Read Scotland 2018 discussion

Our first group read for January and February:

In My End is My Beginning: A Life of Mary Queen of Scots

By James A. MacKay

Read it and share your thoughts below. Please use the spoiler HTML or comment at the top of your post where you are in the book so to not give anything away to those not quite there yet.

Enjoy reading all about Mary, Queen of Scots... can't wait to hear your thoughts!

Downloaded onto Kindle and ready to start as soon as I finish with the Bastille Mystery that I'm currently reading. Looking forward to reading this and seeing what everyone else thinks of it.

Susan wrote: "Downloaded onto Kindle and ready to start as soon as I finish with the Bastille Mystery that I'm currently reading. Looking forward to reading this and seeing what everyone else thinks of it."

Me too, Susan.

I'm currently at the beginning of a very big book of Mary Queen of Scots that's quite intense so I'm going to try this one, I've only ever heard the English side of the story which is quite biased, needless to say!

Just reserved it at my local library, hopefully it will be ready for collection soon.

I'm so excited! Mary Queen of Scots is one of my reading themes for the year!

Downloaded on to my iPad - ready to go! I haven't read anything great on Mary since Antonia Fraser's bio so looking forward to this one.

Ordered it today, and hoping to receive it early next week, ideally just as I finish Night Falls on Ardnamurchan.

Ordered Kindle version, should starting reading it soon - want to finish Peter May's Blackhouse first

Started reading this today. Already learned something I didn't know so that's a positive start. Anyone else started yet?

Received mine this afternoon, and only just started. But already thinking I need to go online and print out a lineage chart to keep track of these royal intermarriages.
Nicely readable so far.

John wrote: "Received mine this afternoon, and only just started. But already thinking I need to go online and print out a lineage chart to keep track of these royal intermarriages.
Nicely readable so far."
That's a good idea John, I'd known for years that Darnley was Marys' cousin but only found out today that he was Margaret Tudors' grandson. As for Angus, Arran and Albany - far too many people beginning with A in the political scene.

This link is for a resource aimed at school-children, but I liked the simplified family tree.

http://www.collaborativelearning.org/...

John wrote: "This link is for a resource aimed at school-children, but I liked the simplified family tree.

http://www.collaborativelearning.org/..."

I agree that the names are confusing so thanks for the link John - it’s much easier to decipher than the usual!

Thanks so much for the link!!! Am still waiting for my book to come in the mail. Can't wait to start!

Anyone else managed to get their copy of the book yet?

I'm almost a third of the way through, and its been an enjoyable read so far. Up to now, its largely been a sympathetic treatment of Mary with a less starry-eyed treatment than usual of some of the other protagonists. (eg Knox is a "narrow-minded bigot").

The only negative so far is the lack of a couple of appendices - a lineage chart as previously mentioned, and maybe a "who's who" of the main players, especially those in the courts and councils of France, England and Scotland.

Just started the second chapter and finding it easier going than the first so far. Got very bogged down trying to keep track of everyone at the start but managing better in France at the moment. Agree that a "who's who" would make life much easier.

Feeling annoyed with myself as my copy has still not arrived - it was lurking in my online basket and I hadn’t checked out until I realised my mistake a few days ago. So I’m late and can’t wait to catch up!

Anyway, it’s interesting to hear your first impressions of the book. I’ll have a head start with the complex ‘character’ relations with Johns handy chart.

Hope it arrives today!

Mine still hasn't arrived either -- but that's because when I order used copies they always take forever to come! Can't wait to start.

ReadingScotland wrote: "Mine still hasn't arrived either -- but that's because when I order used copies they always take forever to come! Can't wait to start."

Ah. I ordered a second hand copy, that's probably why it isn't here yet. Pooh! (As they used to say.) ;)

I'm getting to the end of the group read, but had to take a break from the misdeeds of the collection of "noble" and royal chancers the book portrays.

The lyrics of Brian McNeill's song offer some refreshment - and if you get the chance, try to listen to Dick Gaughan singing it.

