in elvish armor, partly wrapped in a blanket, was something new to them." per the Elvenking & Bard ...
"It was as if the global had been filled with moonlight and hung before them in a net woven of the glint of frosty stars." very reminiscent of The SIlmariilion

It is profound that despite delivering the Arkenston to the elves and men, Bilbo will not hide from Thorin and insists on returning to the dwarves.

Then: Of course! Gandalf makes an appearance, praising Bilbo.

And finally, Bilbo's essential nature is still very much intact:
"He was soon fast asleep forgetting all his worries until the morning. As a matter of fact he was dreaming of eggs and bacon."!!!! Very hobbit!!!!

Off to read Chapter 17, hopefully back tomorrow!

Ch. 17. Wow. I forgot ALL this!

Love: "may his beard wither" as the opposite of "may his beard grow longer" as a well-wish for a dwarf.

I also loved the intensive description of the arrival of Dain and his league of dwarves at the end of that single long paragraph. So vivid.

Then, the attack of the Goblins and Wargs! That's what I completely forgot! And the bats. The Battle of Five Armies. The name of the third Hobbit movie. Now I do want to watch those movies again. Maybe I will appreciate them more? Is that possible?

And of course, as throughout The Hobbit, the eagles arrive ... and not too far behind Gandalf:)

Great chapter. Quite a shift in narrative from prior chapter, and it works very well, imho.

I love that Bilbo felt compelled to return to the dwarves in order to wake Bombur before his shift ended so he wouldn’t get in any trouble. Meanwhile, he’s just given the Arkenstone to Bard rather than Thorin.

Its such a wonderful touch that is revealing of Bilbo’s nature.

True. Though considered a traitor to the Quest, once the Dwarves find out, he can't help but go back because he now considers them his great friends and wouldn't want to worry them with his disappearance.

I can’t help but wonder what Bilbo thought would happen? He already felt guilty about keeping the stone when Thorin lusted after it so strongly. It is partly why he takes it to Bard, because he knows Thorin will trade almost anything to get it back. He has to understand how Thorin will react to him when he finds out the truth, but he still returns.

It’s a great demonstration of personal accountability. Bilbo is part of the company, and he feels like his place is by their side until they release him.

These kind of intricate character moments are one of the things I love about Tolkien.

Exactly my thought. Though I still wonder what Bilbo's thoughts are when Gandalf shows up at Erebor and rescues him.

Just finished the Hobbit a couple of days ago. I had to read ahead; I couldn't help myself. I agree James. I also wonder what was going through Bilbo's mind at that point. I think he knew how Thorin would react. But I think he also expected there to come a time when Thorin and all the others realized he was right in what he did. He expected Thorin to eventually come to understand his motivation when Thorin realized his own faults. This is the second time I have read The Hobbit. I loved it once again. I cannot wait to start reading Fellowship.

I think you’re right, Sydney, that Bilbo knew how Thorin would react. I think another part of it is that Bilbo has blossomed and is very adult in terms of responsibility. Thorin can be very juvenile and child-like. He’s emotional and volatile and reactionary. Given that Tolkien began the Hobbit as a story told to his children, I wonder if there’s an element of parenting in their relationship. That kind of moral seems heavy-handed for Tolkien, but I believe Bilbo’s development and maturation is intentional.

But perfect for the start of LotR and what he does in the time between

I had forgotten any details from Bilbo’s return journey. He spends more time returning than he spent getting there, ironic considering how he longs for his own chair by the fire. He, Gandalf and Beorn take the long road north around Mirkwood, and spend the Yuletide at Beorn’s.
They revisit all the stops along the way, collect the troll gold, etc. I feel like there are so many stories here that can be told! I almost feel cheated at having them glossed over.
Tolkien writes “He had many hardships and adventures before he got back. The Wild was still the Wild,” in a tantalizing throwaway line. I want to read about them all!
I’ve really enjoyed revisiting The Hobbit with this level of attention, and am getting anxious to start The Fellowship of the Ring next month.

Not much longer now James. I for one am enjoying the time in-between, having finished it last month. Now I'm slowly working my way through the third Cormoran Strike novel hoping to get through it before the next one comes out.

I can't wait to re-read The Fellowship of the Ring again even though I've read it around 10 times even though I am only 13. It is my favourite book and when I start reading a good book I can't stop so I'm very sorry that I haven't been commenting on The Hobbit lately as I have finished it very early but I have been following the discussions.

Eileen: I’ve got the Cormoran Strike novels to get caught up on too, thanks for the reminder! Though I think I’ve got two to read...

