Writers of Color Book Club discussion

In this discussion board, we will ONLY talk about Part Two of Giovanni's Room. This includes Chapters 4-5 of this section. Please make sure that anything that you believe can be labeled as a spoiler be covered up with the (view spoiler). This will guarantee that we all continue to have a positive experience as we read.

In terms of our liveshow, we will be choosing individuals who have posted at least once in each of the discussion boards designated for Giovanni's Room. This will insure that the chosen guest panelists will be a person who has read the book in it's entirety and also has some thoughts on what they've read.

Anyone else finished? I love that this was such a short read. I'm trying to figure out if I found some of the passages kind of pretentious. I did love the story as a whole though.

Louise wrote: "Anyone else finished? I love that this was such a short read. I'm trying to figure out if I found some of the passages kind of pretentious. I did love the story as a whole though."

I finished reading it, too:) I loved this, I think it's one of the most beautifully written books I've ever read.

One question, though. At the end, David tore some piece of paper that Jacque had brought him... What was it? I guess it was explained in the beginning of the novel but I didn't quite catch that.

Louise wrote: "Anyone else finished? I love that this was such a short read. I'm trying to figure out if I found some of the passages kind of pretentious. I did love the story as a whole though."

Sometimes with well-written books I find myself thinking that as well...I think theres a fine line between beautiful writing and passages being over-written. I don't really know what the difference is, it usually depends on my mood whether I think it is one or the other.

While I didn't think this book was necessarily over-written, I can see why the writing style can be pretentious...

What parts did you find were pretentiously written?

Elli (The Bibliophile) wrote: "Louise wrote: "Anyone else finished? I love that this was such a short read. I'm trying to figure out if I found some of the passages kind of pretentious. I did love the story as a whole though."

..."

I've just had a flip through to see if I could spot any of the passages that stuck out to me when I was reading it, but I couldn't see any specific ones. There were a few where I thought that the prose was just so overdone, if that makes sense. I'm wondering how this would strike me on a re-read. I think I would definitely pick this up again in the future.

Christina, I was a little confused about the envelope as well- did anyone spot what that was? I feel like i'm missing some deeper meaning there.

Christina wrote: "Louise wrote: "Anyone else finished? I love that this was such a short read. I'm trying to figure out if I found some of the passages kind of pretentious. I did love the story as a whole though."

..."

Louise wrote: "Elli (The Bibliophile) wrote: "Louise wrote: "Anyone else finished? I love that this was such a short read. I'm trying to figure out if I found some of the passages kind of pretentious. I did love ..."

It's the letter he got from Jacques about (view spoiler)[ Giovanni's death. It basically means that he cannot escape Giovanni, the past, etc. (hide spoiler)]

There were points in the novel where David would allude to the fact that other people in his life had their suspicions about him. For instance, the night he meets Giovanni and he mentions that Jacques saw "what he always knew was there" when he hit if off with Giovanni, and when (view spoiler)[ Hella caught him with the sailor, she said "I think I knew for a long time" (hide spoiler)] - do you think he wasn't as good as hiding it as he thought, or was he just paranoid? I mean, because this was a first person narrative and you can't always 100% trust it, especially one like David...

Lynecia wrote: "There were points in the novel where David would allude to the fact that other people in his life had their suspicions about him. For instance, the night he meets Giovanni and he mentions that Jacq..."
Oh I definitely agree. I don't think he was really fooling anyone at all. I think that everyone who knew him and spent time with him knew that he was gay, but they also knew that he was in serious denial so they didn't mention it. Or were generally pretty quiet about it with him. I doubt that even joking about it with David would have been taken kindly by him.
It's been too long since I read the book, but weren't their occasions where people in the bar were discussing or taking bets on his sexuality? Or was it just gossiping about him and Giovanni getting together? My memory is terrible and it's been a few months since I've read this book!

Lydia, I think it was both! I think it also may have been thought odd that he was seen around town hanging with VERY OUT gay men and they all went "hmmmm"

Yes, it was strange* that David associated with all of these very openly out gay men, whilst trying to hide and be in denial about his sexuality. I think the circumstances made it pretty clear to most people he probably wasn't straight!

*well i say "strange" but it made sense to me (like him naturally feeling comfortable around other gay men even if he had internalised a lot of homophobia, possibly just gravitating to people "like him" and things like that)

Lydia wrote: "Yes, it was strange* that David associated with all of these very openly out gay men, whilst trying to hide and be in denial about his sexuality. I think the circumstances made it pretty clear to m..."
I agree. He thought he was fooling people and he really wasn't at all.

Another minor thing that kept bugging me was the fact that he never got a job! Like, seriously? Writing home begging your father for money or borrowing off friends, and even LIVING OFF poor Giovanni. A small thing to be sure but it was annoying.

Lydia wrote: "Yes, it was strange* that David associated with all of these very openly out gay men, whilst trying to hide and be in denial about his sexuality. I think the circumstances made it pretty clear to m..."

Lynecia wrote: "Lydia wrote: "Yes, it was strange* that David associated with all of these very openly out gay men, whilst trying to hide and be in denial about his sexuality. I think the circumstances made it pre..."

