Navigating Indieworld Discussing All Things Indie discussion

Many indies think it would be wonderful to get our books into brick and mortar stores locally if not across the country. Of course, the fact our books are, with few exceptions, non-returnable makes that unlikely to happen. (What I'm saying is, for those who are unfamiliar with industry practices, is that in general, bookstores can't return indie books to the publisher (say, to CreateSpace) whereas unsold books ordered from legacy publishers can be returned for credit.)

Given the above, you can imagine how surprised I was when the owner of a local bookstore with two outlets reached out to me and invited me to a meeting to discuss placing some of my books with them as well as participating in their program of events. They also were kind enough to send a copy of the contract I would be asked to sign. For reasons you'll see below, I declined to attend the meeting and have no intention of working with them.

Here are my reasons (the emphasis is mine):

1. Participation requires a fee of $15 for participation in the program, per store (remember, there are TWO stores)
2. Only THREE titles will be carried by the stores
3. The author will receive 60% of the retail price set vs. 40% for the stores
4. The author MUST participate in the Local Author Partnership Program
5. They take NO responsibility for lost, stolen, or damaged books

So, basically, ALL the risk is on the author and, more importantly, the economics make no sense. To wit, consider the following example:

My illustrated storybooks cost me roughly $6 from the printer (shipping included). The books sell on Amazon.com for $12 ($11.99), not including shipping. I’d have to sell these books for that price in your bookshop, which means I would receive $7.20, leaving me with $1.20 profit per book. I would have to sell 12 books at each store just to break after paying the $15 processing fee per store (and, on top of that, I'd have to pay taxes on the profits!). And did I mention the fact that participation in their Local Author Partnership Program would require traveling some distance to their stores (45-minute drive, each way, to both) plus time spent at an event?

You do the math! Unless you're looking to make a name for yourself locally and have the time for something like this, I can't see any benefit in such a relationship. Which is sad, considering the many good books produced by indies and the state of the independent bookstore business today.

The participation fee surprises me a little, although it probably shouldn't. The 40% discount, return policy, and lost/stolen/damaged policy are industry standard and why POD books generally cannot be placed in bookstores.

My situation is a little different, because I own a traditional publishing company, albeit a small one. We do small print runs of our books (not POD), so we get them for relatively cheap. ($6 would be a fairly expensive book for us, although some of our larger ones have cost about that much.) We can afford to sell them to stores and distributors at a 40% discount, or even a 50% discount in certain cases. We can accept returns. I've done signings at a local indie bookstore and at a local B&N, although those events usually don't sell more than 4 or 5 copies. My books have stayed on store shelves for a short time after a signing, but they don't sell.

That's the real problem for bookstores as well as authors. The competition for shelf space is fierce. The store doesn't particularly care that there are scads of good indie titles. They care that nobody knows who the authors are, so nobody is looking for their books, so their books will just take up valuable shelf space gathering dust rather than making money for anyone. Alas, that's just the reality of it. Getting a book onto a store shelf usually doesn't translate into sales for an unknown author.

Worse, indie bookstores often have trouble selling books to begin with. I've talked with one bookstore owner and one employee at another store, both of whom said that they make most of their money in non-book merchandise (clothing, calendars, and specialty items). Amazon has cut into their sales so much that one store had to reduce the floor space devoted to books from one half to one quarter. The store owner said she sold all the other stuff so she could afford to sell a few books. (That is, the books were a money-loser for her, but she wanted to provide them anyway.)

My experience is the same as Ted's. For the most part, book stores don't make sense for indie authors, either from the author's standpoint or from the store's standpoint. The only case it does is if you can get into a store for a signing or other event without laying out any money up front. Then you might talk to a few people, you might sell a copy or three, you might get some names for your email list, and you might get invited back for another event. But don't expect miracles.

The best bet is to change your name to Stephen King and hope nobody notices that you aren't him. ;-)

Dale wrote: "The participation fee surprises me a little, although it probably shouldn't. The 40% discount, return policy, and lost/stolen/damaged policy are industry standard and why POD books generally cannot..."

Good points, Dale.

In the case of my $6 books, these are 52-page, full color, illustrated children's storybooks in verse, as professional (in my humble and biased opinion) as anything you'll find out there...and with healthy messages to boot (anti-bullying, empathy, listen to Mama).