No Gods And Precious Few Heroes
(Brian McNeill)

Chorus:
'Cause there's no gods and there's precious few heroes
But there's plenty on the dole in the land o' the leal
And it's time now to sweep the future clear
Of the lies of a past that we know was never real

I was listening to the news the other day
I heard a fat politician who had the cheek to say
He was proud to be Scottish, by the way
With the glories of our past to remember
Here's tae us, wha's like us, listen to the cry
No surrender to the truth, and here's the reason why
The pride and the glory's just another bloody lie
They use to keep us all in line

So to hell with the heather and the glen
They cleared us off once, and they'll do it all again
'Cause they still prefer sheep to thinking men
Ah but men that think like sheep are even better
There's nothing much to choose between the old laird and the new
They still don't give a damn for the likes of me and you
Just mind you pay your rent to the factor when it's due
And mind your bloody manners when you pay

And tell me, will we never hear the end
Of poor bloody Charlie and Culloden yet again
Though he ran like a rabbit doon the glen
Leaving better folk than him to be butchered
Or are you sitting in your council house, thinking o' your clan
Waiting for the Jacobites to come and free the land
Try going doon the broo wi' a claymore in your hand
And count all the princes in the queue

So don't talk to me of Scotland the Brave
'Cause if we don't fight soon there'll be nothing left to save
Or would you rather stand and watch them dig your grave
While you wait for the Tartan Messiah
He'll lead us to the Promised Land wi' laughter in his eye
We'll all live off the oil and the whisky, by and by
Free heavy beer, pie suppers in the sky
Will we never hae the sense to learn

Final chorus:
Ah, there's no gods and there's precious few heroes
But there's plenty on the dole in the land o' the leal
And I'm damn sure that there's plenty live in fear
Of the day we stand together with our shoulders to the wheel
Ay, there's no gods!

John wrote: "I'm getting to the end of the group read, but had to take a break from the misdeeds of the collection of "noble" and royal chancers the book portrays.

The lyrics of Brian McNeill's song offer som..."

Great song, John!

My book has finally arrived! While I'm catching up, here's a first question to discuss:

Does the book read like a list of facts/events or does it read like a narrative in a story?

Thoughts on what you prefer, the writing style, and how the historical events are reading as a book....

For me, it reads as a narrative, and a very readable one, and given the crowded events of her life, it moves at a very rapid pace. There are some episodes where it leaves you wanting to know a lot more and I suspect I'll do some follow-up reading of some of the books that cover individual episodes or aspects of her life. The author includes a bibliography and some suggestions for further reading.

An aspect of his style which I liked is that although he is mainly sympathetic to Mary, its not a hagiography and he also makes clear some of her instances of astonishingly bad judgement.

The link below is for the website of the Marie Stuart Society, which contains some images of Mary; if you follow the links to "places to visit" / Jedburgh there is also a photograph of one of the hand-painted death masks of Mary.

http://www.marie-stuart.co.uk/index.htm

I am enjoying it so far, although the beginning is packed with too many people and events. I was feeling overwhelmed as I tried to hold on to the key facts. It flows well and I am looking forward to getting involved in the story.

I'm about 70% through the book. It took a bit of getting used to this style of writing - lots of facts/events rather than descriptions/dialogue but I'm enjoying the book. What a pity we didn't get taught any of this in school - quite a bit is set in my local area.

I was the same, it's very factually written which takes a while to get used to but my brain is switched on to it now. I'm half way through and a lot of the history is new to me.

All the complex politics and ever changing feuds and alliances, how could Mary keep up!? There are times I want to get these lords and earls all feuding with each other to sit down and tell them to play nice!

John wrote: "The link below is for the website of the Marie Stuart Society, which contains some images of Mary; if you follow the links to "places to visit" / Jedburgh there is also a photograph of one of the h..."

Great website, John. The book is building up a clear picture of her but still nice to see many different portraits to bring her to life. I liked seeing her signature (I'm a bit fascinated with handwriting) and her embroidery too - seeing a bit of the human being behind all the legend and myth.

Oh wow! I've just read Chapter 9 "Birth and Death"

In future when we've all finished I'd like your views on these bizarre turn of events but for now I'll hide my thoughts with the 'spoilers' html.

(view spoiler)[ Predictably for me, my interest was peaked further by the strange murder of Darnley. I knew Lord Darnley was murdered but I've never realised the crazy plot behind it! (Ironically, I guess I always imagined his death was rather similar to the way Riccio died.) First they tried to blow him up (bit extreme) and then he was found mysteriously strangled (along with his valet) with a cloak, dagger and chair laid out neatly beside him. It's like a medieval Agatha Christie - she would have loved it! If this was in a novel, I would say to myself it was all a bit far fetched - get real, people!

Joking aside, I was upset by the waste of all those servants caught in the blast - I suppose some would argue they were loyal to their master and would have defended him but to me it's seems like unnecessary, pointless violence. Darnley, though a nightmare and a dolt, was also young to die. What a mess.

