Homer's The Odyssey, translated by Emily Wilson discussion

This thread is for discussion of Book 1 of The Iliad.

We going to try and read a book a day?

I think we're leaving the schedule a bit loose. We have separate discussion threads for each book, so people can read at their own pace. But I should be able to keep up with that schedule if it works for you, George.

Kris wrote: "I think we're leaving the schedule a bit loose. We have separate discussion threads for each book, so people can read at their own pace. But I should be able to keep up with that schedule if it wor..."

I doubt I can keep up a pace of a book a day, but I might attempt it.

Let’s play it by ear.

Kris wrote: "Let’s play it by ear."

Sounds like a plan.

Reading 2-3 books a week will work to finish before the read of The Odyssey starts, if it's helpful to have a benchmark.

Kris wrote: "Reading 2-3 books a week will work to finish before the read of The Odyssey starts, if it's helpful to have a benchmark."

That is good to know, and I can keep other books on my currently reading list; the way I like it.

Things are moving a bit slower than I anticipated. Hope to begin soon. I like the idea of 2 to 3 books per week. That seems to allow for a "catching up" possibility if needed.

I also have gotten off to a slower start than I hoped for bc of back issues -- muscle relaxants and Homer don't mix well. But I'm feeling better now.

I usually don't do well with audiobooks, but I've listened to the introductions for Caroline Alexander's translation and for one of Lattimore's, and I've also listened to Book 1 for Alexander's translation. I'm still going back and forth about which translation to focus on primarily -- I have Alexander, Fagles (which I read before), Lattimore, and Fitzgerald cued up. Hopefully I can stop being so wishy washy about this soon.

Hope you will feel better soon, Kris, and can read as much as you would like to during your work recess. Things going slow here too, reading a prose and a verse translation (in Dutch) and Fagles - integrally on line in a pdf (https://zodml.org/sites/default/files...).

I started Knox's introduction last night and hope to get to a bit of reading over the next few days. Kris, I totally understand about the effects of muscle relaxants on concentration. I've lost some good reading time that way.

In the lull between finals and the family descending for Christmas, I've squeezed in a few books, and I finished a military thriller this morning. Not a genre I usually go for, due to a general over-masculinity, but enjoyed it and finished it quickly. Then I started the Iliad. It struck me how very similar the feel of the two books were. The language and meter and setting and technology, of course are very different, but that RAR-we're-killers feel hasn't changed much with time. But Homer managed to establish it in just a few words.

Thanks, Ilse and Sue. I'm feeling much better now, and able to process and retain information, so that's a good sign!

Angie, nice comparison to get us started!

As I was reading Book 1, I was thinking about all the ways that Homer showcases status, honor and power -- the importance of captives and goods, the way the men are constantly measuring their status against each other, physical strength versus political strength -- so many important threads introduced in the first book. And, of course, the role of the gods in helping to shape the action. And throughout the relationships, mortal and immortal, lots of conflict.

Kris wrote: "....As I was reading Book 1, I was thinking about all the ways that Homer showcases status, honor and power -- the importance of captives and goods, the way the men are constantly measuring their status against each other, physical strength versus political strength... ."

The Iliad also lends itself to looking at the role of emotions in driving men (and women). Immediately in one's face is the anger of Achilles (some translations are more blunt than others). But out-of-the-gate, Homer also gives us the parental love that initiated (or at least lay beneath) the claim to a daughter, the pride or hubris of Agamemnon (and Achilles), and follows with a wide range of other emotions expressed by both mortals and gods. In some cases, particularly of the enslaved women, the reader is left to place his/her own guesses, but one of the most touching (and foreshadowing) scenes in the entire epic is the infant son frightened by the plume on his father's helmet. Nor does Homer overlook the fateful jealousy of Zeus's consort Hera.

I am one of those personality types that has tended to elevate reason over feeling, so it is interesting to watch myself change (broaden?) perspective as I age. Perhaps it is writers like Homer and Jonathan Haidt that have fueled the process.

Kris wrote: "
As I was reading Book 1, I was thinking about all the ways that Homer showcases status, honor and power -- the importance of captives and goods, the way the men are constantly measuring their status against each other, physical strength versus political strength -- so many important threads introduced in the first book. And, of course, the role of the gods in helping to shape the action. And throughout the relationships, mortal and immortal, lots of conflict.
.."

