Victorians! discussion

My apologies everyone! I've fallen behind a bit. I will try and publish the summary for this week later today. In the meantime, here is the folder to start the discussion for week 4.

Both Osborne and Roger Hamley are regular guests at the Gibsons. Roger is taken in by the charms of Cynthia, and poor Molly gets mostly overlooked like a little wallflower.

The girls get invited by the Browning sisters for a social and a round game (gambling.) At first Mrs. Gibson tries to prevent their going saying the girls were not “out” yet. But she is soon persuaded. Cynthia conveniently “forgets” her purse and has to borrow money from Molly.

At Hamley Hall things are not going well. The family mourns the loss of Mrs. Hamley, and we get a glimpse how much she was the center and heart of the family and the estate. Now, without her, no one has found their footing yet. The Squire’s grief keeps him from pursuing the necessary work of the estate, and projects have come to a halt. The ongoing tension with son Osborne doesn’t help.
Osborne ponders how he could make a living for himself and his absent wife. He decides to publish his poems and does some editing work. We finally find out why he went into debt: the cottage his wife lives in now is furnished with the finest furniture. Was this justified?

Mrs. Gibson hosts a dinner for Osborne and Roger, which is a trial for Molly. For after-dinner entertainment first Cynthia plays a little French ditty on the piano with the words:

You’ll be sorry Colin
You’ll come to repent;
For if you take a wife, Colin
You’ll certainly repent.

With Osborne standing right there! Yikes!
This is followed by Molly having to play a demanding piece by the German composer Friedrich Kalkbrenner. She sits down at the piano "to her martyrdom." If you want to know what this may have sounded like, here is a random piece I found on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uMc1... Personally, this is the first time I’ve ever heard of this composer. It’s always interesting to what kinds of books or composers/music authors incorporate into their novels.

The big social event of the year in the Hollingford area is the Charity Ball. Everyone attends and the Gibson’s are in full preparation. Two bouquets are delivered from the Hamleys, and to Molly’s chagrin Cynthia takes Molly’s apart to adorn her hair with. A third bouquet arrives from Mr. Preston, and Cynthia carelessly throws it in the fire. Mr. Preston is not pleased once they meet him at the ball.
The country folk are having a grand time dancing and being merry. Mrs. Gibson is not quite pleased to be in such proximity of common folk. Everyone is waiting for the grand entrance of the Lord and Lady Cumnor who have a duchess as a guest and expectantly wait to see her adorned in diamonds. It is midnight before they arrive, and the duchess is dressed in a drab dress sans diamonds.
Molly is having a good time, dancing almost every dance, even though “mamma” isn’t quite pleased she mingles with all those commoners.

As always, there was a lot more in these pages than the few things I picked out here.

Kerstin, to open the debate, you ask:
Was this justified that Osborne furnished the cottage his wife lives in now with the finest furniture?
For us, nowadays, the answer is: no.

But for Osborne, I guess he couldn't even have imagined doing another way.

Osborne Hamley is entangled in the position he is supposed to hold in society, in his family, and in the family he created for himself.
Osborne is the first born on whom rest the Hamley family of Hamley Hall: he is the heir, the one who will run the estate, and everyone hopes he will be able to run it better than his father! And maybe the good old Squire himself hopes it too, because he is not stupid and knows his own limits: he didn’t make good calculations on the future. As Osborne had a fashionable physique, was a person of refined taste, liked literature, which was a sign of intelligence at the time, but to which his father is hermetic; everyone came to the conclusion that he was clever and would be able manage the family's wealth. Osborne is a good boy: he loves his family, his brother, and even his father; we can also see that he married the woman he loves, knowing that he would be disapproved.
But Osborne is not a resourceful guy. And his education didn’t push him to be either. Certainly, you think, now he should do something, find a solution! But I don’t think he can.

Osborne’s character makes me think of Armand, the lover of La Dame aux Camélias, Alexandre Dumas son's novel. Armand lives with his father's money, without working. He keeps Marguerite until their financial resources are exhausted, without seeking to earn money by honest work. Armand feels so much above a common job that he cannot even imagine making a living by the way everyone else does. In a way, he prefers to let his situation die rather than to take control of himself.

It is simply inconceivable for an Armand or an Osborne to "descend" at the level of ordinary mortals. Osborne realizes that his poems are not worth much, but it's the only work that would not get his hands dirty.
As for the beautiful furniture of his wife's cottage, it’s one more proof that Osborne is a good man: he can offer to his kind and loving wife only a clandestine life; a life very much like that of a vulgar mistress he would have hidden. At least he doesn’t want to treat her poorly. She doesn’t eat as well as he eats at Hamley Hall, so offering his wife fine furniture is a small compensation which allows him not to demean himself in her opinion.