But you are correct. Another bookstore in the area was totally unimpressed with the fact that one of my books is one of two in the local high school's Core Genre (Mystery) Reading Program (the other book is Witness for the Prosecution) or that I lecture on mystery writing at that school (guest lecturer). "Who are you?" was the response I got, when I approached them.

Here's another example of just how cost-ineffective a relationship such as that I discussed above would be, this time on a non-book entity.

I sell stuffed penguins (8-inches high) that cost me $1.20 to the door, shipping included. (I have them running all over the house right now (;>)) Let's say I sell them for $3.00 in the bookstore (alongside my book, Pepe [the penguin] Builds a Nest). Now, 60% of $3.00 obviously is $1.80, so I net $0.60. Big whup! What happens if some kid or parent steals or soils/tears one by playing with it or dropping it on the floor? My loss.

Again, what's the big deal in selling a one, two, or even ten penguins. The economics aren't there, no matter how you slice and dice it.

Ted,

$6 for that sounds good. Are you getting those books POD or doing a print run? We'll be doing a run of about 300 full color children's books shortly, 24 pages as I recall, for $3 and some odd cents per copy. Our problem is we have to pay an artist for the illustrations, which is going to make the books a tad pricey. But the text is superb and the illustrations gorgeous. The artist is a former coworker of mine who gives us very low prices compared to what one would normally pay.

Dale wrote: "Ted,

$6 for that sounds good. Are you getting those books POD or doing a print run? We'll be doing a run of about 300 full color children's books shortly, 24 pages as I recall, for $3 and some odd..."

My books are POD. The "illustrations" really are color photographs to which I have purchased the rights and which I have digitally altered to appear as color pencil drawings. You can see examples on the LookInside feature on the Webpages for each of the three books:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01NAQ9IDZ

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N5T2F07

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06WP365XJ

The penguin book also comes in Spanish and French paperback editions.

Good luck with your books. At $3 per copy, that leaves you plenty of room to profit.

Even the big book stores aren't making it anymore. In our town, the two biggest (and only) book stores, Hastings and Borders, are now gone after "going out of business". I did notice that much of the merchandise at these stores, and Barnes and Noble in the next town over, had become non-book stuff.

In Ted's scenario in the first post, the prices and requirements seem reasonable enough to me. Unfortunately most indie books will not break even with that model, so there doesn't seem to be much point in trying. That being said, I have paid more money on different marketing schemes for only mediocre exposure, so $30 does not seem bad in the grand scheme of things, if one's goal is to get books into a physical store.

Marie Silk wrote: "Even the big book stores aren't making it anymore. In our town, the two biggest (and only) book stores, Hastings and Borders, are now gone after "going out of business". I did notice that much of t..."

I guess it's all a matter of what one wants to pay for their 15 minutes of fame. (;>)

Theodore wrote: "My books are POD. ..."

In that case, it sounds like you get a reasonably good deal on them. Thanks for the info and the links.

Dale wrote: "Theodore wrote: "My books are POD. ..."

In that case, it sounds like you get a reasonably good deal on them. Thanks for the info and the links."

I'm not complaining about the price I pay for my books, given the quality that CreateSpace provides. I initially had a problem with their reproduction of the blue tint I was using on the Pepe cover, but once I substituted a blue with no RED in the RGB numbers, the problem went away. It all had to do with the subtractive process they use in the printing process.

I paid a local bookstore monthly"real estate" to carry some of our books. My books sold well, but after the monthly charges and their cut- I realized I was losing money and pulled the books.

Carole wrote: "I paid a local bookstore monthly"real estate" to carry some of our books. My books sold well, but after the monthly charges and their cut- I realized I was losing money and pulled the books."

After my recent eye-opener, I'm not surprised. Sad.

Very few options and the pool is getting smaller

One of the indie bookstores where I live charges authors a fee for book signings. I had never heard of that before. I've done signings where I had to bring my own books - I can live with that - but for me to pay them for the privilege of selling in their store? Uh, no. There are a number of indie bookstores here in the metro area, but my experience has been that they are not welcoming to self-published authors.

Yeah, in the words of the late, great Rodney Dangerfield, we don't get no respect.