Marji: I’m glad you’re excited to start the next book too. I think I was 10 when I first read them, and love going back to read them again and again! It feels like I find something new each time, which is exciting and fun. It was hard not to read ahead with the Hobbit, and I think I finished early too. I’m struggling to wait until July to start the Fellowship of the Ring. I think it will be fun to discuss

I finished reading the last two chapters of The Hobbit this weekend and really enjoyed them. It was a bittersweet ending:) I know several people have commented that it was hard to stop reading as they went along, but it worked really well for me reading a couple of chapters each month, giving me time to absorb the story.

This is the 3rd or 4th time I've read the book, so I was really surprised how much I forgot, especially toward the end. I'm going to make it a point to re-watch the movies before the years over.

There were, again, so many details Tolkien captured in these last two chapters. The aftermath of war: "Victory after all ... Well, it seems a very gloomy business."

On Bilbo's grief after Thorin's death: "Indeed it was long time before he had the heart to make a joke again."

Of course, the eagles came into save the day ... again!

Beorn's arrival was magnificent: "The roar of his voice was like drums and guns ... He ... broke like a clap of thunder through the ring."

It was an interesting touch for Thorin to be buried with the Arkenstone on his breast. Gosh, I couldn't help but think of Titanic, the movie, when Rose throws the Heart of the Ocean diamond back into the sea in memory of Jack;) (Sorry, the Titanic exhibit just came to town and we re-watched the movie after we saw it!)

I did wonder about Gandalf and the white wizards banishing the necromancer ... I remember those scenes from the movie, not sure which movie? Extended versions? Of The Hobbit? Are these few lines in the book where they came from?

Sigh. Great read:D

They added Gandalf's actual work against the Necromancer to the Hobbit movies, because they were trying to turn it into LOTR.

Mary's right. Though Tolkien never brings Dol Guldor into the hobbit, they added it to the last two films in both theatrical and extended editions. However later on in his life Tolkien did write what Gandalf did while on his "business" away from the quest in the appendices to LotR. In fact some of the last two films materials were taken directly from different appendices in the back of LotR. Including that meeting between Gandalf and Thorin in Bree.

And this in the last chapter of The Hobbit: "Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards. masters of lore and good magic; and they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood."

So it makes sense they put that in The Hobbit movies since it happened while Bilbo was on his unexpected journey.

True. But Mirkwood wasn't purified until after the war of the Ring. Then Thranduil, after he met with Celeborn and divided the land, allowing the Woodland Realm to expand its boarders, renamed it Eryn Lasglaen (forest of green leaves.)

A lot of the extra details they put in the movies come from the appendices to LOTR and other collected drafts... then there’s the stuff they just made up, like they’re better writers than Tolkien (deep sigh)...

You mean like Tauriel (don't get me wrong I like her and love Eve Lily) and that horrifying and completely against the world/writings romance they made up after they decided to turn what should've been a two part film into a trilogy? Yeah, among other things as well, but even to this day I haven't been able to catch them.

Watched The First Hobbit movie and half of the second tonight. Wow. It's great to watch them with the book fresh on my mind. Much easier to see the adaptations made for the screen. It was the second half of the second film and the third film I had the most problems with originally.

I really like a lot/most of the first movie.

I think the Pale Orc they added for the movie, to personalize the antagonist, i.e. not just orcs, but one that has history with Thorin. I think it works, although I'm not crazy about throwing in the orcs in almost every arc of the second movie. It feels overdone. I'm not crazy about Bolg.

I love the Bilbo/Gollum scene of the first movie.

I can see how they're "introducing" all the LotR characters in The Hobbit, with adaptations and/or expansions of brief references in the book: Galadrial, Saruman, Legolas, ... it's late can't think of the rest:)

I don't like that they took the elven lights/feasts out of Mirkwood. And I also don't like that they took out Bombur's falling into the river and dreaming. I thought those two aspects really balanced that whole chapter.

But Peter Jackson like things dark. Half way through the movie trilogy, I can see that was one thing I didn't agree with. I don't read The Hobbit as dark, but once they get to Laketown in the movie all the scenes, cinematography are dark. I do see the correlation with the book: the despotic city leader and the peoples' resentment and distrust of the dwarves because of the last round with the dragon. But I think for me, throughout the book, there were sparks of light. It seems in the second movie installment those are often extinguished.

I do love the woodland elf kingdom and most of the barrel scenes, but as I mentioned before I'm not that crazy about the orcs chasing them the entire way.

I have mixed feelings about Beorn in the movie, but I think I was better with the way they represented him watching it this second time than I was the first time. Beorn was quite signficant in the book and I though he got a short shrift in the movie. Plus, his "man" aspect was too were-wolfy to me.

I do like the scene where Radagast and Gandalf discuss what is essentially the awakening/rebirth of Sauron. Not in the book, but works really well as a seeding/storytelling device in the movies.

