Victorians! discussion

It's time to get acquainted with the third of the three Brontë sisters.

(I am a day early, but I am going on a short trip, so I will not have time to post tomorrow, Sunday.)

A stranger enters into the small community where Gilbert Markham is a gentleman farmer in 1827.

What do you think of Mrs. Graham and her attitude towards her new neighbours?

Some of you know a bit of the story already. Did others, like me who did not know anything about her, start to speculate about her background, and what did you guess about her? It seems very mysterious and intriguing.

She rents a mansion from Mr. Lawrence. Who do you think he is? Who is the man hiding behind a tree outside when Mr. Markham visits Mrs. Graham?

Please post any other thoughts you had when reading the first nine chapters.

I thought she was standoffish, not fitting in, not likeable. But I do know a bit about her background and reminded myself her behavior was understandable...

I think it will be interesting to see how the author handles the unreliable narrator. In chapter 1, it helps me to think that the descriptions of various characters are coming from a 24 year-old male.

Gilbert's mom seems to be something of a busybody.

Renee- I agree that she certainly is a budinsky. I finished this week's reading so here are my thoughts- hope the post is not too long.

Mrs. Graham’s refusal to answer questions about her life and her desire for privacy coupled with the gossip that she is not “respectable” voiced by Eliza and others certainly raises our curiosity about her. Is she escaping from a past sordid event? Did she commit a crime? Is Arthur legitimate?

She certainly demonstrates herself to be strong-willed and opinionated in her meetings with her neighbors. However, I don’t view her in a negative light for this. While her neighbors may be well-intentioned, their questions about Mrs. Graham’s past life certainly verge on intrusive. When she discusses how she is raising Arthur, Mrs. Markham goes too far in voicing her opinion and judgement of Mrs. Graham. Even after Mrs. Graham attempts to change the subject, Mrs. Markham tells her that Arthur will be ruined if she doesn't allow him to overcome obstacles by himself. I can’t fault Mrs. Graham for defending herself, although it certainly becomes a heated discussion.

I especially noticed the differing opinions on women which parallel the contemporary discussions of a woman’s place in Victorian society. Obviously Mrs. Markham maintains the traditional view. When Rose complains that her wants are second to those of her brothers, her mother tells men come first. When Gilbert declares he shall put the happiness of his future wife first, his mother tells him that after he is married, he will come to see the proper place of a man and woman in marriage- that is, that the man’s desires and needs are paramount and a woman’s place is to help fulfill them. I don't know if his opinion will change, but to have a man voice this opinion would seem to be quite progressive. Mrs. Graham also represents the newer ideas about women. When discussing how she is raising Arthur, she tells the neighbors that if he were a girl they wouldn’t be arguing about protecting the child, they would agree with her. Why should boys and girls be treated differently? Are girls unable to overcome obstacles so that they require protection? Things certainly do change slowly- these are issues that still persisted when I was growing up and still persist today in certain segments of society.

Renee wrote: "I think it will be interesting to see how the author handles the unreliable narrator. In chapter 1, it helps me to think that the descriptions of various characters are coming from a 24 year-old male."

Great point! I keep stumbling over that given Anne wrote it.

Linda wrote: "Renee- I agree that she certainly is a budinsky. I finished this week's reading so here are my thoughts- hope the post is not too long.

Mrs. Graham’s refusal to answer questions about her life and..."

Nicely put, I too was impressed by the progressivism of the arguments, quite advanced for the day.

Why was marriage/courtship/romance such a big focus of Victorian writing? Austen, Brontes, Trollope, Eliot, again and again with this focus on a fairly small part of people's lives... Here are some guesses, 1) some of these authors were young women whose novels were created in their courtship 20s (Brontes), 2) notions of love, property, nobility, status, class, womens' roles, freedom were changing rapidly in this era - courtship provides a frame within which to discuss these issues, 3) it sold then, it sells today... 4) your thoughts?

I think romance and love have a long literary tradition- back to Greek mythology, certainly in Shakespeare, for example. It is a facet of human life that all readers are drawn to and which transcends the age in which we live, how we are defined- social class, economic, religion, etc. I think you rightly point out that through the lens of romance writers can explore social, political and other topics which reflect a particular society and its values. This is certainly true in Victorian society when love, courtship and marriage involved so many rules of propriety and who one married involved so much more than "love". Makes for fascinating reading!

Also, I wonder if it wasn't the only area in which men and women had somewhat equal interaction. Women had no real place in the interactions of politics or business. The same in true of war, international intrigue, exploration, travel... all essentially dominated by men interacting with other men.