LOL! Yes, I am definitely feeling Rodney-Dangerfieldish! :-)

I need to remember this useful thread. My books are still all eBooks but I am making slow progress towards getting them in print and then the really hard works starts, as you all know better than I do.

Thanks for sharing everyone.

Really interesting thread...

I'm an indi author in several local bookstores, but I made my books returnable via the wholesaler (Ingram in my case). It seems to be industry practice. So far, I haven't seen many returns, so in practice, it hasn't been problematic.

My own experience with signings...doing them is critical to support sales, but bookstores are often disinclined to support unknown authors with unproven ability to draw customers since such events can be a distracting nuisance to staff and customers. You’ll need to convince bookstore managers that you’ll sell enough books to make it worth their while without disrupting the store’s normal business activities. Some stores will never agree to host you, so focus on more friendly venues. Conversely, conventions or book fairs may be quite welcoming to neophyte authors, but costs for tables and booths can range from several hundred to several thousand dollars. You’ll need to consider whether the exposure is worth it.

At your bookstore signing, assume that customers are keen on going about their business and aren’t necessarily eager to spend time learning about anything that’s not a bestseller. Therefore, be approachable and ready to engage with potential readers. In a busy bookstore, if possible, don’t just sit behind the table and wait for the world to approach you. Instead stand in front of the table (thereby removing a physical and psychological barrier) and invite folks to give you a few seconds of their time to introduce your work to them. However, do it gently; no one likes a pest. If someone expresses no interest in you or your book, back off. Try to strike the right balance between overbearing salesmanship and passivity and also accept the inherent awkwardness of trying to interest total strangers in your work. After all, why the hell should anyone buy it? You’ll need to articulate a cogent reason at the signing.

In addition - really important - don’t invite family and friends along for moral support. They already know about the book and seeing you surrounded by a phalanx of family well-wishers will inhibit communication with your real audience: potential readers who don’t know you or your work from a hole in the ground.

Great response, Peter. Our local bookstore had a group of indie authors participate in a group signing. There were about ten of us, but we didn't get a great showing. Nobody had much in the way of social media to draw people in and I was the only one who paid for an ad in the local newspaper. There weren't enough customers for me to want to do it again. I've done one book fair and another signing in a toy store and both times it was more trouble than it was worth. I paid that bookstore to stock our books. They had a rule that you had to pay for the real estate. It's the biggest bookstore on Long Island and always has signings going on. I know my books sold well, but I ultimately lost money and eventually pulled the books.

Hey Carole,

I have a blog (don't we all!). Mine touches on some of my experience in the indi author book biz including signing/readings (in more detail than what I have above), the utility of book reviews, etc. Might be helpful to the rest of the folks on this thread. Am I allowed to include a link here?

Cheers, Peter

We are a pretty relaxed group, Peter. Share away. :)

Thanks! See link below.

It's a bit a mixture of posts on indi book marketing (including signings/readings) interspersed with book reviews of books from 'name' authors. Hope that it's helpful - I try to keep a bone dry sense of humor throughout.

https://blaisdellliteraryenterprises....

Nice blog.

I do book signings in local libraries--and have my books in one local bookstore. They were kind enough to pay me up front for one copy of each book. I gave them an 8 X 11 poster advertising the books. It's a free market economy, and you will get different deals from different folks.
I should add here--I'm not trying to make money by having my books in local bookstores--or in libraries, where I give a signed copy of each book to each library when I do my reading--I'm marketing, getting my name and my work out there.

My experience in New Zealand was far worse, I would have had to pay for 7000 dollars to get 1000 books printed for a price of $7.00 each that is a big cost for each of my five books.

My distributor said my book would have to sell at $20 or less to be competitive and many of my books have alot of photos.

I sent them out to bookstores all the independents and they are not interested, and furthermore Lonely Planet has exclusivity deals with my local bookstore.

Hm

Carole wrote: "Great response, Peter. Our local bookstore had a group of indie authors participate in a group signing. There were about ten of us, but we didn't get a great showing. Nobody had much in the way of ..."

I am glad I have not bothered with New York bookstores emailled out 1500 emails not one response .

I think book festivals and readers and writers festivals I gave that a go in Australia and got a great response.

I will get you the lists later.

Great!