Homer's The Odyssey, translated by Emily Wilson discussion

This thread is for discussion of Book 3 of The Iliad.

I loved this book. Once again the ordinary men have the chance of peace and life taken away from them by the passions of a few individuals, these so-called "great men", who are anything but. Sure it is the gods who intervene to mean the truce falls apart, but Paris chooses to sleep with Helen and ignore the dishonour from his fleeing the battlefield. And thousands of people will die because of it.
I thought Helen interestingly portrayed too - some nice character complexity, which I was not expecting.
And those wonderful similes!

Jonathan wrote: "...I thought Helen interestingly portrayed too - some nice character complexity, which I was not expecting. ..."

Including her seeming respect for her father-in-law...

Agreed -- and I find this passage moving:

And Iris came on Helen in her rooms ...
weaving a growing web, a dark red folding robe,
working into the weft the endless bloody struggles
stallion-breaking Trojans and Argives armed in bronze
had suffered all for her at the god of battle’s hands.

The distaff side.....

Interesting translation difference between Alexander and Fagles, in Helen's conversation with Priam, as she described Agamemnon:

Alexander: "He was my brother-in-law, dog-faced as I am—if that ever happened.”

Fagles: "and he used to be my kinsman, whore that I am!"

It seems that Alexander's translation is much more accurate. I just found an interesting article -- Margaret Graver, "Dog-Helen and Homeric Insult," Classical Antiquity, Vol. 14, No. 1 (April 1995), pp. 41-61. Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25000142

Here's the abstract, in case anyone's interested:
"Helen's self-disparagement is an anomaly in epic diction, and this is especially true of those instances where she refers to herself as "dog" and "dog-face." This essay attempts to show that Helen's dog-language, in that it remains in conflict with other features of her characterization, has some generic significance for epic, helping to establish the superiority of epic performance over competing performance types which treated her differently. The metaphoric use of χύων and its derivatives has not been well understood: the scholiast's gloss "shameless" is no more than a functional equivalent, and interpretations linking it primarily with reckless courage or with sexual misconduct are not well founded. An analysis of contexts suggests that "dog" as an insult has a fundamental association with physical greed and even cannibalism. The implied notion of avarice, however, may also be extended into other behavioral spheres, including those of fighting and sexuality. A character may also be called "dog" for reviling or slandering another unjustly. These strongly negative implications are out of keeping with the character given to Helen in epic. For where tragedy and lyric generally represent Helen as blameworthy, Homeric epic tends to absolve her of blame and to make her personally as well as physically attractive. The unexpected application of dog-terms to her may therefore be read as an allusion to other versions of the Troy legend which were more hostile to Helen. Negative portrayals of Helen are likely to have figured in the ancient kitharodic narrative which was a precursor of both tragedy and lyric; these are perhaps the unfriendly "songs" mentioned by Helen at Il. 6.357. By referring to such defamatory narratives through the dog-insult and through other instances of Helen's self-blame, the epic performer marks his own more favorable treatment as a generic preference."

Kris wrote: "Interesting translation difference between Alexander and Fagles, in Helen's conversation with Priam, as she described Agamemnon:

Alexander: "He was my brother-in-law, dog-faced as I am—if that eve..."

Kris, Thanks, very interesting. Do you mean Alexander Pope's translation? (I'll check my Lattimore later.)

Lily wrote: "Kris wrote: "Interesting translation difference between Alexander and Fagles, in Helen's conversation with Priam, as she described Agamemnon:

Alexander: "He was my brother-in-law, dog-faced as I a..."

No -- Caroline Alexander. She published a new translation fairly recently. Here's the GR link -- The Iliad: A New Translation by Caroline Alexander

Kris wrote: "Lily wrote: "Kris wrote: "Interesting translation difference between Alexander and Fagles, in Helen's conversation with Priam, as she described Agamemnon:

Alexander: "He was my brother-in-law, dog..."

Ok. Thx!