“Love him,’ said Jacques, with vehemence, ‘love him and let him love you. Do you think anything else under heaven really matters? And how long, at the best, can it last, since you are both men and still have everywhere to go? Only five minutes, I assure you, only five minutes, and most of that, helas! in the dark. And if you think of them as dirty, then they will be dirty— they will be dirty because you will be giving nothing, you will be despising your flesh and his. But you can make your time together anything but dirty, you can give each other something which will make both of you better—forever—if you will not be ashamed, if you will only not play it safe.’ He paused, watching me, and then looked down to his cognac. ‘You play it safe long enough,’ he said, in a different tone, ‘and you’ll end up trapped in your own dirty body, forever and forever and forever—like me.”

Sorry for the long quote but I just wanted to point out that I think everyone (view spoiler)[(except Hella until the end) (hide spoiler)] knew he was gay AND in denial. Plus, Baldwin made a conscious choice not to use the word "gay" or "homosexual." Don't they say "queer" at one point? But I think they use it in a tongue in cheek manner. I think he did that because it's not really about being gay. I mean, was the way David treated Giovanni that much different than how he treated Hella? It was more intense with Giovanni but we also got to see more of their relationship. The book is more about denial of who you are and not allowing yourself to love/be loved. In other words, the story could be about gay, straight, bi, etc. characters and the essence of the novel wouldn't really change. Although, I think it's perfect with two male characters.

I like David. I might be in the minority. He's selfish, he's ignorant, he's oblivious to how his actions affect others but that's what makes him seem real. I pity him, I guess.

One last thing! I don't know if you're aware and maybe this might change your read of the novel a bit but Giovanni's Room is semi-autobiographical. Baldwin was in a relationship with a man who was in constant denial of his sexuality. He married a couple of women while maintaining his relationship with Baldwin. The book is even dedicated to him (Lucien). And Lucien was at Baldwin's bedside when he died.

Oh yeah, there are two characters in Another Country that are basically David and Giovanni 2.0, which is really interesting.

Sorry for the long comment, I guess I had a lot to add! :D

Danielle (OneSmallPaw) wrote: "Lydia wrote: "Yes, it was strange* that David associated with all of these very openly out gay men, whilst trying to hide and be in denial about his sexuality. I think the circumstances made it pre..."

Great comment!
*I was wondering about that, even the first time, I read it, how much of Baldwin's own experiences were wrapped up in his characters.
*You're right, he never openly uses the word "gay", but some characters do refer to others as "fairies" and "queens".
*Giovanni's diatribe in their penultimate scene in "the room" he lays all of that out there, telling David how closed off he was, and how the whole time, he was just trying to love him (dammit!) and he wouldn't let him!
*sigh* I can talk about this book all day.
I'm heading to read "Another Country" next.

Lynecia wrote: "Lydia wrote: "Yes, it was strange* that David associated with all of these very openly out gay men, whilst trying to hide and be in denial about his sexuality. I think the circumstances made it pre..."

I just found it so irritating that he didn't seem to want to take responsibility for himself (in getting a job) and took advantage of Jacques- I bet he never paid back that money he borrowed. I think the money he was asking his Dad for was meant to be his own money from his own bank account, but his Dad didn't want him to come home to nothing. Again, he's an adult- I would have just given him the money he asked for and let him take responsibility for his own life, I think.

Louise wrote: "Lynecia wrote: "Lydia wrote: "Yes, it was strange* that David associated with all of these very openly out gay men, whilst trying to hide and be in denial about his sexuality. I think the circumsta..."

It was co-dependence, that's for sure. Of course, the Dad should have cut him off but that's co-dependence for yah! Plus, Jacques knew the score. They had a sugar daddyish relationship without the sex. Jacques liked having young, hot men around him which is incredibly sad (Poor Jacques, he just wanted to be young and in love). David took advantage of that but Jacques was fully aware of it. I think Baldwin wanted to make them (Jacques, David's Dad) the type of characters who have more money than problems. David is definitely a bit of a douche for doing that but they are all pretty complicit, in my opinion.

Lynecia wrote: "Danielle (OneSmallPaw) wrote: "Lydia wrote: "Yes, it was strange* that David associated with all of these very openly out gay men, whilst trying to hide and be in denial about his sexuality. I thin..."

That is my favorite scene. (view spoiler)[ Staying in the tiny room is freedom while leaving it is death. (hide spoiler)]

Ok! That makes sense, I'm looking forward to rereading this in a couple of years to see how it stands up to rereading!

Louise wrote: "Elli (The Bibliophile) wrote: "Louise wrote: "Anyone else finished? I love that this was such a short read. I'm trying to figure out if I found some of the passages kind of pretentious. I did love ..."

I agree! (don't really have anything to add haha!)

Danielle (OneSmallPaw) wrote: "Louise wrote: "Lynecia wrote: "Lydia wrote: "Yes, it was strange* that David associated with all of these very openly out gay men, whilst trying to hide and be in denial about his sexuality. I thin..."

