Small and Independent Press Books discussion

Over on this thread, https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... , our newest group member, Joni Dee, has suggested that we do a group common read of his debut novel, the espionage thriller And The Wolf Shall Dwell. If we decide to do this, he's also generously offered to give free copies of the e-book to members who want to participate.

Until now, we've never done a common read in this group, mainly because: a.) nobody ever suggested doing one before, and b.) since the kind of books we focus on as a group aren't typically found in most libraries, I've always felt a common read would be unfair to members who can't afford to buy a book every time there's a group read. Joni's offer, however, removes the latter objection.

Right now, I'm guessing that many people's attention is more on the holidays than on Goodreads. After the first of the year, however, I'll post a poll (in keeping with the practice of other groups I'm in, where common reads are a normal part of the life of the group) on the question of whether or not to do the read. If the majority of those who vote favor the idea, we'll plan to do it in February; that should allow everyone who wants to take part time to arrange his/her reading schedule. (Participation will be strictly voluntary, of course.)

Between now and the time the poll goes up, this thread will be open to further discussion by anyone who cares to comment. Does this sound to everyone like a workable plan?

I'm not opposed to the idea of a common read, but with apologies to the author, I'm not very interested in reading his book.

You know I tend to be unreliable in common reads, Werner, so I'm not sure how much my input is worth. But I thought I'd at least give you my feedback.

And once again, my apologies to the author. It's a very generous offer, but it's not a genre of particular interest to me.

Thanks for your feedback, Janelle; it is genuinely helpful. And no need at all to apologize! We're a very diverse group, with a subject focus that (unlike that of some groups) spans quite a variety of genres; and it goes without saying that not all individuals are going to like all of them. That's one reason why I feel strongly that any group common reads should always be strictly voluntary.

Thanks Werner :)

The poll is now up, and I've sent a general invitation to all group members who have an opinion to vote. A "no" vote means that you're opposed to doing a common read at all, not just not interested in this particular one! I thought that was the fairest way to state the question. So to do the read, the "yes" votes do have to outnumber the "no" votes; but they don't have to constitute a full majority of the group members; it's expected that many people won't vote, and that's okay. (I probably won't vote unless there's a tie.) We just want to see how many people are interested, and whether there are enough of those to make the idea worthwhile.

A common read is a good idea. I'm not keen on espionage thrillers much, so I'll pass on this selection.
paula

Thanks for your input, Paula!

I like thrillers. I'd be happy to read it, and thankful for the free copy.

I've already accepted a free review copy; so if the group's vote is yes, I'll read it with the group (or with as many of us as participate).

Werner wrote: "I've already accepted a free review copy; so if the group's vote is yes, I'll read it with the group (or with as many of us as participate)." OK

I'll pass. Thanks.

No problem, Ron! Janelle just brought it to my attention that the link to the poll in the general invitation I sent out is incorrect; I accidentally repeated the link to this thread. Sorry; mea culpa! The program won't let me send out a corrected invitation until tomorrow (I can only do one general message per day), but I'll do that ASAP tomorrow, Thanks, Janelle!

No worries, Werner.

I'm for the idea in general, but may opt out of particular group reads depending on schedule constraints.

Alicia wrote: "I'm for the idea in general, but may opt out of particular group reads depending on schedule constraints."

Alicia, I think that's how most of us approach common reads in our groups! Personally, I feel more obligation to at least try to take part if I'm one of the moderators in the group doing the read; but even then, I've been known to opt out at times.

Janelle wrote: "I'm not opposed to the idea of a common read, but with apologies to the author, I'm not very interested in reading his book.

You know I tend to be unreliable in common reads, Werner, so I'm not s..."

No apology needed! Not everybody wants to read every book. Besides, it was only a suggestion. Thanks for considering!

Just to clarify - the reason I suggested this to Werner is that other forums do similar joint reads. Personally, as a budding author, It's very hard to get reviews, and for good reason - Salman Rushdie or Joni Dee ?? Ha, I think even I would have chosen the former!