I also like the scene with Galadriel and Gandalf.

I like Tauriel. Evangeline Lilly plays the part very well with her facial expressions and movements. I think she out elfs Orland Bloom!

Heidi, if you have the extended edition of DOS, watch that instead. If you don't, they have Bomber going to sleep in the extended edition, ad well as Thorin shooting at the white deer or elk, can't remember what it is. However my favorite part of the book they still kept out of the second film. It's where the rest of the Dwarves were captured and brought to Thranduil-keeping in mind that Thorin was already in a cell by this point.

I agree with the comments on Beorn, he does seem more wolf than bear.

Also, where Tolkien often balances light and dark (with light winning out, generally), Jackson does favor the darkness. He misunderstands the mood it evokes, thinking it builds the drama and seriousness of tone. Tolkien appreciates that darkness looks more dangerous and threatening in juxtaposition to light.

Light also allows you to look deeper into darkness without becoming overwhelmed, so that Tolkien can actually consider graver evils without turning into straight gothic horror. In the end you come away aware of the light rather than the evil. Morgoth, Sauron, and Smaug... even the Master of Laketown, fade against the Elves, Hobbits, Aragorn and Gandalf.

Tolkien is more complex and nuanced, and the end result benefits from it.

Eileen, actually that is great to know about Bombur. We haven't invested in any of the extended editions of The Hobbit ... because ... well ... But it's nice to know they included that, plus the white deer/elk ... stag?!?

James, I agree. "Gothic horror" great term, because I think Jackson, if you've watched some of his other works he really likes that. Loves it. So yes, must agree with what you wrote: "He misunderstands the mood it evokes, thinking it builds the drama and seriousness of tone. Tolkien appreciates that darkness looks more dangerous and threatening in juxtaposition to light. "

So we finished The Hobbit movies last night.

In the 2nd half of the 2nd movie when Legolas comes to save Kili, (I think that's what he was doing) in Laketown, and he swings/leaps into a window there is this MOST CHEESIEST of music, OMG! Me and my husband just turned and looked at each other and where like ... WHAT IS THAT?

It was hugely distracting. Anyway ...

I did not like the whole scene where they set up to gold wash Smaug. I suspect that was the whole purpose, because visually it would look cool, but the whole set up ... was like, yeah ... all these ancient pieces of equipment and everything JUST WORK. Plus, it made Thorin look somewhat heroic and that felt like such a lie. Also very annoying.

The added dialogue given Smaug ... just seemed really modern psychobabble effort to be twisted/psychotic/you're worse nightmare ... didn't work. I couldn't help but roll my eyes. So, now watching the second time, I can see the 2nd half of the 2nd movie was really the worst of it.

The third movie, well it WAS LotR redux as far as film goes. There were some great scenes. BUT I have to acknowledge after reading The Silmarillion and The Hobbit. Tolkien has themes he repeats again and again and again:) The love between elf (immortal) and other (mortal), so they created Tauriel/Kili "romance" in The Hobbit, the eagles saving the day, and the enmity between the races, etc. so it was fair for The Hobbit to have sequences that seem eerily familiar. Because that's what it felt like reading The Silmarillion, by the time you get to the end, there are battles after battles after battles where it seems only the names and geography has changed. So in a strange way to have that in the films is kind of true to the body of Tolkien's work. Plus, the third movie is called THE BATTLE OF THE FIVE ARMIES which was basically the chapter The Cloud Bursts in The Hobbit. So as a movie ADAPTATION ... "Based on the novel ..." as it states in the credits, I don't hate The Hobbit movies as much as I did the first viewing. Well, I loved the first installment. Now, I just intensely dislike the 2nd half of the 2nd installment:) But as a fan, I can appreciate the films a bit more.

From what Eileen says it does sound like the editing was really poor, in that they chose to cut critical scenes. Scenes that would have enriched the films aesthetic beauty as James point out.

SIGH.

Too bad no one asked me, lol.

Heidi, I’m bothered by all the things you mentioned and more about the movies. I’m a purist, I like the movie to follow the book. Honestly, what’s the point, otherwise?

But for the Hobbit movies, I left my judgement at the door and just watched them. After The Two Towers, I learned not to expect as much as I had in my head.

I liked the first movie... it stayed pretty close to the story. It seems odd that both sets of movies track similarly. The first is close to the text, the second introduces new characters and the plots diverge, and the third movie is almost new fiction.

In the end, I love seeing the books and characters I’ve loved most of my life onscreen, and have learned to live with the affectations. I love your analysis of them. We should have spent the last two months watching and discussing them as part of the read! That could have been a fun way to wrap up the Hobbit.