Retro Reads discussion

"Ashton Hilary Akbar Pelham-Martyn was born in a camp near the crest of a pass in the Himalayas, and subsequently christened in a patent canvas bucket."

I'm already loving it. Dear brave Sita and little Ash: '....many who must reap the whirlwind were as blameless and bewildered as Sita and Ash-Baba, blown helplessly before the gale like two small and insignificant sparrows on a wild day of storm.'

Okay, so we're off!

Question: Where are we in time and place? Is this before the Sepoy Rebellion? It has to be since the rebellion was in 1857 and that happens later in the book. So is this something that occurs earlier?

Yes, before the Sepoy Rebellion.

Thanks Diane Lynn!

I thought the author did a great job of showing both sides of the rebellion, and the many innocent lives lost and uprooted.

" 'John Company' had sown the wind. But many who must reap the whirlwind were as blameless and bewildered as Sita and Ash-Baba, blown helplessly before the gale like two small and insignificant sparrows on a wild day of storm."

I had to look up the John Company--it was the British East India Company, not as I had initially thought, a regiment. I haven't found out why it was called that, though I found some speculation that it's a corruption of 'Honorable', which was part of the company's name in the original charter.

Yes, John Company is just another name for the old British East India Company. I never really thought about where that colloquialism came from. I don't suppose we will ever know for sure. I found references to the 'honorable' corruption Hana mentioned, as well as 'John' being very common (as in John Doe), plus another reference to it coming from 'Jan' as in the Dutch East India Company, the first in the spice trade business.

In any event, MM Kaye does do a great job of showing both sides in the ongoing conflicts. "Annexation and lapse" as a way to take over land, saathi forbidden being just two examples.

I really like Sita, she is doing her absolute best for Ashok. I would say she is honorable.

MM Kaye spent a lot of time in India and elsewhere, and her love of it shows through her books. I haven't read her memoirs yet, but I've been told that some events from her time in India were used in this book.

One thing that will start hitting home the more you read, is how different the western and eastern mindsets are, and how we never learn from history's mistakes.

Misfit, you're so right! I'm amazed at MM Kaye's deep feeling for the land. I've got her biography, The Sun in the Morning: My Early Years in India and England on my priority TBR list.

I need to get around to reading those.

Just wait until the last parts, and how we never learn.

@8 Diane Lynn, I'm so amazed by what Sita has managed to do to protect Ashock--honorable and incredibly resourceful. I found a great map that shows all the towns across the Punjab where the 1857 rebellion flared, and it show the Great Trunk Road that they were initially traveling on. You can click on the map and see the towns where there was violence underlined in red. They have to have traveled hundreds of miles! No wonder poor little Ash says, wistfully, 'Aren't we ever going to stop anywhere?

He's quite a courageous little chap.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histor...

Nice map. Ash is one of my favorite heroes.

Linda wrote: "Misfit wrote: "Nice map. Ash is one of my favorite heroes."

I read that comment in my update and it made me decide to join this group. Though I won't be able to join in the actual buddy read, I h..."

I remember that picture; it was one of the many reasons that made me investigate that tribe and similar ones in Afghanistan and eventually led me to read "The Far Pavilions" years ago.

Ashton is so well-written and lovable! He inaugurated a model of British Raj heroes after which others were created (in my opinion not so well fleshed-out): Englishmen or British descendants that could pass for Indian tribesmen or were overwhelmingly pro-native. Alex from "Shadow of the Moon" and Oliver from "Zemindar" are from the Ash mould.

Welcome Linda, and thanks for that photo and awesome link!

You read my mind--I was thinking of that National Geographic photo when I read this description on p. 44: '...she did not renew the dye, since by now they were close to the foothills of the Himalayas, and hill-folk being fairer-skinned than the men of the south (many of them having light coloured eyes, blue, grey or hazel, and hair that is as often red or brown as black) her son Ashok aroused no comment and was, indeed, somewhat swarthier than many of the pale-skinned Hindue children with whom he played in the villages by the way.'

Sita's brother is stationed in Marden, near Peshawar and the pass to Kabul, and Sita herself is one of the hill-people so Ashok might easily have resembled her enough to have been her son.

When cholera struck Professor Hilary's camp, they must have been somewhere in the valley just below foothills on the border of Nepal in the area marked The Derai on the map. It seemed that they were northeast of Saharanpur, near enough to meet pilgrims making their way towards the headwaters of the Ganges. It took Ashok and Sita a month to reach Delhi.

This is one version of the lullaby Sita sings to Ashok:
http://www.mamalisa.com/?t=es&p=2...

Wow. I have never seen that picture before, thanks for posting it Linda.

I could easily pick up and go back to my favorite scenes in this book, I should tag them next time I pick this up. A Kindle edition would be nice.

------>>>>>>Huge spoiler and only for those who have read the book (view spoiler)[I always snivel big time at the part where Ash had to stand by and watch Juli be married to that Rani (hide spoiler)].

I'm not peeking Misfit--turns out I"ve never read the book, although I thought I had!

