The History Book Club discussion
This topic is about
Hanns and Rudolf
THE SECOND WORLD WAR
>
WE ARE OPEN - WEEK NINE - HANNS AND RUDOLF - July 7th - July 14th - Chapter(s) Sixteen and Seventeen: 16: Hanns and Rudolf, Gottrupel, Germany, 1946 and 17: Hanns and Rudolf, Belsen and Nuremberg, Germany, 1946 - (240 - 274) - No Spoilers, Please
message 2:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 05, 2014 08:01PM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion. Thought that I would add that.
message 3:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 06, 2014 07:04AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
Chapter Sixteen - 16: Hanns and Rudolf, Gottrupel, Germany, 1946
Chapter Sixteen is where things get a little sticky for Hanns in terms of justice and revenge.
The author relates:
"As soon as Hanns had heard Hedwig Hoess's confession, he rushed over to Captain Cross and the two quickly agreed on a plan. They should carry out the arrest under the cover of darkness, and as soon as possible.
Over the next hour the men of Field Security Section 92 were assembled and briefed on the operation. Many of them were German Jews like Hanns, from the Pioneer Corps - men who had been driven out of their country and who had lost family members in Auschwitz. There were also English-born soldiers from Jewish families, similarly enraged, men such as Bernard Clarke, from the south coast and Karl "Blitz" Abrahams from Liverpool.
Rifles were checked and supplies loaded into the trucks: blankets, a field radio, cartons of extra ammunition. A box of axe handles were stashed into the back of one of the vehicles.
Inside the vehicles twenty-five men sat nervously on benches, fidgeting with their gear. Hanns knew that they all wanted to be "in on the kill"."
The hunt and capture of Hoess had begun and the beatings and revenge began too.
Chapter Seventeen - 17: Hanns and Rudolf, Belsen and Nuremberg, Germany, 1946
The heavy drinking begins. Paul meets up with Hanns and they describe the previous night as heavy drinking and throwing shoes down stairs. Hanns learns the next day that it is time for him to return home.
He received his demobilization papers, a new dark blue suit and a few days later his naturalization papers making him a British citizen after six and a half years in the British Army.
The Nuremberg Trials begin, Judge Jackson presides, Hoess should have been tried in Poland but was used as leverage and transferred. Whitney Harris interrogated him. Rudolf's own words were used against him. Harris only selected certain parts of what Hoess stated. Of course, Hoess was given no legal counsel or interpreter and signed the confession as is. He was then interviewed - again by two Jewish doctors - one a psychologist and the other a psychiatrist.
Rudolf testified and his testimony was utilized to implicate the remainder.
After being utilized in this way - he was then sent back to Poland where he was beaten again. He wrote letters to Hedwig and was visited by Jan Sehn who encouraged him to write. He was tried again in Poland this time He wrote loving letters to his wife and his children. He was hung and buried in an unmarked grave.
message 4:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 05, 2014 08:04PM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
message 5:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 06, 2014 07:18AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
These chapters present many contradictions in both men that we have come to know in the pages of the book Hanns and Rudolf.
Let us discuss some of these contradictions in both men who are the protagonists in this book as well as each other's adversaries in many ways.
We see what both men did and why they did it and what they received in compensation. One man went on to live a normal productive life while the other was hung for his role as Kommandant of Auschwitz and ended up in an unmarked grave.
What are your thoughts in retrospect?
In chapter 16, we see Hanns' uncanny hunter's instinct and hunger in pursuing cold cases, solving them, and wrapping them up. He seemed to understand which leads to follow, the necessity of relentless, thorough pursuit, and the right timing and method of wrapping things up and bringing in the hunted... Fascinating study to watch...
Rudolf's explanation for his actions (page 255) is stunning and frightening...makes one ponder whether the right combination of factors, circumstances, and personalities could bring this to pass again...Did he/the Nazi leadership really believe that Jewish people were soulless subhumans?
Psychiatrist Leon Goldensohn perhaps described Rudolf the most succinctly at the end of page 256:"...the amoral psychopath...a dearth of parental love...enabled (him) to commit unprecedented inhumanities in a framework of apparent social and political respectability."
Additionally, Rudolf's necessity of receiving affirmation and acceptance in his work permitted him to carry out the most inhumane acts while turning his attention to the approval he would receive rather than the actual tasks he was carrying out. He was blind to what he was doing as he focused on the approval it would bring him.
Page 268: "He admitted...that on one night a trainload of Gypsies and Jews was taken on arrival and thrown into a large pit where they were burned alive. Forty thousand people had been killed this way."Nothing else to say...execution was a punishment too compassionate for him to experience...