I like your comment! Especially that Osborne is not a resourceful guy. He appears rather helpless, doesn't he? Earlier in the novel he airs his frustration of being locked in into certain expectations for him, which he wants to escape. Trouble is, he doesn't really know how to go about it and doesn't think of the cost to himself and his family. He charges ahead in youthful passion, forgetting his studies his family is paying for, and creates a mess. Isn't this an all-too-common tale! Now he rather lives a double life than own up to it. He needs to get his head on straight!

I think Gaskell is pointing out here that men are locked into expectations as well. It isn't just women who have limited options. The nature of the expectations may be different, but when you are like Osborne, not really suited for running an estate, he is just as trapped as a woman whose only goal is to make a good match.

Kerstin wrote: "I like your comment! Especially that Osborne is not a resourceful guy. He appears rather helpless, doesn't he? Earlier in the novel he airs his frustration of being locked in into certain expectati..."

True- but while Osborne may well want to escape from his position, he has no inclination to actually do anything to earn a living either- which I find somewhat contradictory.

He had had no qualms about spending what he thought he was entitled to but when it comes to giving back, that is doing his duty by his family, he wants to escape. He may have not been cut out to do it but that he should also have considered when using the advantages that came with it.

I enjoyed the charity ball chapter- the hustle and bustle, preparations, and finally the dancing- but the mystery of the Kirkpatricks' connection with Mr Preston only deepens.

I really felt for the squire in this instalment- he mayn't be the perfect person, but that he feels so lost without his wife, so unable to do anything, and with an heir who can't quite understand him, one can't help but feel sorry for him, and perhaps not fault him so much for flying off the handle over Hollingford's invitation.

And speaking of Hollingford, Mrs Gibson carries on with her self-centredness this time and I see she's imaging herself as Hollingford's future mother-in-law. It was interesting that though she hoped it had been Cynthia with whom he were taken, she doesn't mind as much as I'd expected that it was Molly- ultimately it is what advantage she can get from it.

Lady Clementina wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "I like your comment! Especially that Osborne is not a resourceful guy. He appears rather helpless, doesn't he? Earlier in the novel he airs his frustration of being locked in into c..."

I agree. There is a disconnect with him. He has a strong sense of entitlement mixed with a heavy dose of immaturity. When he stands by the fireplace and thinks things over I got the feeling he is lethargic - not really resourceful as Gabrielle pointed out.

Lady Clementina wrote: "And speaking of Hollingford, Mrs Gibson carries on with her self-centredness this time and I see she's imaging herself as Hollingford's future mother-in-law. It was interesting that though she hoped it had been Cynthia with whom he were taken, she doesn't mind as much as I'd expected that it was Molly- ultimately it is what advantage she can get from it. "

It underscores again that she has very little maternal instincts. Usually in situations like this you have the portrayal of the mother favoring her own children to that of her step-children.

Kerstin wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "And speaking of Hollingford, Mrs Gibson carries on with her self-centredness this time and I see she's imaging herself as Hollingford's future mother-in-law. It was interest..."

Precisely- in her case it is me me me.

Thank you , Kerstin, for the reference to the music Molly was forced to play after Cynthia's rather simplistic ditty. Of course, this had a secondary purpose, in that Osborne had to listen to something that may well be portraying his situation fairly well. We do not know really how he views this alliance. Although he throws money at his wife's accommodation and visits, the important thing is for her to be acknowledged. This is unlikely to occur, and in the meantime Osborne flirts happily at the Gibsons'. The music, which is playing while I write, is far more sophisticated than Cynthia's contribution to the evening. It also must keep Molly from exchanging any looks with her audience - she is nicely controlled under Mrs Gibson's affecting to treat her equally.

Mrs Gibson certainly has no maternal instincts. And she is not happy with being a married woman with no economic problems. She wants more - and this is a step up into a different class. She is happy to use her daughters to accomplish this, rather in the mode in which royalty and the aristocracy effected liaisons to ensure continuing power, political and economic. Of course, we should recognise that a more kindly developed character is also keen to ensure that liaisons are made to ensure economic and class distinctions remain intact. The squire is guilty of exactly the same offence! he wants his sons to marry to suit their situation - and enjoins Mr Gibson to assist him in this . And yet - do we accuse the Squire of lacking paternal instinct?

Robin wrote: "Thank you , Kerstin, for the reference to the music Molly was forced to play after Cynthia's rather simplistic ditty. Of course, this had a secondary purpose, in that Osborne had to listen to somet..."

Re the Squire's expectations, there is a difference don't you think- Mrs Gibson is thinking in terms of personal advantages while the Squire is perhaps more concerned from the social perspective- expectations, duty, perhaps in a way what will be "good" for Osborne and the property even if he doesn't think so.

there seems to be a theme of men falling for unsuitable women - first Mr Gibson, then Osborne and his secret wife, now Roger is falling for Cynthia who 'likes him well enough', but certainly doesn't return his love...

