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Hanns and Rudolf
THE SECOND WORLD WAR
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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK TEN - HANNS AND RUDOLF - July 15th - July 20th - Epilogue and Postscript and Notes and Family Trees - (275 - 329) - No Spoilers, Please
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However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion. Thought that I would add that.
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Epilogue
This short piece is quite enlightening and picks up the story where it left off and tells us what became of the protagonists' families and of Hanns himself. The epilogue is quite revealing about Hanns and his feelings about Germany and the war.
Postscript
The postscript is also quite enlightening and discusses the visit to Auschwitz with Ranier Hoess and his mother.
Notes
We should go through the notes and see if there are other details that we should discuss. Please feel free to discuss any of these topics.
Family Trees
Please take a look and review and discuss any elements of the family trees.
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This was a key segment of the book. How did you feel when you found out what had happened to Rudolf Hoess's family and how they were treated after the war?
What about Hanns and his trajectory in life?
What were your thoughts when you read the following?:
"When in his eighties, Hanns was invited by the museum established at the old site of the Belsen concentration camp to receive an award for his wartime efforts, he declined, keeping his oath that he would never return. And in this way - because of his silence, and because of his hate - Hann's efforts went unacknowledged."
Hanns was filled with hate - "I would not talk to children about it because they should not be brought up to hate. I, however, am full of hatred."
Thoughout the book, I saw many similarities between Rudolf and Hanns though there were striking and massive differences. In some respects Rudolf showed more indifference than hate while Hanns years later was still eaten up by it. Hate has never solved anything and how did hate hurt Hanns?
Hanns thought that the Russians were more efficient - when they heard such stories they just found the accused and shot them - He said, "We could not do it. We did not do it". How does that differ from the Germans believing that the Jewish people were the enemies of the state and shooting them? Or does it? Was Hanns right or wrong or had his hatred changed him?
We end this book with great sadness when we contemplate what happened to so many innocent souls, the political prisoners and the religious orders/men and women who were killed, the disabled and the mentally challenged, the Hungarians, the Poles, they gypsies and the millions of Jewish people (men, women, children) - many who were so talented and capable. Such a loss of talent and wonderful world wide contributions - all of these folks could have made but never had the chance.
I would agree that Rudolf was ruled by indifference rather than hate. Antisemitism was a fact of life in Germany for centuries (and of course in other parts of Europe as well) but I think that the emotion that was elicited was more one of disgust and disdain. Jews were considered sub-human and were unworthy to live. So they were to be exterminated in a disinterested manner, not necessarily fueled by hate but just disregard. As one throws away a rotted vegetable, we feel rather disgusted by that vegetable....this is analogous with the Jews.....get rid of them because they are disgusting.
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And I think you add rabid nationalism where Jews were seen as "enemies of the state" that had to be permanently vanquished.
The last chapters/sections were very geared to trying to understand but. Hanns was a man who did what he did and left what he could of the horrors behind. He omitted getting some recognitions because he left it behind him and didn't want to go to those places again. He, it seems, wallowed in his adopted English nationality (I wonder if he traveled at all - USA - Israel?)
RH seemed to be a basket case in need of recognition and following that need he followed the Nazi line and leadership. In the end he saw a priest and maybe didn't see the point of lying. It seems that he didn't lie through his progress so he gave true info to the interrogators - and left alone he complied to give more info to either organize his thinking or to explain his position to posterity - including his kids.
In the end the real real importance seems to be that RH gave us a real explanation and testimony on the mechanics of the extermination part of the "final solution"
Just a reminder to be sure and visit the link below when you have completed this week's reading assignment. We are anxious to see your overall opinion of this book. Thank you.BOOK AS A WHOLE
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Thanks, Vince, your last sentence resonated with me. I agree 100%, Rudolf played an important role in the trials of the Nazi criminals because of his Final Solution description. He was a key witness and his detachment made the testimony possible.
Bryan wrote: "Thanks, Vince, your last sentence resonated with me. I agree 100%, Rudolf played an important role in the trials of the Nazi criminals because of his Final Solution description. He was a key witn..."As opposed to Goering who, when questioned by Sir David Maxwell, stated that neither he nor Hitler knew about the death camps or the "final solution".