This is the sort of country Sita and Ashok are wandering around in search of a safe village to settle in. Incredible pictures! http://www.johntyman.com/nepal/01.html

Hana wrote: "I'm not peeking Misfit--turns out I"ve never read the book, although I thought I had!

This is the sort of country Sita and Ashok are wandering around in search of a safe village to settle in. Incr..."

The resources you're linking are so informative, Hana. Thank you, I liked the lullaby.

Misfit wrote: "Wow. I have never seen that picture before, thanks for posting it Linda.

I could easily pick up and go back to my favorite scenes in this book, I should tag them next time I pick this up. A Kindle..."

Me too, Misfit, it's snivel-worthy especially after reading what happens before that :(.

Hana wrote: "I'm not peeking Misfit--turns out I"ve never read the book, although I thought I had!

This is the sort of country Sita and Ashok are wandering around in search of a safe village to settle in. Incr..."

Nice link. I'll have to show that to the boss when he's back in town tomorrow. He did the Everest thing back in '07. They flew into Katmandu and had to hoof it in to base camp IIRC. You should have seen him after being at those altitudes for weeks, the thin air just sucked every extra ounce off of him, he looked like half his normal height.

Don't click on that link whatever you do. That's just for us old-timers. I do appreciate the chance to experience this again with a bunch of first time readers, so thanks for letting us share your ride.

@ Marquise, (view spoiler)[ my heart just breaks all over again thinking about it (hide spoiler)].

Misfit, that's so interesting about the thin air's effect on your boss!

Did you read the story about the Pashtun girl with the incredible eyes @Linda 14? That photo is of her when she was 12 years old. The photo of her 17 years later shows how dramatically she had aged--just as Kaye says about Sita, that she was not much more than 25, but looked much older. Climate, hard work, poor diet, childbearing all took a heavy toll.

Misfit wrote: "@ Marquise, [spoilers removed]."

*sniffle*

Nevertheless, that's one (view spoiler)[of my favourite love scenes in literature, though it's mild and leaves much to the imagination. (hide spoiler)] I love it precisely because of that, though.

Hana wrote: "Misfit, that's so interesting about the thin air's effect on your boss!

Did you read the story about the Pashtun girl with the incredible eyes @Linda 14? That photo is of her when she was 12 year..."

Yes, I remember that too. Here's the comparison of the girl back then and years later: http://blog2.nl/wp-content/uploads/20...

Amazing seeing them side-by-side like that!

Hana wrote: "Amazing seeing them side-by-side like that!"

You can see the effect of life's vicissitudes even in her eyes, don't you think? Still haunting, yet less bright.

Linda wrote: "Photographer Steve McCurry did a whole National Geographic documentary on his search for the girl. It was incredibly moving, really heartbreaking. She had never learned to read or write, but hope..."

I read that follow-up article when it came out a few years ago. It was heart-breaking. Even today life is so hard for women in some of these countries.

Marquise wrote: "Misfit wrote: "@ Marquise, [spoilers removed]."

*sniffle*

Nevertheless, that's one [spoilers removed] I love it precisely because of that, though."

Gawd, I'm sniveling just thinking about it. We should probably stop teasing the newbies :p

Misfit wrote: "Marquise wrote: "Misfit wrote: "@ Marquise, [spoilers removed]."

*sniffle*

Nevertheless, that's one [spoilers removed] I love it precisely because of that, though."

Gawd, I'm sniveling just thin..."

Agreed! :)

Hana wrote: "Misfit, that's so interesting about the thin air's effect on your boss!

Did you read the story about the Pashtun girl with the incredible eyes @Linda 14? That photo is of her when she was 12 year..."

You ever see a pic of an overweight Sherpa?

When I read Jennifer Donelly's last book in the Rose trilogy, that really struck me, as at the opening the heroine had been living high in those mountains for five years (I think it was five, could be wrong), and yet when she's found all the men think she's the hottest thing ever and no one - but no one mentions how scrawny she looked. Boss said they were all like that when they were done, and it took weeks for him to get back to size.

Not that I would have expected the author to know that, or anyone who hasn't seen someone come back from that lengthy stay at those altitudes.

Hana wrote: "Misfit, you're so right! I'm amazed at MM Kaye's deep feeling for the land. I've got her biography, The Sun in the Morning: My Early Years in India and England on my priority TBR list."

I enjoyed reading her autobiography a lot. It's just as good as her novels. Sadly, I was only able to access the third volume of it, but it's particularly fun for me to read, because half of it was about her life in China(I'm Taiwanese).

Hana wrote: "@8 Diane Lynn, I'm so amazed by what Sita has managed to do to protect Ashock--honorable and incredibly resourceful. I found a great map that shows all the towns across the Punjab where the 1857 re..."

After reading Ashok's story, I felt he's like someone I actually have known for a long time. His struggle feels so real, and I was completely charmed.

I'm so excited seeing you reading this novel together. <3 It's one of my favorites.