Danielle: Fantastic comment! And oh my gosh never apologise for a long comment. Especially if we're talking about Baldwin. I didn't know that it was semi-autobiographical! I mean, I knew that Baldwin was homosexual and lived in France for a while, so I assumed he'd drawn on real-life experiences to an extent, but I didn't know the extent to which he had!
And I think I feel the same way about David as you do. Even though he had many flaws (like, serious flaws, not the nicest guy on the planet :P) he didn't irritate me whilst I was reading. He just felt human to me.
Basically I wanted to run into the book, pick the characters up, wrap them in a blanket, give them some hot chocolate, help them all to accept themselves, and then give them a happy ending... but that wasn't exactly possible haha.

I read this book in two sittings in one day. For the longest time I kept wondering what David did for a living and I was baffled at how shamelessly he lived off of his father, Hella, friends, and of course, Giovanni.

I enjoyed the book and the writing style didn't bother me. It was a bit difficult to get into the story because of the way the book is structured, but things settled after the first two chapters. I also got a lot more out of the story by reading about Baldwin's life and finding some interpretations on the text.

TL;DR I liked this book a lot.

I like a lot Giovanni, for me, he was like a lost child all along the book! I like him better than David in the novel. But I must say that, as a french girl, I didn't like the french sentences (usually I don't like them too much in books). The language and the choice of words were strange sometimes. When you are american speaking french you can make mistakes, it's normal ; but when it's a french man who is speaking, the french is supposed to be used in a way it's really spoken.

I'm not that far into it but I'm french canadian so I'll report back on the French sentences.

Wow! Those last two chapters were so heartbreaking

For me I don't hate David or Giovanni. I understand both of them through their pov. They are both flawed in different ways. My absolute favorite part was chapter 4 when he and Giovanni have that final talk in his room before he packs up and leaves. Everything is all out on the table and Giovanni says the truth that David doesn't want to believe. That was the most passionate, heartbreaking and raw moment in the whole book for me.

This book as a whole is so good and the story just draws you in. I started and finished it today. The way the story is written and both David and Giovanni are so interesting and fun to read. I also like the fact that you can like them at one moment and then not so much in other moments.

The thing I didn't like was the characters views on women. They both had these negative views on women

Chaneli wrote: "For me I don't hate David or Giovanni. I understand both of them through their pov. They are both flawed in different ways. My absolute favorite part was chapter 4 when he and Giovanni have that fi..."

I agree with you about the characters pov of women. To me, Hella didn't seem to be that fleshed out if a character. She kept making these grand speeches about women just wanting a man and it was so odd because she was in a book basically surrounded by gay men and nowhere to actually go with these declarations, which made me feel like she was just a technical character.

I'm sad to say that I'm not as in love with this book as others, but I wish I was. I found the prose in the book to be beautiful. However, there seemed to be moments like Louise pointed out that came across as pretentious. For example, whenever Hella talks, I get the feeling that this character is just filler for an idea of what happens to women who fall in love with gay men opposed to being fully functional in the story. I also think the end chapters where David is imagining what happened to Giovanni in prison were overdone.

Finally, the ending came off as a bit contrived with the way that Giovanni ends up. It seems like it should've been a longer book so we could've gotten a better perspective of why he committed the crime (even though it is speculated as to why he did it). Everything just seemed too rushed to me. I wanted to see a fuller picture of Giovanni after he and David parted ways. Not to mention, I wanted a different perspective of the book than David's since I never fully trusted his narrative voice. Especially in the end.

Adira wrote: "Chaneli wrote: "For me I don't hate David or Giovanni. I understand both of them through their pov. They are both flawed in different ways. My absolute favorite part was chapter 4 when he and Giova..."

Yes, I agree. I felt the ending was rushed. I think it would've been better if we had a dual narrator and have it switch between David and Giovanni that way we can get a fuller picture

So I finished the book a few days ago and I think I've gathered my thoughts now. I loved this book. The writing is so simple yet beautiful.

I have this seemingly unpopular opinion of not disliking David at all. Of course he's not making the decisions I would have wanted him to make, but I understand him through all of it. What I got from his character was that for him it was not just about his sexuality but the entire life he had imagined for himself. He felt that being gay would make a lot of other things impossible for him, things he felt were important. I understand that Giovanni was heartbroken but I didn't feel like David deceived him. I think both Giovanni and Hella used David as he used them, to mirror a life they thought they wanted.

One thing I want to ask you fellow readers - was Baldwin a misogynist or was he a feminist being ironic? I can't tell! The subject of the female gender role is clearly present both through comments made by especially Giovanni but also, of course, through Hella's character and the way she changes her perception of herself.

This was such a fascinating read. I can't wait to read more Baldwin!

Maria - I was wondering the same thing: is Baldwin a misogynist? I've read several quotes about beating women, and all the stuff Hella said was so woman-hating (or degrading, or self-effacing, or just plain weird for a woman to say). But I don't really know if he was making a statement about his characters, or the times, or his beliefs.

I love Baldwin's work, just love it. But this aspect bothers me.

Baldwin has included David’s misogynistic perspectives for the reader to deconstruct and critique them. Additional complexity is layered on with the stories of how David's company puts up with women, of how heterosexual men treat women. It is a brilliant critique of gender roles.