In any case, it is a well known secret that the more reviews you get the better chances you have of getting other people to read your novel too. Amazon has made an art of that, with a matrix that won't push an author with less than 100 reviews on Amazon.com, and a strict policy regarding collecting reviews.

For that reason I've also co-founded http://www.bookgobbler.com which gives out free eBooks and Paperbacks and allows authors a fair chance to get reviews. Would be great if you join us there too. With the same goal, I'm trying to get more and more people to read my book, even if it means offering it for free, to group reads such as this.

The other aspect is that you are all professional readers, having miles of books and experience behind you. For that reason, your feedback and remarks are genuinely important to me.
If I'm ever going to be able to lay off the day job and get book two published as well (half way through the writing process!) - I'd be wise to take your criticism (constructive and destructive) under consideration.

In addition, I'll be offering the book also free on Kindle for a day on Feb, so anyone who reviews and his review is "verified" can be a part of a promo to be in a raffle for a character named after him in my next novel (there are three "real people" who won a similar contest when I was funding "And the Wolf Shall Dwell")

Finally, if you managed to read through all of this then I'm in your debt already :-) and thank you all for considering reading my novel.
Best wishes for the New Year!
-Joni

The road to publication is a long and difficult one, isn't it, Joni.
Just wondering what you are referring to when you say Amazon has a strict policy regarding collecting reviews. I've heard about the need for reviews in order to do well within Amazon, but I haven't heard anything about their review criteria. Thanks

Janelle wrote: "The road to publication is a long and difficult one, isn't it, Joni.
Just wondering what you are referring to when you say Amazon has a strict policy regarding collecting reviews. I've heard about ..."

Indeed Janelle...

Ahhh, regarding reviews - people have made careers out of this. I'm not an expert as I try disassociate myself with anything that may seem like plugging reviews, but here are some things that I do know :
1) Amazon allows only 5 "unverified purchase" reviews per week
2) if Amazon suspects your friends or relatives (how they track it is beyond me) had reviewed your work they'll delete these review and there's no way/address for appeals.
3) Amazon tracks IPs, so an attempt to leave reviews from same IPs (even if different real users) will be deleted
4) Amazon gives more weight to reviews of "verified purchase" and encourages authors to pay (how convenient...) and gift their work for reviewing purposes
5) Gifts or incentive in return to a review (except for a free copy of the work) is strictly prohibited

That's what I know. I hope it helps ?
It's a delicate labyrinth of unspecified rules, some are written in Amazon/Kdp's help but others are fetched from forum conversations and people's experiences- so don't take this at face value...

Joni, that's interesting! I don't review much on Amazon, only books by independent or small press authors who I think need the publicity. When I do submit reviews, Amazon has always accepted them; but I've heard rumors that they sometimes arbitrarily delete reviews written by authors. (Whether they've ever deleted any of mine, I don't know.)

Do you know if they have rules against review swaps? I've never actually done one of those (and I don't think they're necessarily unethical, IF both authors understand that the reviews have to be honest, and they state up front that the arrangement was a swap); but I can see how that could be considered an "incentive" to do the review in the first place.

Werner wrote: "Joni, that's interesting! I don't review much on Amazon, only books by independent or small press authors who I think need the publicity. When I do submit reviews, Amazon has always accepted them; ..."

They wouldn't reject your review, but they may delete it indeed.

From my understanding Reviews swap is prohibited, which is very silly in my opinion (as if a 4 or 5 star discrepancy really matters...) but I have yet to see that actually enforced.

Werner wrote: "Joni, that's interesting! I don't review much on Amazon, only books by independent or small press authors who I think need the publicity. When I do submit reviews, Amazon has always accepted them; ..."

They have rules against review swaps, because customers don't trust both ends of the deal to be impartial. Most authors I know would be ethical, but it's a HUGE scam area. If Amazon finds out, they delete those reviews, and it may get you both banned from reviewing.

When I review a book (rarely), I know I have forever given up that book's author as someone who might review me in the future, and I accept that. But it does make me parsimonious with praise.

Thanks for the info, Joni and Alicia!