Plot requires a driving force, and while any of those others might engender strong emotions, they are male emotions, while female emotions would be on the periphery, because society confined them there. Whereas love/courtship/marriage involved both men and women equally (even if the laws were unequal).

I also agree that, then and now, "sex sells" ... or perhaps it's love that sells. Both men and women could (and can) identify with the search for partnership.

Kathy wrote: "Why was marriage/courtship/romance such a big focus of Victorian writing? Austen, Brontes, Trollope, Eliot, again and again with this focus on a fairly small part of people's lives... Here are some..."

Great points! It can be compelling. Provides drama, for sure.

Linda wrote: "I think romance and love have a long literary tradition- back to Greek mythology, certainly in Shakespeare, for example. It is a facet of human life that all readers are drawn to and which transcen..."

True, it isn't as if Austen or the Brontes were going to have deep personal insight into the inner halls of politics, for instance. They wrote what they knew.

Kathy wrote: "True, it isn't as if Austen or the Brontes were going to have deep personal insight into the inner halls of politics, for instance. They wrote what they knew. ..."

This is such an interesting discussion. Courtship really plays a big part in this book. I enjoy it and I guess it is "what sells".

I think that courtship also was a serious part of Anne and her sisters´ lives that they had a lot of focus on. As women it was normally their job to marry for a financially stable life. (They didn´t find husbands and tried their best to earn money anyway.)

I read this book few months ago and enjoyed it very much. What really struck me is Anne's difference in style with her much famous sisters. Anne has a very bold way of expressing her views.

Coming to the discussion at hand, Mrs. Graham has a secret of her own. She does not mix with the society as much as expected from her, thus raising quite a bit of gossip regarding her situation both from male and female members of the society. However, Mrs. Graham has an admirer and a defender in Mr. Markham.
And there is Mr. Lawrence, her landlord. Mr. Lawrence and Mrs. Graham seem to be having a relationship that goes beyond mere landlord and tenant. It is quite a mystery who Mrs. Graham is and what is her actual relationship with Mr. Lawrence.

I really loved Anne's introduction of a mysterious element at the beginning of the book. It really kept me going eagerly through next chapters.

I very much enjoy Gilbert's point of view. He is so impatient with the rural society around him, yet he is committed to running the farm. The new tenant at Wildfell Hall, with her art and reading and serious conversation brings him in contact with a worldly woman he never imagined existed. His anger at the gossip reaches a peak at the tea party, where he sees Mrs. Wilson (not a favourite of his anyway)

"edging her chair close up to my mother, and bending forward, evidently in the delivery of some important, confidential intelligence; and from the incessant wagging of her head, the frequent distortions of her wrinkled physiognomy, and the winking and malicious twinkle of her little ugly eyes, I judged it was some spicy piece of scandal that engaged her powers;"

What a brilliant description.

Linda wrote: "Obviously Mrs. Markham maintains the traditional view. .."

I laughed out loud at the self-satire in her final argument:

"I'm sure your poor dear father was as good a husband as ever lived, and after the first six months or so were over, I should as soon have expected him to fly, as to put himself out of his way to pleasure me....--he ...seldom found fault without at reason, always did justice to my good dinners, and hardly ever spoiled my cookery by delay--and that's as much as any woman can expect of any man."

Sounds like he was quite a guy. Looking back, I see he forced Gilbert to take on the farm, getting a death-bed promise that bound Gilbert to a life he didn't want.

Ginny wrote: "I very much enjoy Gilbert's point of view. He is so impatient with the rural society around him, yet he is committed to running the farm. The new tenant at Wildfell Hall, with her art and reading a..."

Small town gossip. Where everyone knows your business, sometimes before you do. I also laughed at the scene of the tea party. Evidently in the the delivery of some important, confidential intelligence. It was some spicy piece of scandal.

Speaking from the vantage point of someone who grew up during the women's rights era, sad to think that Mrs. Markham's view of women was still common in the middle years of the 20th century. Although Anne did not agree with Mrs. Markham, there must have been a wide range of opinions among the contemporary readership. At this point in the book, I think one might believe that Anne shared Mrs. Markham's views.

"It must be either that you think she is essentially so vicious, or so feeble-minded, that she cannot withstand temptation,—and though she may be pure and innocent as long as she is kept in ignorance and restraint, yet, being destitute of real virtue, to teach her how to sin is at once to make her a sinner, and the greater her knowledge, the wider her liberty, the deeper will be her depravity..."