Although the author is careful to give accurate accounts of what potentially happens, he definitely seems quietly confident that Mary was innocent of the plot. I, myself, can't decide. Would love to discuss... (hide spoiler)]

I ordered this book a few weeks ago and it hasn’t been delivered yet. :(

Beth wrote: "I ordered this book a few weeks ago and it hasn’t been delivered yet. :("

Oh no Beth, what a shame! :( I’m sure we’ll still be discussing the book well past February anyways...

Ellen wrote: "Beth wrote: "I ordered this book a few weeks ago and it hasn’t been delivered yet. :("

Oh no Beth, what a shame! :( I’m sure we’ll still be discussing the book well past February anyways..."

Ellen, since a few people were delayed in starting because of delays in sourcing copies, would it be worthwhile doing the nominations and voting for the March/April group read now? That would hopefully let us get our copies by the beginning of March.

John wrote: "Ellen wrote: "Beth wrote: "I ordered this book a few weeks ago and it hasn’t been delivered yet. :("

Oh no Beth, what a shame! :( I’m sure we’ll still be discussing the book well past February any..."

Good idea, John. I'll send out a message soon!

Has the book changed any preconceived perceptions you might have had about Mary? Have you learnt new things?

I've just finished the book and I found my ideas of Mary challenged and much different to the woman that the English paint her. I have much more sympathy for her, I now think she much more naive than devious, and I don't believe her life's work was to overthrow/assassinate Elizabeth which was my perception before I read the book. (The character assassination from the English lives on! I'm a bit ashamed!)

I still love Elizabeth I as a monarch and now I've got to know Mary I think it's entirely possible to love them both. They're both imperfect but are also strong women who are utterly fascinating to read about.

Ellen wrote: " Has the book changed any preconceived perceptions you might have had about Mary? Have you learnt new things?

I've just finished the book and I found my ideas of Mary challenged and much differe..."

So fascinating reading your thoughts, Ellen. I haven't finished the book, but have read about Mary quite a bit. My perception of her has always come from the Scottish point of view so I am fascinated to hear about your English point of view and how the book gave you a different look. Personally, I love both Elizabeth and Mary!! I think Elizabeth was stuck and had to do what she did. And Mary was stuck too....

Yes! both such strong women. I think that's what fascinates me.

ReadingScotland wrote: "Ellen wrote: " Has the book changed any preconceived perceptions you might have had about Mary? Have you learnt new things?

I've just finished the book and I found my ideas of Mary challenged and..."

Glad you understand, was a bit embarrassed how badly informed I was!

Even though some of us have moved on to Mar/Apr group read, this thread is still open to discussion any time...

If you've finished the book, any final thoughts?

Do you feel you learned all about Mary Queen of Scots - or has it inspired you to look into her further?

What was your favourite historical event in the book? (I found the murder of Lord Darnley particularly fascinating and bizarre.)

Anything else you'd like to add?

For example, this slightly traumatised me:
(view spoiler)[ Did anyone else feel their heart break a little bit when the dog mourned his dead mistress and then pined away and died? That tiny bit of historical detail really hurt! (hide spoiler)]

Ellen wrote: "Even though some of us have moved on to Mar/Apr group read, this thread is still open to discussion any time...

If you've finished the book, any final thoughts?

Do you feel you learned all ab..."

I enjoyed the book and learned a lot about Mary, but I felt that a book of this size only scratched the surface of her life and left me wanting to learn more. (I can now understand why so many books have been written about Mary).
Like Ellen, I found the murder of Darnley a fascinating and bizarre episode, and I'll definitely read more on that.

While Mary was autocratic and willful, and made a great number of wrong choices, I felt a lot more sympathetic to her than I had previously. Unlike others I suspect, I finished the book with an even stronger dislike of the devious Elizabeth and Knox. And my already low opinion of Scottish "nobility" sunk even lower.

Not specifically relevant to this thread, but the author of this book, James A Mackay has also written a book about the establishment of the military base on St Kilda - Soldiering on St Kilda
I've bought a copy of it which I haven't yet read, but it might be of interest to some of the group members who are interested in St Kilda.

John wrote: "Ellen wrote: "Even though some of us have moved on to Mar/Apr group read, this thread is still open to discussion any time...

If you've finished the book, any final thoughts?

Do you feel you l..."

Great points, I like your summary. I softened a lot towards Mary and her naive mistakes too. If you do find any more books that brings to light Lord Darnleys murder, let me know. I'd love to learn more.