All About Books discussion

A thread for the discussion of Book 7 - Time Regained in Marcel Proust's novel In Search of Lost Time.

I won't get there in time!!! I'm finishing now La Prigioniera and will start in October La fuggitiva!!!
Hope I'll be able to read this with you then.

Well as far as I know I am the only one so far who has completed Book 6.

You really went through Book 6 quickly, Tom. That's impressive!

It'll take awhile before I'm here but I'll be ready by November. Are you starting now or waiting until then yourself?

I can wait. I think that after the plodding through Chapter 1 the rest seemed so easy that I blew through it. I have read the first few pages of Time Regained to get the lay of the land but I can certainly take a break til November.

I'm done with 6 but taking a break. November start would work well for me. I have some other books to catch up on - Dracula!

Joan wrote: "I'm done with 6 but taking a break. November start would work well for me. I have some other books to catch up on - Dracula!"

I read/listened to Dracula last year. I very much liked this audiobook.

"And the third occasion was when Gilberte said to me: "If you like, we might after all go out one afternoon and then we can go to Guermantes, taking the road by Meseglise, which is the nicest way," a sentence which upset the ideas of my childhood by informing me that the two "ways" were not irreconcilable as I had supposed."

Isn't that often the way? We have our formed opinions and see obstacles in our way, when there aren't necessarily any obstacles if only we look at things from a different perspective and with open eyes.
In all honesty, don't we all look for harmony together?

Good point Petra
And isn’t that one of the effects of great art - to lead us to see things from a new perspective, to recognize relationships between things we had never linked.

Petra wrote: ""And the third occasion was when Gilberte said to me: "If you like, we might after all go out one afternoon and then we can go to Guermantes, taking the road by Meseglise, which is the nicest way,"...by informing me that the two "ways" were not irreconcilable as I had supposed.""

Yes indeed! I red it just last night and I considered the very same thing!

I understood that as Marcel's childhood understanding of the two ways being expanded as an adult. In a larger sense, children would be likely to be this or that, but adults would be more aware of nuances among other things that would make the possibilities not (as) mutually exclusive.

Tom, I took it that until Gilberte made the statement, he still thought of the ways as exclusive (still thought as he had as a child). It was the statement that made him reconsider and change.
This sort of sudden realization happens. It's always an eye-opening experience. I took this to be one of those.

Have you ever listened to a sibling describe a childhood event and realized that they saw it completely differently from you - and accepted that their synopsis was as accurate as your own.

Yes. Memory is flaky. While it's all we have of the past, I have reservations on how much I should believe my own memories sometimes (often).
I like hearing other viewpoints of memories that I share with a friend or sibling. It usually brings some sort of insight.

I don't have my book in front of me, so can't be specific.

The quote from the Fashion industry was rather distasteful. First, it stated things about women wanting or needing to look pretty and dressed, then a comment about soldiers on the front wanting to provide their girls with more material things to keep them happy (this thought would keep them contented in the trenches!!??).
Proust seems to indicate that this was the first time the fashion industry pushed it's limits in many ways (styles, fabrics, advertisement). If so, that may have been the start of the Runway and the model industry. Does anyone know?

Also, Morel's story made me chuckle.

When the time came for dinner, the restaurants were full; and if, passing in the street, I saw a wretched soldier on leave, escaped for 6 days from the constant danger of death and about to return to the trenches, halt his gaze for a moment upon the illuminated windows, ....., and because it was with a philosophical shake of the head, without hatred, that on the eve of setting out again for the war the soldier would say to himself: "You'd never know there was a war on here."

This is so sad. It's difficult to think that people went about an opulent life while others suffered & died for the freedoms of those opulent lives. It must have taken some courage and stamina away from the "wretched soldier" to see such a discrepancy of lives & worlds.

I've finally got to the fashion bit. Interesting first mention of the war is how it affected womens' fashions.

I thought so, too, Tom. It seems to have been the turning point of "clothes as nice looking/utility" and "clothes as a way of preening/statement".