Anne Bronte wrote this almost 200 years earlier, progressive thinking for her times. We overlook her, when we think of early feminists, and it shows the reason why she had to write a new preface to the second edition.

Linda wrote: "Renee- I agree that she certainly is a budinsky. I finished this week's reading so here are my thoughts- hope the post is not too long.

Mrs. Graham’s refusal to answer questions about her life and..."

I had to research budinsky. At first I wondered if it was a predictive text mistake, but I see it is a modern word for busybody, but does anyone know the origin?

I got this from dictionary.com...

buttinsky-

noun, plural butt·in·skies. Slang.

a person who interferes in the affairs of others; meddler.
Origin: 1900–05, Amer.; butt in intrude + -sky, extracted from Slavic surnames

I don't know that I've ever seen "budinsky" spelled out. It's Yiddish and the way it's pronounced sounds more like a b than a t sound. Anyway sorry for the confusion- it just seemed the perfect word to describe Mrs. Markham!

It is actually a very hot topic in Denmark at the moment. We have socalled "curling-parents" on the one hand and busybodies on the other hand, who (sometimes without knowing the real circumstances and sometimes rigthly), start to critise the curling-parents.

Linda wrote: "I don't know that I've ever seen "budinsky" spelled out. It's Yiddish and the way it's pronounced sounds more like a b than a t sound. Anyway sorry for the confusion- it just seemed the perfect wor..."

Yiddish! Wonderful. No need to apologize. Very appropriate. Mrs. Markham is such a complete character. I know we are seeing her through Gilbert's eyes, so we love her dearly, even though she is embarrassing. She only wants what she perceives as best for her favourite son.

Yes. No apologies. It's a great word. I just love words and was determined to track it down.

Charlotte-
What does "curling" mean?

Renee wrote: "

Charlotte-
What does "curling" mean?"

The word is taken from the ice-sport curling, where the team wipes the path free for the main contestant.

I'm just curious to know what everyone thought of Gilbert.

To me, he is a liberal mind living in a conservative society. His liberal views were supressed and he had succumbed to a conservative life till Mrs. Graham made her appearance. In her, he found another liberal mind, a sort of an ally to connect with and share his views.
I felt that Gilbert's closeness and attraction towards Mrs. Graham rose out from his yearning to associate with a similar minded, intelligent and accomplished young woman which his own society lacked.
And his aversion to gossip and hearsay is a remarkable.

It is quite a switch to have a male narrator in a "romance" type of book. I had to keep changing the gender of my internal narrator as I read. I think Anne does a good job of getting the masculine tone. I wonder how much of it is due to her brother?

I keep comparing Gilbert's narrative to the narrator of My Cousin Rachel. Both are young men who become infatuated with older (perhaps only in life experience) women. I find myself reading all of Gilbert's comments with a grain of salt. Right now he is an unreliable narrator. I'm waiting to pass judgement on his observations.

That said, His mother certainly seems to be a busybody.

Renee- I read My Cousin Rachel recently and just saw the new movie version. I can understand the similarity you note- it will be interesting to see if it continues.

So far I find Gilbert a mixed bag of progressive and traditional- good thing because it makes him a more realistic person. While he differs with his mother on the role of a husband and wife, he disagrees with Helen on raising a boy and girl in the same way in order to teach them to maintain a virtuous life in the face of temptation. Bharathi posted Helen's great quote on this. To be fair, he felt he wasn't able to fully express his opinions during this conversation so perhaps he will reveal more of his views later in the story.

Certainly his being attracted to a person such as Helen- independent,mysterious, intelligent- may lead us to think he has progressive views. Or is it that he is attracted to her just because she seems "edgy" and unattainable?

I think his refusal to listen to the gossip about Helen stems from his infatuation- he doesn't want to hear or believe anything negative. I'm not sure he is averse to gossip and rumor in other situations though.

Renee wrote: "I keep comparing Gilbert's narrative to the narrator of My Cousin Rachel. Both are young men who become infatuated with older (perhaps only in life experience) women. I find myself reading all of G..."

What a great discussion. Gilbert is a great character and I was so impressed with Anne's progressivism or at least the fact that she raised feminist issues sympathetically. And Anne was the quiet, pious sister...

Charlotte wrote: "What do you think of Mrs. Graham and her attitude towards her new neighbours?"

