The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

We left Lucy and Charlotte making a mad dash for Rome after the scene among the violets. What a beautiful mental picture that scene makes. We don't really have any information about what happens in Rome, but rejoin Lucy once she has returned home. She has been proposed to for the third time by Cecil and has accepted. These chapters describe everyday life in Lucy's home area, paying particular attention to the local societal norms. The Emersons reappear by renting a house in the same town.

1. Beebe says "Mr. Vyse (Cecil) is an ideal bachelor...ok he's like me - better detached." (Chapter 8, pg 99). What does Forester mean by this?

2. Cecil sees the objects in a room as individual items, yet misses the effect which is created in its entirety. What does this say about him?

3. How would you describe Cecil's personality?

4. Why does Cecil connect to Lucy to a view? Why does he say Lucy connects him to a room? What does Forester mean?

5. From what does Cecil feel he is rescuing Lucy? Is he? Does she need to be rescued?

6. How has Italy changed Lucy?

7. Are events fated or coincidences? Why?

The switch from Italy to England was very abrupt. I kept thinking I had missed something. There is no real reason why Lucy agreed to marry Cecil except that she figured she had to marry someone. I wouldn't expect much happiness in that marriage (if it happens).

Robin wrote: "The switch from Italy to England was very abrupt. I kept thinking I had missed something. There is no real reason why Lucy agreed to marry Cecil except that she figured she had to marry someone. I ..."

I, too, feel they are very mismatched, and must admit to disliking him. His smugness is really irritating.

Although I too agree that it was an abrupt departure from Florence to Rome to England, I'm liking how Forster has laid out the narrative as such. Cecil isn't what Lucy is looking for and therefore the start of their doomed romance isn't something Forster wanted to spend time writing nor let readers waste time reading perhaps. Hence the quick jump to the home front.
I also like how Forster sets up Cecil, at the start, as the ideal Edwardian suitor, only to break his character apart immediately in the scenes that follow. He is not friendly with Lucy's brother, cannot stand her mother and the neighbors are beneath him. Worst, he wants to 'rescue' Lucy from what HE thinks is crushing her progress in life, as if she has no agency of her own.
Patronizing, but hilarious....in a way Charlotte is in mannerism.

"Ideal bachelor" and "better detached, like me." This being Forster, I first suspected he was implying that Cecil was a bit chilly in regards to the other sex as well. He certainly doesn't act like a man in love, more like a man making a purchase. He's marrying Lucy because it's what a man is supposed to do, and, like he (Cecil) believes, a woman is supposed to look up to him because he's a man.

His feelings (or lack of) aside, Cecil's personality is insufferable.

In the movie (if I remember correctly), the women see the men naked at the lake. I suppose they needed to add a bit more drama.

Lori wrote: ""Ideal bachelor" and "better detached, like me." This being Forster, I first suspected he was implying that Cecil was a bit chilly in regards to the other sex as well. He certainly doesn't act like..."

Or maybe it was forester’s only acceptable way to have some male nudity since he preferred men.

Lori wrote: ""Ideal bachelor" and "better detached, like me." This being Forster, I first suspected he was implying that Cecil was a bit chilly in regards to the other sex as well. He certainly doesn't act like..."

It was Daniel Day-Lewis' first film, or at least, the first time I saw him. Ironically, he just retired last month. And picture Judi Dench as Miss Lavish.

Deborah wrote: "Lori wrote: ""Ideal bachelor" and "better detached, like me." This being Forster, I first suspected he was implying that Cecil was a bit chilly in regards to the other sex as well. He certainly doe..."

It did seem that Forster enjoyed writing that scene with plenty of verve and detail.

It felt like Forster wanted to 'shock' the viewer/reader/general public with that scene. This scene and several hints throughout the book does point to the underlining homosexual tendencies of the author or his need to 'tell' someone about himself, find acceptance.
I also feel the way Cecil steered the ladies away quickly is another hit on the Edwardian ideas to 'avoid the unpleasantness' of the situation. But it was such a impact on Lucy, so different to the way she had hoped to 'meet' George, that the scene was anything but avoided, reflecting on how somethings just cannot be hidden or tucked away from the world (different sexual orientation).