Lewis wrote: "Rudolf's explanation for his actions (page 255) is stunning and frightening...makes one ponder whether the right combination of factors, circumstances, and personalities could bring this to pass ag..."Sadly, it has happened in varying degrees since then. Rwanda, the Balkans, the Soviet Union. The list could be endless depending on how small a scale one cared to go. Religious, racial, political, economic. So many ways to despise people. Hate is hate, regardless of the extent one goes to act on it.
Lewis wrote: "Page 268: "He admitted...that on one night a trainload of Gypsies and Jews was taken on arrival and thrown into a large pit where they were burned alive. Forty thousand people had been killed this ..."Well said.
The first thing that struck me in these chapters is how matter-of-factly Rudolf came across in his interrogations and psychological examinations. Not prideful, not cowering. Just as if the jig was up and he got caught shoplifting. Somehow I expected a more emotional response.As far as Hanns in his capture of Rudolf, he seemed to walk a very fine line (and nearly wiping it out) between performing his duty and exacting a measure of revenge. I also found it interesting how he just seemed to leave it all behind so quickly when he was discharged an vowed never to return to Germany. I'm curious what he would say about it if Thomas would have been able to get him to talk about it.
Mod
Yes, he was the bloodhound (smile) - much more than Morgen.
Mod
If you ever watch the documentary Auschwitz: The Final Solution and listen to some of the interviews - it does give you pause.
message 15:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 06, 2014 09:58PM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
"...the amoral psychopath...a dearth of parental love...enabled (him) to commit unprecedented inhume..."
Lewis - I was not too sure about the reports of the psychologist and psychiatrist after the fact and under the circumstances and because of the fact that he was able to give and receive love from his children at the very least so I did not view him as an empty vessel in one sphere of his life and he did care what became of them - even more so than himself. I always thought he sought more for a home and a way of life to support his family and children and really had no empathy whatsoever for the Jewish people. Remember his own uncle had divided the personal property of his parents and basically cheated his nephew out of any of the proceeds so he had to fend for himself.
I also wondered if these psychological evaluations were done on the other Nazis being tried at Nuremberg. They might have been.
And this is not to say that Rudolf had any empathy whatsoever for the people he exterminated because it was clearly true - he did not.
Mod
Your point of view is understood by many - sort of the eye for an eye response - but revenge never brought any of these people back. And of course he should have been imprisoned for life at the very least.
Mod
You make a sad but excellent assessment about hate. It comes in all sizes and in all nationalities and unfortunately knows no bounds.
Mod
We probably will never know Brian.
Mod
Another thing that bothered me is once Rudolf Hoess was hung - why did they not at that point turn his body back to his family for burial - They had already taken his life and had hung him so why the unmarked grave? Was that the final revenge? Was that part of the sentencing?
What are your thoughts on the above?
Dr. Gilbert mentions schizoid, so I wanted to look it up. Here are some symptoms:1. Emotional coldness, detachment or reduced affect.
2. Limited capacity to express either positive or negative emotions towards others.
3. Consistent preference for solitary activities.
4. Very few, if any, close friends or relationships, and a lack of desire for such.
5. Indifference to either praise or criticism.
6. Little interest in having sexual experiences with another person (taking into account age).
7. Taking pleasure in few, if any, activities.
8. Indifference to social norms and conventions.
9. Preoccupation with fantasy and introspection.
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid...)
Mod
Also I don't think he was any more schizoid that the guards who were interviewed by Laurence Rees for the Auschwitz documentary who are all free and alive. Their attitudes mirrored Hoess's - sad, chilling and horrifying as they might be to us.
But thank you also for digging further on Gilbert's diagnosis.
Bentley wrote: "Discussion Question:Another thing that bothered me is once Rudolf Hoess was hung - why did they not at that point turn his body back to his family for burial - They had already taken his life and..."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is common with traitors and enemies of the state. Bin Laden being a recent example. I also think several of the guilty at Nuremburg were buried in unmarked graves. This was probably to avoid desecrations of the corpse by those looking for retribution.
message 23:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 07, 2014 10:53AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/22/wor...
Yes. I forgot about that aspect. Just imagine the circus if Hitler's grave was ever located.
Chapter 17 was especially chilling I thought, "...what finally persuaded Rudolf was a desire to set the record straight, to make meaningful all that he had done, and to challenge the lies and cowardice displayed by his former colleagues..." (p. 265)I realize that this is conjecture on Hardings' part, but Rudolf seemed to set about the task of recording his memoirs with no remorse and the idea that he was proud of his accomplishments.
Mod
Unbelievable and awful at the same time.
message 27:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 07, 2014 06:31PM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
I think it was just matter of fact without any fanfare and zero emotion because I think he was just trying to remain centered and/or not overwhelmed with his situation or filled with despair over his situation. I think he did express remorse when he was with his priest and I guess at the end of the day it was between him and his god.
I know this sounds weird but I think I can understand his feelings - I do not condone them - but I can understand his dilemma.