I like her a lot. She's intelligent, artistic, thoughtful, independent. And I can understand her desire to fiercely guard her private life, and would certainly say she's got every right to do so. But, this being a Victorian novel, I know she's going to have plenty of problems - as so many headstrong heroines must.

And this is rural England, which means nobody is allowed to live their life unnoticed (especially when you're a woman).

I love Fergus' wisecracks about all this, like when he says: "...and mind you bring me word how much sugar she puts in her tea, and what sort of caps and aprons she wears, and all about it; for I don't know how I can live till I know."

I was annoyed when her neighbours launched into lectures on how she should raise her child - and since Bronte brings up patriarchy, I also wonder if they'd dare to grill a father in a similar way. I had to remind myself it was the way society was back then (and still is in some parts of the world, unfortunately).

I found it interesting that Mrs. Graham knows her place in all of this perfectly well, and plays the game because she values her privacy but doesn't want to be seen as a complete ogre.

She makes little concessions to Gilbert when she feels he's about to crack, and they're all a bit like a mother giving a cookie to a crying toddler. Gilbert comes off as a man-child, hardly able to handle anything more than a man-woman. Is he falling for Mrs. Graham, or is he just enjoying the thrill of the hunt? Is he rebelling against mommy's divine plan for his life, or trying to outdo Lawrence?

Renee wrote: "I think it will be interesting to see how the author handles the unreliable narrator. In chapter 1, it helps me to think that the descriptions of various characters are coming from a 24 year-old male."

A 24-year-old male who's also incredibly intelligent and a brilliant writer ;)

I like Gilbert, but I'm not entirely sure he comes across as convincing.. I can see the puppet strings, so to speak.

In the passages that were particularly brilliant, I was immersed in the novel but there were moments when I found myself admiring Bronte's skill as a writer more than admiring Gilbert as a character.

Piyangie wrote: "Anne has a very bold way of expressing her views."

I was struck by that as well.

I certainly wouldn't call any of the Brontes old-fashioned, but this is the first novel I've read by Anne and it's definitely coming across as more modern than the others... She doesn't just show - she tells, and very plainly too!

Linda wrote: "Renee- I read My Cousin Rachel recently and just saw the new movie version. I can understand the similarity you note- it will be interesting to see if it continues.

So far I find Gilbert a mixed ..."

I'm also not entirely sure about Gilbert.. and that's definitely keeping things interesting.

But if I had to bet, then I wouldn't put any money down on his running away from the farm to a lusty, bohemian life somewhere with Mrs. Graham..

There's the fact he couldn't stand up for himself when it came to taking over the farm. And also, he could just be in love.. Mrs. Graham might be giving him wings of courage now, so to speak, but give him 6 months of marriage and would the chicken underneath show through? He's been basically brought up spoiled by his mother, and I don't think it would be that easy to overcome his upbringing.

Renee wrote: "I keep comparing Gilbert's narrative to the narrator of My Cousin Rachel. Both are young men who become infatuated with older (perhaps only in life experience) women. I find myself reading all of G..."

It is an interesting comparison you have made, Renee. But I feel Gilbert is little more reliable than Philip (in My Cousin Rachel). Philip is the most stupid and naive character I have so far come across in the history of classics and his narrative was highly unreliable.

I am mixed on Gilbert. He seemed like a hard working person that wanted the best out of the farm. As the story progressed, Does anyone think he got angry more often? He would go to his room and slam doors. Several times he left the farm work and went to see Mrs. Graham. The way he lashed out at Mr. Lawrence was awful. He slammed his brothers head into a wall. His love for Mrs.Graham was not good.

Piyangie wrote: "Renee wrote: "I keep comparing Gilbert's narrative to the narrator of My Cousin Rachel. Both are young men who become infatuated with older (perhaps only in life experience) women. I find myself re..."
Your comment about Philip made me laugh. If the reader believes that Rachel was the most cunning and manipulative of women, Philip certainly was completely undone by her. I think du Maurier meant for us to be a bit uncertain about everyone in the novel. However, Philip's obsession with Rachel which leads him to totally illogical, impulsive behavior is similar to Gilbert's obsession with Helen, leading him to emotional and violent ( poor Mr. Lawrence) behavior. (For anyone who hasn't read My Cousin Rachel, although it isn't Victorian, is an unsettling story which I think was much influenced by Victorian literature)
I find it interesting that in many Victorian novels I have read, it is the men who behave irrationally or illogically based on their emotions when it is women who are always stereotyped as being ruled by their emotions rather than their heads.