By the way, I've been suspecting a reference of Ashok's background, but a little spoiler of both The Sheik and M.M. Kaye's autobiography is included. I'm tagging the spoiler part, and you could decide whether you want to check it before reading Kaye's autobiography.

The Sheik

(view spoiler)[The reasons I suspect it might has some effect on Kaye's decision of Ashok's origin:

1. "Kashmiri Love Song (Pale Hands I Love)" was mentioned in both The Sheik and Kaye's autobiography. It was kind of important in the former, actually.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvuiS...

2. The hero in The Sheik, son of a British father and Spanish mother, was adopted by an Arabic Sheik but passed as Arabic completely. This is very similar to how Ashok passed as an Indian. Since the song was mentioned in Kaye's autobiography, she definitely knew the song, and it's very likely she's also familiar with The Sheik, too.

(hide spoiler)]

Linda, I agree there are a lot of parallels between Ash and Kim. I was amazed though, that Kaye managed to weave many of these familiar elements into a new and very magical story.

p. 61 The first official meeting between Lalji and Ash is beautifully done. I love it that what makes Ash decide to stay is his sense that Lalji is being treated unfairly:'....quite suddenly Ash remembered another voice, someone he had almost forgotten who had said to him long, long ago in another life and another tongue:"The worst thing in the world is injustice..."

And I'm so glad Sita could join the palace retinue and had a little courtyard with a pine tree.

p. 63 The palace intrigue is quite scary, especially that moment when Ash realizes that Lalji's cakes had been poisoned. Yet Ash says nothing: 'a too early acquaintance with danger had taught him caution....'

p. 70 & 72 I love it when Ash and Juli discover the secret balcony looking out over the Dur Khaima--the Far Pavilions, and how Ash creates his own private devotions bowing towards the mountains as Koda Dad bows to Mecca, bringing offerings, and adding whispered half-remembered prayers "Thou are Everywhere, but I worship thee here." His fusion religious ceremonies have a lovely childlike purity.

What are some of your favorite moments from Book 1?

Hana wrote: "p. 70 & 72 I love it when Ash and Juli discover the secret balcony looking out over the Dur Khaima--the Far Pavilions, and how Ash creates his own private devotions bowing towards the mountains as ..."

Hana wrote: "What are some of your favorite moments from Book 1?"

This.

I liked that Ash had Tuku.

page 68 "Ash loved the graceful, fearless little creature, and felt that Tuku knew it and returned his love."

Of course it doesn't end well for Tuku and Ash, but it was sweet while it lasted.

Oh Tuku was a darling! Mongooses (geese? lol) are really quite cute, sort of like a cross between kittens and squirrels, only sleeker, and they make this charming little chirping noise!

Hana wrote: "Oh Tuku was a darling! Mongooses (geese? lol) are really quite cute, sort of like a cross between kittens and squirrels, only sleeker, and they make this charming little chirping noise!"

Plus they are good to have around for snake control.
How about Rikki-Tikki-Tavi?

Speaking of Rikki-Tikki-Tavi, I just read this a day or so ago: http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/on...

I'm not sure I agree, but it is a charming story. :) Here's an online version of it: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mongoose/rtt.html

Cute story Tadiana.

Check out this mongoose vs. cobra face-off from National Geographic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdg9g...

Lalji had a point about those teeth :P

Hana wrote: "p. 70 & 72 I love it when Ash and Juli discover the secret balcony looking out over the Dur Khaima--the Far Pavilions, and how Ash creates his own private devotions bowing towards the mountains as ..."

That's my favourite as well, it's a touching scene that he'd decide for himself what his own private beliefs would be.

Misfit wrote: "Hana wrote: "p. 70 & 72 I love it when Ash and Juli discover the secret balcony looking out over the Dur Khaima--the Far Pavilions, and how Ash creates his own private devotions bowing towards the ..."

Ditto!

Diane Lynn wrote: "Of course it doesn't end well for Tuku and Ash..."

When I watched that video with the mongoose and the cobra I realized that there was no way that Lalji's servant could have killed Tuku if the poor little animal had not been completely trusting and very tame. It made that scene even more horrible.

Hana wrote: "Diane Lynn wrote: "Of course it doesn't end well for Tuku and Ash..."

When I watched that video with the mongoose and the cobra I realized that there was no way that Lalji's servant could have kil..."

That did not even occur to me when I watched that video, but of course you are correct. Does make it more horrible.

That video was amazing. Mongooses are smarter and faster than I imagined. Thanks for posting it. :)

Goodreads friends -- I am so sorry I have not been joining in the discussions or keeping up with the readings. I have completed Book 1, and while I love it, I think this is just not the right time for me to tackle this mega book. Life is Really Busy right now, and I want to give The Far Pavilions the time it deserves to truly enjoy it. I need light, quick reads right now. I do apologize again for opting out of the group read, and hope to return to Ash's story in the future. My thanks to Hana for all her work to set up this group read and all the links everyone has posted. I will definitely take advantage of all this enrichment when I finally do read the rest of the story. Happy reading!