Robin wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Lori wrote: ""Ideal bachelor" and "better detached, like me." This being Forster, I first suspected he was implying that Cecil was a bit chilly in regards to the other sex as well. ..."

Yes I was thinking that was the closest he could get to describing sexuality between men with their playfulness representing foreplay.

Piyumi wrote: "It felt like Forster wanted to 'shock' the viewer/reader/general public with that scene. This scene and several hints throughout the book does point to the underlining homosexual tendencies of the ..."

It does have quite an affect on Lucy. I don’t have the book in front of me at the moment, but she does say the lake is ruined for her forever.

Deborah wrote: "Piyumi wrote: "It felt like Forster wanted to 'shock' the viewer/reader/general public with that scene. This scene and several hints throughout the book does point to the underlining homosexual ten..."

Yes, that's precisely what she says.

Ok so why is the lake ruined for Lucy

Deborah wrote: "Ok so why is the lake ruined for Lucy"

The first thought that crossed my mind when I read that in the book was, she lost her 'control' her 'say' in the 'George situation' in this Lake. A minor thought that followed was because the gentlemen were naked.
But the first thought was the one that stands out strong.
Before she 'met' George the second time, she was hoping she stay indifferent to him, and so would take the situation in her hand to avoid any emotional pitfalls and most importantly prevent anyone from getting even a hint of the Lilac scene in Florence.
She was hoping to be 'in control' and when she meets him unexpected at her Sacred Lake, all is lost and therefore the Lake and hence Lucy's plan is 'ruined'.

Piyumi : "Ok so why is the lake ruined for Lucy"

The first thought that crossed my mind when I read that in the book was, she lost her 'control' her 'say' ' in this L..."

Thank you for your explanation, Piyumi!

Piyumi wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Ok so why is the lake ruined for Lucy"

The first thought that crossed my mind when I read that in the book was, she lost her 'control' her 'say' in the 'George situation' in this L..."

That is a beautiful explanation for a well thought question, Piyumi. Thank you for the explanation. I read the book sometime ago. But I'm sure I didn't think of the situation quite in that light.

Cecil is a picky perfectionist. He has such airs and thinks that just by being a male he has to lead and direct women.

4. Why does Cecil connect to Lucy to a view? Why does he say Lucy connects him to a room?
I think because Lucy is so pretty that he connects her to nature. Women are often connected to nature and portrayed in a mother nature way in paintings and art. Lucy connects Cecil to a room because his personality confines her. The Emersons are the ones that free her.

5. From what does Cecil feel he is rescuing Lucy? Is he? Does she need to be rescued?

He feels he is rescuing her from the traits and habits of the lower uneducated class. She doesn't need to be rescued. She has adapted herself to the local community just fine after returning from abroad.

6. How has Italy changed Lucy?
She thinks more for herself and is aware of her feelings.

JJ wrote: "Cecil is a picky perfectionist. He has such airs and thinks that just by being a male he has to lead and direct women.

4. Why does Cecil connect to Lucy to a view? Why does he say Lucy connects hi..."

Lucy is definitely confined by Cecil, society, her mother, and Charlotte.

Lori wrote: ""Ideal bachelor" and "better detached, like me." This being Forster, I first suspected he was implying that Cecil was a bit chilly in regards to the other sex as well. He certainly doesn't act like..."

Also, Cecil was described as a Gothic statue:
"...“A Gothic statue implies celibacy, just as a Greek statue implies fruition, and perhaps this was what Mr. Beebe meant..."

Mr. Beebe didn't really approve of Cecil for Lucy. He may have sensed that Cecil would not truly love her.

Bonnie wrote: "Lori wrote: ""Ideal bachelor" and "better detached, like me." This being Forster, I first suspected he was implying that Cecil was a bit chilly in regards to the other sex as well. He certainly doe..."

Mr Beebe kept waiting for Lucy to make her inner and outer lives one