In the Epilogue (p. 278-279) Hanns describes his feelings for Germany. A couple of lines that hit me as especially telling, "The war, for him, was never a topic for discussion. 'I would not talk to children about it because they should not be brought up to hate. I, however, am full of hatred.'"Through all that Hanns had seen and been a part of, he looks to the future to protect the children.
It would have been so easy for Hanns to instill hatred for the Germans in his children. I feel it took extreme control on his part to internalize that anger and hatred and never speak of it. His experiences were beyond our comprehension and to compartmentalize it took great will power.
Jill wrote: "It would have been so easy for Hanns to instill hatred for the Germans in his children. I feel it took extreme control on his part to internalize that anger and hatred and never speak of it. His ex..."I thought it was interesting that he never expresses that anger in his life, with the exception of never returning to Germany. He easily could have withdrawn from life in general, but he remains fun loving and a fixture of his community.
The postscript was quite interesting. His meeting with Rudolf's grandson Rainer and mother at Auschwitz, also being interested in Hanns and Rudolf, was very moving. I actually surprised that Hanns had Rudolf's memoirs and had frequently read it. How much richer this volume could have been had Thomas been able to get Hanns' input. Avoid the temptation to skip the notes. they are quite informative and give a little more perspective in some areas, such as Simon's death.
Brian, I agree. Read the notes if you haven't yet.
It's been a little over a week since I finished the book. I'm still horrified by what happened and I agree with everyone that we need to continue to study and teach about the holocaust and do everything possible to ensure that this sort of thing never happens again. When I was in the middle of the book I wondered if Hanns putting Anne off on getting engages was because he didn't really love her like that. After reflection, I think it was more that he wasn't really thinking about a future. Maybe as he got closer to the end of the war for him, he was ready to move forward. I think she was an incredibly patient person. Seems like he was worth waiting for :)
What does everyone else think about Hanns and Anne's relationship?
As an aside, I am humbled by the greatest generation. Would today's young folk be able to demonstrate the same sacrifice and commitment? I hope so, but I think we're a little spoiled.
Robyn, I am with you on thinking that Hanns was unable to think about the future as he was working on the war criminals. I cannot imagine trying to court a woman while you were tracking down basically serial killers. A bit of a disconnect for anyone I would think.I do think that today's young folk can rise to the challenge when it is presented to them. I worked with teenagers for many years as a teacher, they are still amazing people when given the chance to rise.
Kathy- I sure hope so. There's so much negative information out there and so much whining on social media. However, I'm a hockey mom and I agree - when you work with the kids you see so much potential and hear so many good ideas. My son teaches me a lot.
Yeah, I think there was a lot of compartmentalizing to get through the war.
I believe that Hanns was so enveloped in his hatred while working on the war criminals that he didn't feel like he could/should bring Ann into that atmosphere and reciprocate her feelings properly. I admire him for staying focused and once he was done being able to then fully focus on Ann and his family. I think he loved her all along but knew that he was unable to stay focused on her or let go enough of the feelings he was experiencing in the military to consider a serious relationship. As for Hanns' comment about the Russians handling things more efficiently. I tend to agree with Bentley's view on capital punishment that an eye for an eye accomplishes nothing; however, I think there are extreme cases where there are people who are just evil. These are the people that have the potential to be destructive to the public and their power can even reach beyond any bars that may contain them. I can understand Hanns' thought process. He saw this kind of evil.
I agree with Kathy in #13, that line really stood out to me as well. I really respect the effort Hans made to not pass on hate. The only way to truly end these horrific cycles is to stop the hate. I think it takes an extraordinary person to recognize this in themselves, and to act on it.I also found it interesting that Hedwig told the family her brother betrayed Rudolph's location to the British(p 285). I wonder if this was to protect her relationship with her children, or if she could not deal with the fact that she gave up her husband?
Thanks, Teri, interesting points. And we learned last week that Rudolf was seen as a traitor to other Nazi prisoners, so the ideology/loyalty was still there.We also see Hanns had a lot of issues related to his anger about Germany. It could be a reason he never shared his experiences with his family.
What are your thoughts about Rainer and his mother Irene's reactions as they visited Auschwitz?
Whitney wrote: "I also found it interesting that Hedwig told the family her brother betrayed Rudolph's location to the British(p 285). I wonder if this was to protect her relationship with her children, or if she could not deal with the fact that she gave up her husband?..."Good question. Possibly she could live a better life if people knew she did not give up her husband...I'm not sure.