Agamemnon establishes himself as an inferior leader from the beginning. Clearly Achilles is the greater warrior. Achilles knows it and directly confronts Agamemnon with his selfishness as a leader. Agamemnon, were he to be whisked forward in time to the Vietnam War, would be the type of officer in danger of being "fragged" by his own men. Was Agamemnon a leader deserving of being followed?

Lawyer wrote: "Kris wrote: "
As I was reading Book 1, I was thinking about all the ways that Homer showcases status, honor and power -- the importance of captives and goods, the way the men are constantly measuri..."

Good question. Notice the reaction of the 2 men sent to take the girl from Achilles; they clearly did not want to be there and Achilles knew it and was not angry with them. His anger is at Agamemnon though many others will suffer because of his request of his mother. In that way, isn't he acting like the gods? Or is he merely acting like one of the kings?

Let's see -- help us fill in the back story of Agamemnon. First, he ostensibly is leading this war in the first place to avenge his brother Menelaus because Paris stole Helen. Second, he ordered the sacrifice of his daughter Iphigenia to assure success on the quest. Third, the crew had been deployed for years by the time of the setting of The Iliad. (I'm writing this without research -- help, please.)

P.S. This site is rather interesting: https://www.ancient.eu/Agamemnon/
'Tis fascinating to me how much seems to be egos getting in the way of egos, even the ego of the female goddess Artemis. Or at least those clashes of pride and honor get transmitted to the stories told.

Lily wrote: "The Iliad also lends itself to looking at the role of emotions in driving men (and women). Immediately in one's face is the anger of Achilles (some translations are more blunt than others). But out-of-the-gate, Homer also gives us the parental love that initiated (or at least lay beneath) the claim to a daughter, the pride or hubris of Agamemnon (and Achilles), and follows with a wide range of other emotions expressed by both mortals and gods. In some cases, particularly of the enslaved women, the reader is left to place his/her own guesses, but one of the most touching (and foreshadowing) scenes in the entire epic is the infant son frightened by the plume on his father's helmet. Nor does Homer overlook the fateful jealousy of Zeus's consort Hera."

I love your attention to emotions, Lily -- I know that from my earliest readings of Greek mythology, the emotions of the gods always struck me. In re-reading Book 1, I'm noting the extremes of emotions, the lack of control, as seen for example in Agamemnon, supporting Mike's references to Agamemnon as an inferior leader. Calchas even mentions his reluctance to explain the cause of the illness plaguing the Greeks,
“Achilles, dear to Zeus ...
you order me to explain Apollo’s anger,
the distant deadly Archer? I will tell it all.
But strike a pact with me, swear you will defend me
with all your heart, with words and strength of hand.
For there is a man I will enrage—I see it now—
a powerful man who lords it over all the Argives,
one the Achaeans must obey ... A mighty king,
raging against an inferior, is too strong.
Even if he can swallow down his wrath today,
still he will nurse the burning in his chest
until, sooner or later, he sends it bursting forth.
Consider it closely, Achilles. Will you save me?”

BTW, I love this passage from Fagles' translation, showing Apollo's response to Chryses' prayer for vengeance:

"His prayer went up and Phoebus Apollo heard him.
Down he strode from Olympus’ peaks, storming at heart
with his bow and hooded quiver slung across his shoulders.
The arrows clanged at his back as the god quaked with rage,
the god himself on the march and down he came like night."

"Down he came like night" is so evocative.

Lawyer wrote: "Agamemnon establishes himself as an inferior leader from the beginning. Clearly Achilles is the greater warrior. Achilles knows it and directly confronts Agamemnon with his selfishness as a leader. Agamemnon, were he to be whisked forward in time to the Vietnam War, would be the type of officer in danger of being "fragged" by his own men. Was Agamemnon a leader deserving of being followed? "

We know what Achilles' answer is:

"But let them both bear witness to my loss ...
in the face of blissful gods and mortal men,
in the face of that unbending, ruthless king—
if the day should come when the armies need me
to save their ranks from ignominious, stark defeat.
The man is raving—with all the murderous fury in his heart.
He lacks the sense to see a day behind, a day ahead,
and safeguard the Achaeans battling by the ships.”

Homer. The Iliad (Penguin Classics) (Kindle Locations 1649-1653). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Kris wrote: "...if the day should come when the armies need me to save their ranks from ignominious, stark defeat. ..."

But the grandeur of arc of the epic is that Achilles, too, must learn the price of wrath, the price of pride.

The book is sometimes short-handed as "The wrath of Achilles," or in more modern terms, "The anger of Achilles."