As promised, Lattimore:

178 That man is Atreus' son Agamemnon, widely powerful,
at the same time a good king and a strong spearfighter,
once my kinsman, slut that I am. Did this ever happen?

Earlier Lattimore translates thus:
171 Helen, the shining among women, answered and spoke to him,
"Always to me, beloved father, you are feared and respected;
and I wish bitter death had been what I wanted, when I came hither
following your son, forsaking my chamber, my kinsman,
my grown child, and the loveliness of girls my own age.
It did not happen that way: and now I am worn with weeping."

Priam has said:
164 "I am not blaming you: to me the gods are blameworthy
who drove upon me this sorrowful war against the Achaians."

From Alexander Pope tranlation:

The king of kings, Atrides, you survey
Great in the war, and great in arts of sway:   
My brother once, before my days of shame!  
And oh! that still he bore a brother's name!"

Homer. THE ILIAD OF HOMER (non illustrated) (p. 68). . Kindle Edition.

4. The "sons of Atreus" are Agamemnon and Menelaus; also known as the Atridae (singular Atrides)

Agamemnon = son of Atreus = Atrides (singular)
Menelaus = son of Atreus = Atrides (singular)
Ag. + Men. = sons of Atreus = Atridae (plural)

http://people.duke.edu/~wj25/UC_Web_S...

Thanks so much, Lily!

Reading this section after falling asleep in the afternoon was magical. I was out earlier in the sleet/snow and historically I shut down. This happened after some German football and bean soup. I awoke after midnight and my wife had moved the Frankfurt School book. Without such, I took my Homer to the living room, outside it was howling and all alabaster.

Echoing Jonathan the results to families and communities are horrific --even if such is shadowed by the gleaming spectacle of Stags butchering one another over gene pools.

I agree this was a very interesting chapter. I feel as if I am reading this for the first time. Very little seems familiar except the descriptors used for the gods and elements. I was also shocked at the outcome of the supposed fight to determine Helen's fate and end the war. Then my thought was that man and war haven't changed much except for the weaponry.

Thanks for the discussion of the "dog" and its meaning. This is completely new to me.

Sue wrote: "I agree this was a very interesting chapter. I feel as if I am reading this for the first time. Very little seems familiar except the descriptors used for the gods and elements. I was also shocked ..."

Hi Sue! I agree with you about the timeless qualities of the themes of The Iliad. I think that's one reason for how adaptable it has been for modern writers and poets.

And the meaning of "dog" was new to me too. I'm thankful for Caroline Alexander's translation for using that term, or I would have been blithely reading the other translations without knowing about this level of resonance for readers of ancient Greek.

Jonfaith wrote: "Reading this section after falling asleep in the afternoon was magical. I was out earlier in the sleet/snow and historically I shut down. This happened after some German football and bean soup. I a..."

This is beautiful, Jon. It seems appropriate to have such an otherworldly reading experience for this book in particular.

Kris wrote: "Sue wrote: "I agree this was a very interesting chapter. I feel as if I am reading this for the first time. Very little seems familiar except the descriptors used for the gods and elements. I was a..."

Alexander's translation was on sale for Kindle on Sunday and I couldn't resist. So I picked it up for reading later.

One of the things that struck me in this book is the audacity of Helen in confronting Aphrodite and suggesting she (Aphrodite) should go to Paris’ bed instead of sending her. She seems fearless in confronting the goddess and is thoroughly fed up of the whole mess. But she caves in and trots off to Paris’ bed when Aphrodite threatens her.

The only other time I can think of when a mortal confronts a god/goddess in such harsh terms is in the Odyssey when Odysseus criticizes Athena after he lands in Ithaka. He accuses her of abandoning him throughout his arduous journey home. His criticism is pretty strong—and fearless.

Maybe there are other times when a mortal confronts one of the gods in such harsh terms. But I don’t recall them.

Tamara wrote: "Maybe there are other times when a mortal confronts one of the gods in such harsh terms. But I don’t recall them. ..."