So far, we only have one "no" vote on the poll (the rest are all "yes" or not opposed). Janelle, in light of what you wrote in message 2, do you want to change your vote, now that we have the third option? Or have you reconsidered and decided that you actually are opposed to common reads in this group?

Alicia wrote: "Werner wrote: "Joni, that's interesting! I don't review much on Amazon, only books by independent or small press authors who I think need the publicity. When I do submit reviews, Amazon has always ..."

I wouldn't exactly call swapping reviews "HUGE scam area" .. I mean how far can you get ? 20 favourable reviews? Or did you mean that the whole reviews area is a fertile ground for scams in general?
I personally agree that it's best to stir away from all of this, given Amazon's un-proportional punishments to as little as mere suspicion. That's exactly why I appeal to the group to read my novel :-)

BTW - The greater problem is "click farms" - I hear people are paying darknet users to "lend" their book to fake users (taking advatage of KDP Select KENP scheme and thus books with zero real readers make it to Amazon top best sellers list... very annoying ... And The Wolf Shall Dwell for example is only #11087 in mystery/thrillers :-(

Alicia wrote: "Werner wrote: "Joni, that's interesting! I don't review much on Amazon, only books by independent or small press authors who I think need the publicity. When I do submit reviews, Amazon has always ..."

I must also say that your novel looks really interesting, and had entered my "to Read" list. presently I'm giving precedent to books on BookGobbler though, for obvious reasons. But looking fwd to getting to it!

Thanks for your comments, everyone, it opened up a whole world of reviewing "rules" that I wasn't aware of.

I hadn't realised you changed the poll, Werner. I'll take another look.

If there are enough people who vote yes, can't you just start a thread for that book? And then, if, after a couple of books at, say, a month each on the discussion thread, if there isn't enough participation, it doesn't have to be continued?

People not interested wouldn't be bothered. People interested would participate.

Alicia wrote: "If there are enough people who vote yes, can't you just start a thread for that book? And then, if, after a couple of books at, say, a month each on the discussion thread, if there isn't enough par..."

That's another valid (and simpler!) approach to book discussion, which we could keep in mind as well. Actually, it's possible now for authors and readers in the group to start threads for their own books (though not many have done that), or for other books, by small and independent press authors, that they feel are worthy of notice. (I've actually started several of those.) And other members can comment on them over time --I don't even see a need to delete the threads after a month, though perhaps very old and inactive ones could eventually be archived.

Building on what Alicia wrote, I gave the subject a bit more thought, and started another thread titled "Buddy Reads?" here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... . I'll copy and paste the first paragraph of my post there, to explain my idea:

"One of my other groups does multiple (voluntary) group common reads, chosen by group-wide polls, on a monthly or bi-monthly basis. That's not an approach I'd recommend here; but they also do something that might be a good idea for this group: they use the term "buddy reads" for what are in effect informal mini common reads, member-initiated, and open to anyone in the group who wants to take part. These usually have more than just two or three participants; they aren't featured at the top of the group page and there are no whole-group notifications or changes of shelf status for the book involved, but the discussions are carried on using a dedicated thread on the discussion board for each one, rather than by personal message."

The term "common read," I think, is broad enough to cover both traditional group reads and buddy reads in this sense. Do the rest of you agree that the latter format would be a good way to approach the shared reading of Joni's book, if there are more positive votes on the poll than "no" votes? (And so far, there are no "no" votes!)

Works for me - a dedicated thread is better for finding comments from others. I scan my notifications, and check only the ones which I usually participate in, occasionally peeking at the others.

Some threads degenerate into interesting topics that I don't happen to have an interest in (such as sports or local politics), but that the participants obviously like to talk about with people they know well. Some are pretty funny - if you get the jokes (I miss a lot of British humor and American slang). Otherwise, you spend your time asking What?

Alicia, thanks for your feedback! (However we approach our discussion of this book, I'll try to ensure that the conversation stays at least reasonably on topic. :-) )

Altogether, seven people voted on the poll. Four are interested in doing the read (and as I said earlier, I'm in as well!), three more are not opposed to common reads, though won't be taking part in this one, and none are opposed to the idea in principle. So, it's on!