Still, Achilles learns humility before life, in ways Agamemnon does not, who must return to the fury and revenge of his wife for the sacrifice of their daughter..

This is actually about the fate of Achilles beyond The Iliad: (view spoiler)[ I was trying to remember what, if anything Homer. says about the death of Achilles, with his legendary vulnerable heel. Here is a good summary -- a story whose details largely sit outside the records of The Iliad: http://mlmcclain.com/teacher/theater_...
http://mlmcclain.com/teacher/theater_... (hide spoiler)]

Well said, Lily and there are those visible signs of that future in this first book.

My mouth is watering at those quotes, Kris. Can't start this for another week or so, but you all are making it hard to resist, and your thoughts are so helpful as I tackle this for the first time!

Sue wrote: "Well said, Lily and there are those visible signs of that future in this first book."

Which is why I dared say as much without spoiler indications. Even what I did just add as a "spoiler" really isn't, for The Iliad itself. (@22)

Kathleen wrote: ".... I tackle this for the first time!"

I hope you find it a treat! I wasn't sure about such a "war story." But each time I revisit this classic, I like it more -- i.e., it has details that relate to the lives within which we live.

Lily wrote: "Kathleen wrote: ".... I tackle this for the first time!"

I hope you find it a treat! I wasn't sure about such a "war story." But each time I revisit this classic, I like it more -- i.e., it has de..."

I had similar thoughts, so never picked this up even after loving The Odyssey. But I've already seen in the details you've all pointed out that there's so much more to it. It will definitely be a treat!

What I loved, and what I had forgotten, was how much like a couple of petulant brats both Agamemnon and Achilles are in this book. One can almost hear them saying "If you take my ball, I am going to take yours!" - "Well, if you take mine I am going home and I shant play with you anymore, so there!" etc
Like the gods, these "great leaders of men" are flawed and petty and irrational. And it is the ordinary men (and women) who suffer because of this. Certainly not a text which inspires worship of one's superiors.

Jonathan wrote: "What I loved, and what I had forgotten, was how much like a couple of petulant brats both Agamemnon and Achilles are in this book. One can almost hear them saying "If you take my ball, I am going t..."

RLOL! Thanks for this post, Jonathan! (And having watched Darkest Hour yesterday and reading this morning's feature articles (New York magazine, particularly), well, where do I want this sentence to go from here? We may use media other than oral epics to tell our tales... We may come to recognize our vulnerability as "ordinary people." But what does it all mean in calling some to be our leaders and to take the risks we eschew?)

Lily wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "What I loved, and what I had forgotten, was how much like a couple of petulant brats both Agamemnon and Achilles are in this book. One can almost hear them saying "If you take my b..."

Yes - reading this last night, and then the news this morning has made for an interesting set of resonances and echoes!

Kris -- feel free to tell me you'd prefer I not share links like this one (I'll even come back and delete this one), but here is a link to an earlier discussion on Goodreads of the first book of the Iliad:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Thanks so much for sharing the link, Lily -- happy for our group members to benefit from these resources and discussions!

Late in joining the party due to work, but attempting to read both Fagles and Mitchell translation. Just finishing the two introductions, and while the Fagles one is long, informative and a bit plodding, Mitchell's is absolutely riveting!

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...

I felt I needed to find out a bit about Mitchell's translation. Found the commentary above by Mendelsohn to be interesting.

Daniel Mendelsohn

Thanks Lily! I can't comment on the 10th book thesis at all, but I can just tell from Mitchell's intro that he is a poet's poet. It's not often that an intro can grab you by the head and heart at the same time, but he does, so I tend to trust his instincts already :D

W.D. wrote: "Thanks Lily! I can't comment on the 10th book thesis at all, but I can just tell from Mitchell's intro that he is a poet's poet. It's not often that an intro can grab you by the head and heart at t..."

Hey Bill! Many thanks to you and Lily for the info on the Mitchell translation. I have a copy here, so I'm going to add it to Fagles and Alexander -- we'll see if I can juggle three translations at once!

I have begun!

Reading Fagles, much smoother than I feared. I'm really enjoying it, but love this comment:

Jonathan wrote: "What I loved, and what I had forgotten, was how much like a couple of petulant brats both Agamemnon and Achilles are in this book. One can almost hear them saying "If you take my ball, I am going t..."