I did get a chuckle out of Marcel's description of Bloch's French victories - (view spoiler)[specifically how they came closer and closer to Paris (hide spoiler)].

I’ve just started. After nearly a month off, I’m afraid my mind has gotten flabby and I am struggling with the style. I just finished the excerpt from Goncourt’s Journal.

The intro to this edition says that translations of this volume vary more than the others.

Tom wrote: "I did get a chuckle out of Marcel's description of Bloch's French victories - [spoilers removed]."

Indeed!

At one point, Marcel makes a military reference to (view spoiler)[his time in the military and the pain from the recoil of a "76" when shooting it. Wasn't he invalided out? (hide spoiler)]

It is just before Charlus takes his leave of Marcel.

Plus ca change indeed
“But we read newspapers the same way we love, blindfold. We do not attempt to understand facts. We listen to the editors soothing words...We are beaten and happy because we think we are victorious, not beaten.”

Fake news has been around for a long time.

Can anyone explain:
“Why does the fear of dechristianizing France prevent us making broader concessions to Italy?”
It was said by Saint Loup when he was back from the front and due to return there.

Joan wrote: "Can anyone explain:
“Why does the fear of dechristianizing France prevent us making broader concessions to Italy?”
It was said by Saint Loup when he was back from the front and due to return there."

The only thing I can come up with is that Italy was actually in an alliance with Germany and Austro-Hungary, and France and its allies were trying to negotiate Italy's entry into the war on the Allied side.

Joan wrote: "Can anyone explain:
“Why does the fear of dechristianizing France prevent us making broader concessions to Italy?”
It was said by Saint Loup when he was back from the front and due to return there."

I've either missed this or am not there yet.
There's a similar passage, said by M. de Charlus:
"And then , have you noticed the wily fashion in which, ever since 1914, Norpoishas begun his articles to the neutrals? He starts by declaring that of course it is not for France to interfere in the politics of Italy (or of Romania or Bulgaria or whatever country it may be). These powers alone must decide, in full independence and with only their own national interests in view, whether or no it is their duty to abandon neutrality."

But the tone of this quote is more open to allowing the countries a choice of whether to ally themselves with Germany or England or whomever, or whether to remain neutral like Switzerland.

I've been busy with a large work project, so haven't had a lot of time for Proust. It's winding down, so I'm getting back into it. I spent some time this afternoon with Proust and really enjoyed it.

Found a great new word preterition.
The narrator used it while talking with Charlus. The narrator was hoping to gloss over the “modest position” of his family in Combay.
I don’t think I’ll be able to use it in conversation.

Silly of me I know, but I was sad to read (view spoiler)[ that Charlus said the church in Combray was destroyed. (hide spoiler)]

I think I may have reached the point of the book (In Search of Lost Time).

Petra wrote: "Joan wrote: "Can anyone explain:
“Why does the fear of dechristianizing France prevent us making broader concessions to Italy?”
It was said by Saint Loup when he was back from the front and due to ..."

That's the thing about Norpois (and which Marcel makes mention of in the book) he rarely says exactly what he means. To me, that passage means the opposite - France should interfere in Italy to bring them to the Allies's side.

Please check your translations for me,
after Charlus and Marcel part, Marcel wanders into a hotel, after eavesdropping on some of the guests he decides the it his time to go. Then Proust writes:
“Because certain lacustrine dreams are often associated with these, Scots were at a premium.”
lacustrine means associated with lakes - does your translation use lacustrine?
I sure don’t see the relevance of lakes.

My volume (the whole of In Search of Lost Time) uses lacustrine once, but in Swann's Way.

Joan, my version says:

"Clients could be heard inquiring of the patron whether he could introduce them to a footman, a choir-boy, a negro chauffeur. Every profession interested these old lunatics, every branch of the armed forces, every one of the allied nations. Some asked particularly for Canadians, influenced perhaps unconsciously by the charm of an accent so slight that one does not know whether it comes from the France of the past or from England. The Scots too, because of their kilts and because dreams of a landscape with lakes were often associated with these desires, were at a premium. And as every form of madness is, if not in every case aggravated by circumstances, at least imprinted by them with particular characteristics, an old man in whom curiosity of every kind had no doubt been satisfied was asking insistently to be introduced to a disabled soldier."