Bryan wrote: "What are your thoughts about Rainer and his mother Irene's reactions as they visited Auschwitz?"For me, the best moment of the book came from Rainer, Rudolf's own flesh-and-blood: "'This is the best place here,' he says. 'This place that they killed him' (p.284)."
Even though there is cause for great sadness over these events, there is hope for the future when a grandson can denounce his grandfather so strongly.
Kathy wrote: "In the Epilogue (p. 278-279) Hanns describes his feelings for Germany. A couple of lines that hit me as especially telling, "The war, for him, was never a topic for discussion. 'I would not talk to..."So the question becomes: Were the children better served by not knowing?
Could Hanns possibly have imparted his experiences without imparting the hatred to the younger generation?
Kristjan wrote: "Kathy wrote: "In the Epilogue (p. 278-279) Hanns describes his feelings for Germany. A couple of lines that hit me as especially telling, "The war, for him, was never a topic for discussion. 'I wou..."I don't think Hanns could have talked about it without the hatred slipping through......or it was just to painful to speak about. This often happens with Vietnam vets who will never talk about their combat experiences. In Hanns' situation we are talking about general extermination/horror that the world had never seen before. I can understand his silence....he neither forgave nor forgot.
I agree, Jill, the book talks about how he really hated Germany and I guess never went back after the war. I suspect he did not seek counseling as many in that generation did not do (or not until very late in life).
Grandson did use powerful words, Krisjan, indeed.
Jill wrote: "Kristjan wrote: "Kathy wrote: "In the Epilogue (p. 278-279) Hanns describes his feelings for Germany. A couple of lines that hit me as especially telling, "The war, for him, was never a topic for d..."To clarify, I was not criticizing Hanns for refusing to talk about his experiences. Certainly, he witnessed things that no man should ever have to witness. His decision was understandable.
At the same time, if we want such events never to happen again, we must make sure future generations know what happened and how it was allowed to happen. The word of an eyewitness carries much more weight than words in a textbook, so if it is possible for them to share their experiences, it can be very beneficial for the future.
You are right,Kristjan.....we learn from those who were there. But, unfortunately, Hanns was not willing to be that person.
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It was interesting how Rainer and his mother's reactions differed. I suppose they all knew different versions of Rudolf Hoess, but not the whole person. It must be a strange experience having people like that as your ancestors.
I found the epilogue powerful. I'm not surprised by treatment the Hoess family received. I appreciate Hanns hatred towards Germany. The epilogue in all its candor added to the entire history. Interesting and moving story. Hanns was such a modest and quiet man. Every time I read of the Holocaust my heartbreaks, such a tragic part of history. Never easy to digest the atrocities committed.
Absolutely, Melinda, it is hard to read, but important. It does break your heart.
So should Hanns have spoken of this - educated his children to the anti semitism - and the world. The reality is that his children - and his grand children - and his great great children face the spectre of this coming again. Anti-semitism has been with the world for so long and it still exists and how does not make the children who could suffer this aware of the constant threat to them?
That's a tough question, Vince. I can't imagine something of the scope of the Holocaust happening again.....but then, who would have thought that it would happen in the 20th century. Anti Semitism raises its ugly head daily around the world and I can't imagine a Jewish child in the 21st century not realizing what it means and what it meant during WWII. I'm not sure that all survivors of the Holocaust were unwilling to talk about it.....both to their families and publicly. And the work of Elie Wiesel and others have kept the issue in the public eye. So Hanns may have be the exception rather than the rule.
Mod
Hello Everyone,
For the week of July 14th - July 20th, we are reading the Epilogue and Postscript and Notes and Family Trees of Hanns and Rudolf..
The tenth week's reading assignment is:
Week Ten - July 14th - July 20th
Epilogue and Postscript and Notes and Family Trees
(275 - 329)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on May 12th.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up early because Bentley is traveling to Asia..
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Jerome, Kathy and Libby.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Introduction Thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Table of Contents and Syllabus
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Q&A with Thomas Harding (the author):
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
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Bibliography
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Directions on how to participate in a book offer and how to follow the t's and c's - Hanns and Rudolf - What Do I Do Next?
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
ALL - REMEMBER YOU ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE FOR WRITING YOUR REVIEW ON THE FOLLOWING THREAD - YOU CAN START DOING IT NOW:
WEEK ELEVEN - July 21st - July 27th -> Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts
Write your review on the Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts Thread
Here is the link: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...