Yes! I was thinking--did they really think this kind of behavior would work for them? All this conniving and one-upping and shaking their fists at the skies and demanding things from their parents? It made me think of Peanuts Sally: "All I want is what's coming to me, all I want is my fair share!" :-)

Hi Kathleen! Glad you're having a good experience with Fagles, and laughing at the Peanuts parallel, which is perfect. Greek heroes and gods are all so flawed. I want to read more on emotions in Greek culture to get more context for these kinds of scenes --Lily had mentioned this as an area for examination @15 above. I may start reading The Emotions of the Ancient Greeks: Studies in Aristotle and Classical Literature by David Konstan tomorrow to see what it may add.

Kris wrote: "we'll see if I can juggle three translations at once!"
Hey, long time no speak! I hope your break was restorative. Mitchell writes so well, you'll have to do three! Some ppl don't like his salty slang tho ;)

Kris wrote: "Hi Kathleen! Glad you're having a good experience with Fagles, and laughing at the Peanuts parallel, which is perfect. Greek heroes and gods are all so flawed. I want to read more on emotions in Gr..."

Hi Kris! That looks like a great find--what an interesting subject. I'll be curious what you think and learn. Ancient Greece is endlessly fascinating ...

W.D. wrote: "Kris wrote: "we'll see if I can juggle three translations at once!"
Hey, long time no speak! I hope your break was restorative. Mitchell writes so well, you'll have to do three! Some ppl don't lik..."

I can handle the salty slang!

Kathleen wrote: "Kris wrote: "Hi Kathleen! Glad you're having a good experience with Fagles, and laughing at the Peanuts parallel, which is perfect. Greek heroes and gods are all so flawed. I want to read more on e..."

I'll keep you posted, Kathleen!

Um, why was Achilles fated to die young again?
(Forgetting my grade nine Mythology *already*)
:D

Jonathan wrote: "What I loved, and what I had forgotten, was how much like a couple of petulant brats both Agamemnon and Achilles are in this book. One can almost hear them saying "If you take my ball, I am going t..."
Yes, but those brats were pretty good at mansplaining to each other, you have to admit!

W.D. wrote: "Um, why was Achilles fated to die young again?
(Forgetting my grade nine Mythology *already*)
:D"

There was a prophecy that he would die at Troy -- not sure if there was an additional reason other than fate. There were later legends that described different ways his mother Thetis tried to make him invulnerable, which obviously didn't work out very well. The version where she held him by his ankle to dip him in the river Styx was later than the Iliad, I think. His untreated ankle was vulnerable, hence leading not only to his future death by an arrow, but also to the phrase "Achilles' heel."

I read that when he was born, there was a prophecy that he would die young, and that was why his mother dipped him in that river, hoping to make him immortal.

So fun to read how they're always trying to out-trick fate, to varying degrees of success.

My grade nine self remembers the heel, but "fate is fate" sounds about right :)

I recall the Achilles' heel too and I'm glad to see others do also.

Kris wrote: "W.D. wrote: "Um, why was Achilles fated to die young again?
(Forgetting my grade nine Mythology *already*)
:D"

There was a prophecy that he would die at Troy -- not sure if there was an additiona..."

"At Iliad 9.413, Achilles must decide between going back to Greece and living to old age, or remaining at Troy and dying young, but gaining everlasting glory."

Haven't followed up on that...more later? I knew it was a choice between long life and honor/glory, but I don't recall without digging the genesis of the story. I thought it was as an infant his mother Thetis dipped him save for his heel, by which she held him.

A bit more: "Thetis, in Greek mythology, a Nereid loved by Zeus and Poseidon. When Themis (goddess of Justice), however, revealed that Thetis was destined to bear a son who would be mightier than his father, the two gods gave her to Peleus, king of the Myrmidons of Thessaly."

"Thetis was described as the daughter of Nereus and Doris, and the leader of the fifty Nereid. Thetis was the goddess of sea, and like many other sea gods she possessed the gift of prophesy and power to change her shape at will."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Thetis
This is fun because the item on Peleus suggests how the failure to invite Eris (goddess of discord) to Thetis and Peleus wedding led to the judgment of Paris, which in turn led to the Trojan War. (I kinda remember that, but can never manage to wind all the pieces together without reconstruction. Then, I usually find out key stories/myths contradict each other....)

I love all of this background. It seems to stir very distant memories, way deep in my brain.

Sue wrote: "I love all of this background. It seems to stir very distant memories, way deep in my brain."

I love your comment, Sue!! :)