It seems that Proust is saying that every fetish can be satisfied in this establishment.

I laughed at the mention of Canadians. LOL! (I'm in Canada)

I’m still wondering why he associated these desires with Lakes - very weird.

My guess is that France doesn't have much in the way of lakes, or that the grass is greener (and the lakes bigger) in Scotland.

HaHa, I was trying to turn it into some deep Freudian fetish. I guess sometimes a lake is just a lake.

LOL! Yeah, I agree with Tom. Or maybe there was an inside joke in France at that time regarding Canadians and Scotsmen?

Plus it is the Ould Alliance, so there's a bit of history there.

By the way, I'm in good but really dense part of the book. It is slow going but rewarding.

Thanks for giving me hope Tom, the Charlus section is like a Guermantes party - it drags on and on.

Charlus in the (male) brothel, Joan? Or another Charlus section? I am enjoying that brothel section.
I find that Paris must be a small town in terms of people meeting people. Marcel wanders the streets and stops at an unknown, nameless building to warm up and finds himself in a brothel where Charlus is just then tied up in a room. What a small world! LOL!

Joan wrote: "HaHa, I was trying to turn it into some deep Freudian fetish. I guess sometimes a lake is just a lake."

LOL!!!!!!

Petra wrote: "Charlus in the (male) brothel, Joan? Or another Charlus section? I am enjoying that brothel section.
I find that Paris must be a small town in terms of people meeting people. Marcel wanders the st..."

It looked like Perugia to me!!

Joan wrote: "Thanks for giving me hope Tom, the Charlus section is like a Guermantes party - it drags on and on."

Agreed. Next to Marcel, he seems to be the main character in Time Regained.

File under Bizarre Statements by Proust:
“...as inexplicable as the fondness some men show...for women who wear pince-nez, or for women who ride?”

Joan wrote: "File under Bizarre Statements by Proust:
“...as inexplicable as the fondness some men show...for women who wear pince-nez, or for women who ride?”"

Bizarre it may be, but I think it's true. I think he's commenting about how specific some attractions can be.

For some reason I keep seeing Guardian articles about Proust in my webpage feed. (Not complaining - just think it's cool that the Guardian is staying on top of things.)

Not surprising but surprising to me is that Proust wrote like he talked.

That is one of the techniques I enjoy - he writes a about a sensation or makes an analogy that at first seems strange but then I realize he has hit the nail on the head precisely.
I think when he was writing, women were just starting to ride astride rather than sidesaddle— it was quite controversial, considered by some to be provocative.

Yes, I think he is a master of metaphor and analogy especially since he brings a wide range of subjects. The article I linked mentions one where he described grief using the language of chemistry.

Joan wrote: "File under Bizarre Statements by Proust:
“...as inexplicable as the fondness some men show...for women who wear pince-nez, or for women who ride?”"

I like the sentence after the one quoted:
"Who can say to what long-lived and unconscious dream is linked the desire that never fails to re-awaken at the sight of a woman on horseback, an unconscious dream as mysterious as is, for example, for a man who has suffered all his life from asthma, the influence of a certain town, in appearance no different from any other town, in which for the first time he breathes freely?"

What he's saying, I think, is that something profound/meaningful to the individual is remembered/awakened at the sight of something associated with it. This association may not be logical or seen by others but it will always be special/poignant to that individual.
So the woman on horseback image may not be what is being remembered but something that was experienced by the individual at the moment they saw a woman on horseback makes all other women on horseback special. So others see a fetish or an obsession, while the individual is brought back to something special, personal and private.

It means that people cannot know others and that we shouldn't make assumptions on what we see.
The problem is, of course, that the person who is stimulated by the woman on horseback may also not be consciously aware of the incident that makes this image so important to them. Many people keep things hidden even from themselves.