Cindy wrote: " He would go to his room and slam doors. Several times he left the farm work and went to see Mrs. Graham. The way he lashed out at Mr. Lawrence was awful. He slammed his brothers head into a wall. "
His childish and almost dangerous methods of venting out his anger was thoroughly unpardonable; nothing can justify Gilbert's actions. But I felt it was his mere frustration of not knowing details of Helen's past, his suspicion of Mr. Lawrence being Helen's lover and especially his inability to sum up courage to inquire about his doubts from her directly that kept nagging at him and made him foolishly emotional and uncontrollable at times.

Yes, Renee, I too get the comparison with My Cousin Rachel.

Poor old Gilbert does wear his heart on his sleeve. I'm fearful that he might get very badly hurt. His loyalty towards Helen is keenly demonstrated when he gets wind of the neighbours' gossiping about her. I'm not sure though how much Helen would thank Gilbert for his defence of her. She is far too independent a person to feel the need for an 'avenging angel' in the shape of Gilbert Markham. I do hope, however, that the emotional walls come down somewhat or she and her son, Arthur could find themselves very isolated. Her attitude is hardly
surprising, however, considering whatever dark and mysterious unhappiness lay in her past.

Mrs Markham is seriously intrusive in her advice-giving on child-rearing. She doesn't even know Mrs Graham and has the audacity to believe that she, Mrs M. knows all about what Arthur needs and doesn't need. Such presumption! Unfortunately, this is still a modern day failing among some older women who have grown children. Sometimes they are so sure that they know best that they can't stop themselves handing out their pearls of wisdom.

At first I found Mrs. Graham rather snippy, there was no call for her to treat her neighbors so unkindly when they are basically still strangers. Gilbert's assessment pretty much matched mine.

‘I cannot say that I like her much. She is handsome—or rather I should say distinguished and interesting—in her appearance, but by no means amiable—a woman liable to take strong prejudices, I should fancy, and stick to them through thick and thin, twisting everything into conformity with her own preconceived opinions—too hard, too sharp, too bitter for my taste.’

Though in the later chapters of this segment I am warming up to her. Being a female painter to support herself and her son is rather intriguing. How did she manage to have her paintings sold in London? That’s quite a feat! How is she signing them?
I wonder if Gilbert will buy the painting of the seascape. It would fit his character.

Kerstin wrote: "At first I found Mrs. Graham rather snippy, there was no call for her to treat her neighbors so unkindly when they are basically still strangers. Gilbert's assessment pretty much matched mine. ‘I c..."

Mrs. Graham definitely has some mystery in her that she wants little contact with her new neigbours as possible. Her curious neighbours find her evasion to society puzzling and paint a bitter picture of her.

Anyhow, I felt a connection with Mrs. Graham from the beginning and enjoyed reading about her.

I liked Gilbert quite a bit, but he comes across as immature, especially his behavior with Lawrence and the vicar. I wonder who Anne Bronte based this character upon. Did she think that men behaved that way, or did the men she knew were capable of such behavior.

Bharathi wrote: "I liked Gilbert quite a bit, but he comes across as immature, especially his behavior with Lawrence and the vicar. I wonder who Anne Bronte based this character upon. Did she think that men behaved..."

Much of it would have come from her experience with her brother, Branwell. I am watching a great movie, To Walk Invisible (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/s...) that explores the family life.

Bharathi wrote: "I liked Gilbert quite a bit, but he comes across as immature, especially his behavior with Lawrence and the vicar. I wonder who Anne Bronte based this character upon. Did she think that men behaved..."

He is only 24. So it is to be expected he is a little mercurial in his temper. I like his passion. He really is a nice guy.

Kathy wrote: "Why was marriage/courtship/romance such a big focus of Victorian writing? Austen, Brontes, Trollope, Eliot, again and again with this focus on a fairly small part of people's lives... Here are some..."

Romance and love are still the focus of a lot of novels. I see lots of them on the shelves every time i look at the fiction section in Waterstones. i imagine people will keep writing about it until people cease to be interested in it.

Kerstin wrote: "At first I found Mrs. Graham rather snippy, there was no call for her to treat her neighbors so unkindly when they are basically still strangers. Gilbert's assessment pretty much matched mine. ‘I c..."

There were quite a few succesful female artists in the Victorian era, so it is quite likely that Mrs graham could make a living as an artist.

Charlotte wrote: I think the only one who can delete your spoiler is yourself. Click "edit" underneath your post."

I deleted mine, but the quote appears in Kerstin's, and I can't edit that one.

Spoilers deleted. No worries. :)