The Catholic Book Club discussion

6. Hitler’s visit to Breslau took place as described in the novel. Archbishop Sapieha, who ordains Adam in the novel, later protected and ordained Karol Wojtyla. What do you think of real historical figures appearing in fiction?

In chapter 1 there is a reference to Fritz Haber as an old student of Max's maternal grandfather. Haber was the 1918 Nobel Prize for Chemistry. There is a mention too of the suicide of Haber's first wife (Clara Immerwahr). Max's mother says she did it nauseated by her husband's part in chemical war. In fact, her suicide (she fired her husband's revolver on her chest) took place just before Haber left for the eastern front, to test a chlorine attack against the Russians, but the reason is not known with certainty.

In his article The sin of the scientist, included in his collection The stars in their courses, Isaac Asimov considers Fritz Haber as the worst scientist of the twentieth century, because he investigated the use of poison gases in war. In a post with the same title in my blog I also mentioned him:
http://populscience.blogspot.com/2015...

The case of Ratheneau is interesting, because he was one of the few millionaires, that it was jew. On contrary the Jews are not hatred by being wealthy but also for his presencein the liberal professions and for his success. The hatred of the german people was pure envy, unfortunatelly this speech was bought :-(.

Back to the more general question, I don't see how you can write a historical novel without at least brief appearances by the people who were important during that time period. As long as you're not putting improbable thoughts into their minds, this doesn't seem problematic to me.

Jill wrote: "Back to the more general question, I don't see how you can write a historical novel without at least brief appearances by the people who were important during that time period. As long as you're no..."

I agree with Jill. I think that in a historical fiction it was a good advice to put a list with all characters (this is called Dramatis Personae) with the fiction characters, and the historical characters. It is posible a few lines describing the most relevant events of the historical characters.

Jill wrote: "Back to the more general question, I don't see how you can write a historical novel without at least brief appearances by the people who were important during that time period...."

We can ask why a historical novel such as "War and Peace" is great, while others are not. I think three rules must be followed:

1. The main characters must be fictional.
2. The real historical figures must be secondary.
3. The real historical figures must do in the novel exactly the same as they did in real life.

You can see that "War and peace" complies with all three rules. I confess that in my own historical novels, I haven't always complied with them (:-) If you remember my "Jacob´s ladder," which to a certain extent can be considered a historical novel, you'll see why.

On the other hand, when a real historical figure is warped in a historical novel, so that it adapts to the author's ideology, I am nauseated.

Manuel wrote: "Jill wrote: "Back to the more general question, I don't see how you can write a historical novel without at least brief appearances by the people who were important during that time period...."

We..."

Well i totally agree, but i said it to get easy the labor of the reader for having easier the reading. The purpose is that he did not confuse the real character with the fictional character. You and me Mr. Alfonseca know who is Rathenau biut it is posible that not all readers could know it, and more of this age where the education is really poor, and the people do not care the culture. My edtion o Dr. Zhivago, that my uncle gave to my father there are a list with all characters, which it is necessary because there a lot of characters and the readers can lose with these names, and the same i said about Leo Tolstoi, and Vassili Grossman. With this i want to say that my advice it is not only good for diference thefictional and the real characters, also to the reader was not confused with the characters, who appears in the story, especially when there are a lot of characters. In the Detection Novels there also Dramatis Personae.

Fonch wrote: "You and me Mr. Alfonseca know who is Rathenau but it is posible that not all readers know it..."

I do agree that a list of real characters at the end of the novel can be a help. In fact, in my historical novels I usually add an epilogue where I discuss what really happened and what didn't.

But in this novel we are discussing, the situation is somewhat different. All the real historical figures appear in the text only when they are mentioned by others, never as actual characters. I'd say that this book, rather than a historical novel, is a novel that gives us the flavor of the epoch, that makes us see how people lived at that time and in that place, but it isn't historical in the strictest sense. In fact, I think this restriction also applies to the other novel I have mentioned in these threads, Brideshead revisited, so similar to this one.

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "You and me Mr. Alfonseca know who is Rathenau but it is posible that not all readers know it..."

I do agree that a list of real characters at the end of the novel can be a help. In f..."

I do not think that Lucy Beckett knew it. But i would like to know that Postcard from the Volcano could be influenced by a Veil of Veronika of the catholic german writer Gertrud von Lefort (perhaps in United States was more well known for being the author of the novel "The Song At The Scaffold", which inspired Dialogues des carmélites by Georges Bernanos, about the martyrs of a nuns in Compiegne about the French Revolution). Gertrud von Lefort lived around 80 years, and she was candidate to the Nobel Prize. She was supported by the Noble Prize Herman Hesse, that he admired her novels and her poetry. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...#

Fonch wrote: "About Brideshead Revisited. I do not think that Lucy Beckett knew it..."