As discussed above, we'll do this on the multi-person buddy read plan. I'll get a thread set up for it at the beginning of next month (probably in the "Action adventure" folder?), and we'll start then. Joni, do you have any instructions for folks who want a free copy of the e-book edition?

Werner wrote: "Altogether, seven people voted on the poll. Four are interested in doing the read (and as I said earlier, I'm in as well!), three more are not opposed to common reads, though won't be taking part i..."

Hi Werner
I have just now forwarded a version of the mobi file so you can distribute to the group.
Alternatively they can send me an email to jondee@jondbooks.com or if they prefer an ePub.

Many thanks to whoever had agreed to read !

Will wait until I see if I get a copy; not sure how 'distribute to the group' will work.

If I don't get one, I'll email Joni.

Joni, I received the file, and test forwarded it to my other e-mail account. The attached file seems to have transferred just fine!

Alicia, just now, I forwarded the same attachment to you. Just let me know whether or not you're able to access it satisfactorily! That will be the test case.

Everybody else, if you want an e-copy, just personal message me with your e-mail address (the Goodreads messaging system can't handle attachments). If Alicia's forward is successful, I'll forward yours the same way. If not, I'll save the e-version to my memory stick, and then send it as an attachment in a new e-mail to you. But one way or another, I'll see that you get it!

Werner wrote: "Joni, I received the file, and test forwarded it to my other e-mail account. The attached file seems to have transferred just fine!

Alicia, just now, I forwarded the same attachment to you. Just l..."

Here's a great resource on how to send files to your Kindle.
https://www.bookgobbler.com/2017/08/1...
Also, if you add admin@bookgobbler.com to your safe senders list (instructions in this link) and email me, I'd be able to push the book straight to your kindle.

Another thing, over February I'll again do a one day free download from Amazon (as soon as KDP allow me) - that way your Amazon reviews could be "verified purchase" which would carry more weight. I hope it's okay by you all! And thanks again!

We're the ones owing thanks to you, Joni!

Have not yet received an email at my computer nor a message here with anything attached.

I checked my spam and trash folders - nothing yet.

Alicia wrote: "Have not yet received an email at my computer nor a message here with anything attached.

I checked my spam and trash folders - nothing yet."

Alicia, please email me to jondee@jondbooks.com and I'll reply with the file. If all else fails - I will then gift it to you. Thanks. x

Alicia, let me know if you're able to get the e-book from Joni. I'm not sure why the transmission failed from this end; but I've long since given up trying to explain anything that computers do, or fail to do! :-(

Werner wrote: "Alicia, let me know if you're able to get the e-book from Joni. I'm not sure why the transmission failed from this end; but I've long since given up trying to explain anything that computers do, or..."

Werner, may I be cheeky and remind, that whoever posts a 'verified copy' review on Amazon (meaning an Amazon Kindle book or paperback) will get a chance to be a character in my next novel (currently half eay posted),
Here are the details: https://jondbooks.com/2017/10/18/do-y...

Jon, that reminder isn't cheeky at all! :-)

Werner wrote: "Jon, that reminder isn't cheeky at all! :-)"

LOL/ I am trying to be as little as pushy as I can :D

Regarding Alicia, I've just sent her the copy and let's see if it managed to go through this time.

File from Joni arrived via his email address, above.

Hope some of the readers here have thrillers as one of the preferred reading genres.

Alicia wrote: "File from Joni arrived via his email address, above."

All's well that ends well! :-)

Have others signed up? Do we get a discussion thread?

Besides you and I, Alicia, three other people have professed interest. And yes, unless someone else posts a discussion thread first, I plan to get one set up around the beginning of February, when the read is projected to start. That should give everyone time to secure their copy in the meantime.

Okay - be sure to let us know about the sale, so any reviews can come from a verified purchase.

Alicia wrote: "Okay - be sure to let us know about the sale, so any reviews can come from a verified purchase."

Will do! thanks