{Laughing...} I presume you don't include the Psalms of the Bible!

I'll have to remember your comment when reading mythology, Tamara. It seems to me humankind has a long, long history of defying its gods, but maybe it defies more often than it confronts?

Lily wrote: "I'll have to remember your comment when reading mythology, Tamara. It seems to me humankind has a long, long history of defying its gods, but maybe it defies more often than it confronts?..."

Yes, I was thinking specifically of mythology.

I think there are many examples of humans defying the gods, but I can't think of other examples where they confront them so openly and harshly the way Helen confronts Aphrodite or Odysseus confronts Athena. But maybe i'm just suffering from a memory lapse :)

Tamara wrote: "I think there are many examples of humans defying the gods, but I can't think of other examples where they confront them so openly and harshly the way Helen confronts Aphrodite or Odysseus confronts Athena. But maybe i'm just suffering from a memory lapse :) ..."

I doubt the memory lapse, given your wide reading in the field, Tamara. But you pose a challenge for reading that I'd never really thought about before. And I've had many a discussion about confronting God with a capital G, so my thoughts went there first!

PS -- which makes thinking about the contrast all the more fun!

Learning so much from you all, about the meaning of dog-faced and how much fear the gods invoked.

I enjoyed this book too, yet it feels sad. The gods playing with mortals like toy soldiers, and/or the mortals always having some deity to blame for their plight.

I think I would feel defeated with Aphrodite around, either snatching victory right out of my hands like Paris out of his helmet, or threatening me if I didn't do her bidding like she does with Helen!

I tend to agree Kathleen, the divine caprice on display is daunting.

I picked up Caroline Alexander's The War That Killed Achilles: The True Story Of Homer's Iliad And The Trojan War. I skipped to her last two chapters (view spoiler)[ "The Death of Hecktor" and "Everlasting Glory" (hide spoiler)], since that is sort of the way I am picking at the Iliad in this re-read of mine. But I will say the insights and scholarship exhibited lead me to recommend her book to anyone struggling with the myriad aspects of this epic. At this point, I've read enough classics and mythology that I don't always agree with the categorization she gives to certain ideas, but in the hour plus I've spent with her, I have been delighted.

To Kathleen's and Jonfaith's comments, I do think she seems to credit Homer with lending divine caprice credence within human actions -- oh, that sentence is miserable, but I can't think how to say it more cogently right now! Perhaps that it is easier sometimes to credit the divine than to blame the mortal? So Homer does just that.

Kathleen wrote: "Learning so much from you all, about the meaning of dog-faced ..."

A bit about the ignominy of comparisons with dogs -- this does involve an ending of the story for Paris's and Hector's mother, so do not open if you care: (view spoiler)["Priam's wife, Hekabe, was turned into a dog, and her grave became a landmark for sailors, known as Cynossema--"the bitch's tomb." A number of explanations have been offered to make intelligible Hekabe's peculiar, and peculiarly vicious, fate--that she was stoned to death like a dog, that she howled like a dog in grief--but the main point seems to have been make indelible the depths of abasement to which she had been dragged by loss and enslavement." p218, op cit. Alexander refers to Euripede's Hecuba and the work of Herbert J. Rose. (hide spoiler)]

I'm holding off a bit on the spoiler there, but will be back! I'll also be back to read that Alexander book at some point, hopefully. :-)

Kathleen wrote: "I'm holding off a bit on the spoiler there, but will be back! I'll also be back to read that Alexander book at some point, hopefully. :-)"

Kathleen -- But if your library has Alexander's book, you might consider checking it out to use as a reference while reading the Iliad. I haven't used the opening chapters, but if the last two are any indication, it would work well and reads easily and yet richly.

Lily wrote: "Kathleen wrote: "I'm holding off a bit on the spoiler there, but will be back! I'll also be back to read that Alexander book at some point, hopefully. :-)"

Kathleen -- But if your library has Alex..."

Thank you Lily--good suggestion. I'll take a look.