We all know that none of us could be proud of his accomplishments or understand them as being anything but despicable actions - but he lived during different times, was a Nazi and part of the SS and his generation had many members - many still living guards who professed similar ideas and in a much worse way.
Like every book on the Holocaust that I have ever read - there is a pervasive sadness about all of the innocent and destroyed lives and souls - so much human energy cast aside so carelessly and so without any care at all. They were not even perceived as being the valuable human beings they were and that is why I end my reading of every Holocaust book with overwhelming gloom. Why? Why would anybody think that what they did was right?
It really is the darkest period in history.
The fact that Rudolf bothered to write and bothered to set the record straight is still an admirable act even if it was coming from Rudolf Hoess. It established a new story of what actually happened and set the record straight for history - despite all of the memoir's misgivings, exaggerations, omissions, purposeful obfuscations - it still is a profound memoir which historians admittedly state that they are fortunate was written. It established the record of the concentration camps and the genesis of the Final Solution and who was responsible.
There are many who will still want to throw down the gauntlet and vent about this or that but at the end of the day - this human destruction was not caused by a psychopath, a sociopath, a serial killer or a group of them, some crazed cult or bizarre gang nor was it caused by an act of God like a tsunami or a tornado. These acts were perpetrated by normal, sane Germans who had an ax to grind and wanted to get rid of a race which they deemed unworthy or enemies of the state of Germany. And they thought that exterminating the entire lot was a brilliant idea. And that is what is so dangerous and so chilling and scares me because this is the sort of thing that could happen again if we are not vigilant.
And that is why reading and discussing this book was a good idea despite the pain we read about and great holes that are left in everyone's heart over the fate of the discarded victims.
Well written, Bentley, thank you.It is sad, chilling, and fascinating to learn about. I think there is something about human nature, an ugly twist of a "us" mentality vs. "them/Jews" don't belong...this thought it not fully articulated at the moment, but you see it throughout history and today.
message 29:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Jul 08, 2014 06:04AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
Did the British choose the team of "breakers' wisely or did they in fact choose the team based upon ethnicity and religious background? Was that the right thing to do in retrospect?
How did you feel about Hanns finally getting his naturalization papers making him a British citizen right after the situation with Rudolf Hoess. Was there a connection or was the timing just a coincidence?
Both Hanns and Paul turned to some heavy drinking in the last chapter - what were the reasons for the drinking or was it just a way to finally let loose?
Does anybody know if the practice is the same - that when you get out of the British military service - do they still give you a new dark blue suit? I thought that was a nice touch but never knew of the practice and wondered if it was simply done during war time.
What were your impressions of the Nuremberg Trials and the part that Rudolf Hoess played?
Do you think that Rudolf Hoess was treated legally as he should have been? Do you think that he should have been sent back to Poland after they reneged initially.
How did you feel about the psychologist and the psychiatrist's reports? Why do you think these were done?
There is a lot to talk about in these chapters. Feel free to talk about any element in the chapters or anything else in the book that you feel you forgot to bring up.
On page 256 I found it interesting that the psychiatrist says "his character is that of an amoral psychopath, which in itself and correlated with his personal development history, indicates a dearth of parental love and unconscious hostility toward the father." This implies to me that he discussed his youthful feelings of abandonment and alienation with Goldensohn. I think this paragraph, including the pull of the Nazi party in light of his parents failures, gives us Rudolf's character in a nutshell. But was it alone enough to give rise to his sociopathy?
"Both Hanns and Paul turned to some heavy drinking in the last chapter - what were the reasons for the drinking or was it just a way to finally let loose?"I get the feeling that their drinking(as most drinking is)was a form of self medicating. These guys had been through a lot. I cannot imagine the details that were given(repeatedly) during the Nuremberg trials. Horrific.
I would never want to speak of it again, had I been there.
I was smiling while I was reading that both brothers had been mischievous (as they were as children)with the officer's shoes. pg 246
Brian wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Discussion Question:Another thing that bothered me is once Rudolf Hoess was hung - why did they not at that point turn his body back to his family for burial - They had already ta..."
I wonder if his family would have wanted his body. Hedwig and the children were living in poverty at the time, so they probably would not have been able to give him what they would have considered a decent funeral/burial.
After finishing this book, I feel as if I have been in a very dark place...I think I need some "light" reading...say, the Encyclopedia Britannica or War and Peace...
Tomi wrote: "After finishing this book, I feel as if I have been in a very dark place...I think I need some "light" reading...say, the Encyclopedia Britannica or War and Peace...":) Good one.
Tomi wrote: "After finishing this book, I feel as if I have been in a very dark place...I think I need some "light" reading...say, the Encyclopedia Britannica or War and Peace..."LOL. I feel the same.
And Tomi, you wonder if Hedwig didn't even want the body. She has stopped writing to him; I get a sense she is cutting him off completely.