Why do you think that Beckett hadn't read Brideshead Revisited? Do you have any information about it?

Manuel wrote: "Jill wrote: "Back to the more general question, I don't see how you can write a historical novel without at least brief appearances by the people who were important during that time period...."

We..."

So you would draw a distinction between historical fiction and fiction that is merely set in a historical past? I've never really thought of it in that way before. Perhaps the distinction is that in historical fiction, part of the purpose of the novel is to show the history, to make it real?

I agree with your first two rules, but am not sure about the third. In Half Blood Blues, Esi Edugyan puts Louis Armstrong in Paris at the beginning of WWII. Some of the criticism of this beautiful book complained that historically we know exactly where Armstrong was in May 1940 and he wasn't in Paris. So perhaps we should qualify your third rule with an exception for poetic license? Of course, Half Blood Blues is not War and Peace.

John wrote: "So you would draw a distinction between historical fiction and fiction that is merely set in a historical past? I've never really thought of it in that way before. Perhaps the distinction is that in historical fiction, part of the purpose of the novel is to show the history, to make it real?"

I agree that the distinction is fuzzy. In fact, the range of historical novels could even be divided into more sub-genres. Biographical novels would be one, where a single historical figure is the main character, but not everything is true to history.

John wrote: "I agree with your first two rules, but am not sure about the third..."

Yes, the third rule is the easiest to break. I've done it, when I was not sure what a real character was doing at that time (:-) You are right, poetic license must be taken into account. What I cannot stand is changing the character of the characters, so to speak, adapting them to the current way of thinking, or making them into moral monsters, because the author of the novel thinks that change would be useful in the novel.

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "About Brideshead Revisited. I do not think that Lucy Beckett knew it..."

Why do you think that Beckett hadn't read Brideshead Revisited? Do you have any information about it?"
Oh comitted a mistake. I wanted to say not about Brideshead Revisited, but also the novels of the German writer Gretrud von Lefort, of course that Lucy Beckett has read "Brideshead Revisited" which is the jewell of the catholic fiction in England.

Archbishop Sapieha, who ordains Adam, a few years later ordained Karol Wojtyla (:-) This is the nearest appearance of a real person as a character in the novel that I have found.

Manuel wrote: "Archbishop Sapieha, who ordains Adam, a few years later ordained Karol Wojtyla (:-) This is the nearest appearance of a real person as a character in the novel that I have found."

It is totally truth Sapieha was the preceptor and master of Karold Wojtyla, and he was ordered during the second world war.

Fonch wrote: "It is totally truth Sapieha was the preceptor and master of Karold Wojtyla, and he was ordered during the second world war. "

Not exactly. Karol Wojtyla was ordained by Sapieha on November 1st 1946, after the war had finished. Adam Zapolsky is ordained on November 1st 1932. Obviously Beckett chose the date intentionally.

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "It is totally truth Sapieha was the preceptor and master of Karold Wojtyla, and he was ordered during the second world war. "

Not exactly. Karol Wojtyla was ordained by Sapieha on No..."

Excuseme i mistake for one year, with all Sapieha hid Karold Wojtyla, and he wore priest clothes for a period of time. I agree Hitler will rise to the power in 1933. Beckett did not choose a casual date.

Manuel wrote: "
What I cannot stand is changing the character of the characters, so to speak, adapting them to the current way of thinking, or making them into moral monsters, because the author of the novel thinks that change would be useful in the novel."

I agree with that. That's really a kind of libel, isn't it.

John wrote: "I agree with that. That's really a kind of libel, isn't it. "

Exactly. But if someone writes a libellous historic novel about someone who lived five centuries ago, who's going to sue? I have seen cases like this, and both the author and the book are famous.

Manuel wrote: "Archbishop Sapieha, who ordains Adam, a few years later ordained Karol Wojtyla (:-) This is the nearest appearance of a real person as a character in the novel that I have found."

Hitler as well. Max attended the speech by Hitler in Breslau shortly before going to Adam's ordination.

John wrote: "Hitler as well. Max attended the speech by Hitler in Breslau shortly before going to Adam's ordination."

True.

Manuel wrote: "John wrote: "I agree with that. That's really a kind of libel, isn't it. "

Exactly. But if someone writes a libellous historic novel about someone who lived five centuries ago, who's going to sue?..."

Yes Ken Follet i am suffering reading "A Column of Fire" :-(.

John wrote: "Manuel wrote: "Archbishop Sapieha, who ordains Adam, a few years later ordained Karol Wojtyla (:-) This is the nearest appearance of a real person as a character in the novel that I have found."

H..."
One of the characteristic of the totalitarian regimes it was the eploy of the mass, and using them as a weapon. For me it is not a surprise that the people attended to the Hitler speechs although they were oppositte to him.