Bryan wrote: "And Tomi, you wonder if Hedwig didn't even want the body. She has stopped writing to him; I get a sense she is cutting him off completely."His grandson certainly didn't care for him! I wonder where he learned that...did Rudolf's children display any concern for their father after his death? And what kind of atmosphere toward the Holocaust was found in their households?
I was reading about the post-war trials and executions elsewhere; most of the Nazi war criminals were just as cold as Rudolf. They were "just following orders, doing what had to be done, working for the good of Germany." None seemed to think they had done anything wrong; none showed true remorse. And I was amazed at how many of them repeated the sentiment about doing good for Germany in their final words. They almost all seemed to believe that God was going to welcome them and reward them for what they had done. Scary thought...
Bryan wrote: "And Tomi, you wonder if Hedwig didn't even want the body. She has stopped writing to him; I get a sense she is cutting him off completely."Perhaps some self-preservation on her part for the children and herself?
Kathy wrote: "Bryan wrote: "And Tomi, you wonder if Hedwig didn't even want the body. She has stopped writing to him; I get a sense she is cutting him off completely."Perhaps some self-preservation on her par..."
We really don't know much about her...but somehow I don't see her as a very motherly type! But certainly self-preservation for herself...
Agree, I think that is a good reason to stay away.
Brian wrote: "The first thing that struck me in these chapters is how matter-of-factly Rudolf came across in his interrogations and psychological examinations. Not prideful, not cowering. Just as if the jig was ..."I wasn't surprised that Rudolf was so matter-of-fact through the examinations and all of the interrogations. That seemed to be his way when it concerned his military work, for the most part. We saw some hint of "humanism" such as when he was ordered to shoot his "friend" for allowing a prisoner to escape, but outside of that, he seemed to make a distinction between his home life and what he considered work. He was able to distance his feelings and carry on because it was what he was ordered to do. I think a part of him really thought that he did nothing wrong, he was just carrying out orders.
I agree with others that he did not seem to show remorse, but he did seem to show regret. No remorse for all of the people that died at Auschwitz, but regret for the outcome of his own family, the distance and destruction that it caused. You see this in the letters he would write to Hedwig.
I think the drinking and the prank with the shoes were a way for them to escape for a while and feel/act in a way that had been normal for them before. When you've been through something emotionally, mentally and physically draining, you just want "normal" again. As for Hedwig, I think she started distancing herself when she figured out what was going on at Auschwitz. She did leave with him, and her brother did help him. I wonder if she thought she had the option to leave him? I know from my family that divorce was still considered unacceptable back then, but I think she had grounds. I wonder if she even opened his letters.
Robyn wrote: "I think the drinking and the prank with the shoes were a way for them to escape for a while and feel/act in a way that had been normal for them before. When you've been through something emotionall..."I had the same thought about Hedwig and the letters. I also wonder what she was telling the children.
Thanks Teri. You wonder if Rudolf felt regret in what it did to his family.
Interesting, Robyn and Cary; I do wonder if she left them unopened.
I was wondering if Hedwig even received the letters? In the aftermath of war, often communication is not the best. So I too would be curious to know if she even knew he was writing to her or if she read the letters.I was also curious about the psychiatrist reports. I didn't know they had psychiatrists come in and evaluate the Nazi prisoners. It makes sense that they did. I wonder how they chose the psychiatrists?
Good question for the author, Whitney. I'm not sure.Good point about letter traffic; things were pretty chaotic at this point.
Bentley wrote: "I thought that would be the case as well Brian but then I found an article talking about the Hess grave. Hess had received a sentence of life imprisonment - the article does state it was unusual f..."When Eichmann was caught, he was tried, hanged, and his body cremated. His ashes were scattered in the Mediterranean under the cover of darkness to avoid a circus. The main reason for this treatment was to avoid creating a potential memorial for Nazi sympathizers.
What stood out for me in the final chapters was the apparent importance of Rudolf's capture. It seems that he was the first to confess to what took place in the camps. Once that was out in the open, others started talking as well.So, we can be thankful for Hanns' persistence in tracking Rudolf down.
For the week of July 7th - July 13th, we are reading Chapters Sixteen and Seventeen of Hanns and Rudolf..
The ninth week's reading assignment is:
Week Nine - July 7th - July 13th
16: Hanns and Rudolf, Gottrupel, Germany, 1946 and 17: Hanns and Rudolf, Belsen and Nuremberg, Germany, 1946
(240 - 274)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on May 12th.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on July 7th.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Jerome, Kathy and Libby.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Introduction Thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Table of Contents and Syllabus
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Q&A with Thomas Harding (the author):
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Bibliography
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Directions on how to participate in a book offer and how to follow the t's and c's - Hanns and Rudolf - What Do I Do Next?
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...