Robin wrote: "Mrs Gibson certainly has no maternal instincts. And she is not happy with being a married woman with no economic problems. She wants more - and this is a step up into a different class. She is happy to use her daughters to accomplish this, rather in the mode in which royalty and the aristocracy effected liaisons to ensure continuing power, political and economic"

I hadn't thought of that, and you are right, she wants more. She doesn't exhibit any contentment and gratitude to what has been given to her already.

Lady Clementina wrote: "Re the Squire's expectations, there is a difference don't you think- Mrs Gibson is thinking in terms of personal advantages while the Squire is perhaps more concerned from the social perspective- expectations, duty, perhaps in a way what will be "good" for Osborne and the property even if he doesn't think so. "

The Squire is very proud of his heritage and that the estate has survived for so long and managed prudently over the centuries. He wants this legacy to continue.

Kerstin wrote: "I like your comment! Especially that Osborne is not a resourceful guy. He appears rather helpless, doesn't he? Earlier in the novel he airs his frustration of being locked in into certain expectati..."

Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, Kerstin!

Lady Clementina wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "I like your comment! Especially that Osborne is not a resourceful guy. He appears rather helpless, doesn't he? Earlier in the novel he airs his frustration of being locked in into c..."

"but while Osborne may well want to escape from his position, he has no inclination to actually do anything to earn a living either- which I find somewhat contradictory"

Lady, I have a 18 yo son, who is in University, in second year, learning maths and computer things. I'm not rich at all, and my son has always wanted to be rich. He worked very well at school and keeps on working in University. But... he's very lazy about finding a summer job to earn money!
So as you say, it's contradictory, but it exists, I have an example at home! (A wonderful example whom I admire and love! ;) )

Robin wrote: "Thank you , Kerstin, for the reference to the music Molly was forced to play after Cynthia's rather simplistic ditty. Of course, this had a secondary purpose, in that Osborne had to listen to somet..."

I think that if we don't accuse the Squire of lacking paternal instinct, it's because, when he wants his sons to marry ladies not under his social position, it's not for him, it's for them. He thinks, (we're allowed nowadays to think he's wrong), the Squire thinks that his sons can be happy only by gettong married with ladies having a family, a name, money.
While Mrs Gibson wants her daughter to have a rich husband from the high society, not for her, but for herself. As Lady Clementina says : " in her case it is me me me", beacuse, as Kerstin says: "she has very little maternal instincts", I would have say: "she has no maternal instincts."
And this is something so difficult to believe for me, as a mother.

I absolutely agree with you, Robin: it seems that marrying Gibson, is for Clare-Hyacinth just one more step to a higher class.

Nina wrote: "there seems to be a theme of men falling for unsuitable women - first Mr Gibson, then Osborne and his secret wife, now Roger is falling for Cynthia who 'likes him well enough', but certainly doesn'..."

You're right, Nina. The advantage if men were falling for suitable women, would be that the story would be quickly finished, and the book would be lighter! :)
How heavy is this book in French for my poor ill hands bones! (I hope my English is understandable, here!) For French language uses more words than English: a quarter more, I guess...

Lady Clementina wrote: "I enjoyed the charity ball chapter- the hustle and bustle, preparations, and finally the dancing- but the mystery of the Kirkpatricks' connection with Mr Preston only deepens.

I enjoyed the ball too, it was a great scene with almost all the characters 'on stage' together. What a snob Mrs Gibson is! keeping aloof from the 'common' folk while she waits to 'attach herself to the skirts of the Towers party'.

Nina wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "I enjoyed the charity ball chapter- the hustle and bustle, preparations, and finally the dancing- but the mystery of the Kirkpatricks' connection with Mr Preston only deepen..."I am on chapter 25. Not quite done with this week's assignment. So now we know a little about the woman Osbourne married. She is apparently a sweet young Catholic French woman. Osbourne thinks his father would like her for her personality but not for the country she is from nor her religion. I think he should fess up anyway even if his father gets angry. I don't think the squire is completely heartless. On the contrary, I see him as being quite kind hearted when given a chance. In this situation, I am reminded of the thought that when people really care for one another such as Osbourne and the Squire do, their relationship can survive all kinds of trials. If Osbourne could be truthful about his wife, I think the Squire would be angry at first but at least he would know that Osbourne has not been gambling away all the money. That might soften him up a bit, even make him want to bring Osbourne's wife to England.

I did enjoy the part about the ball too. I could picture the whole thing! Still, there's that mystery about Preston. It appears that he was interested in Cynthia and was rejected. I thought it was hilarious that the dutchess showed up late and in drab dress. I could just imagine all these magpies waiting around to see the jewels and then being disappointed. Haha! Serves them right! I wonder if the dutchess did it just for spite.

I am glad to see that Gaskell is not only writing about the limitations of society on women but on men as well.

It’s easy from a 21st century perspective to criticize Osborne for his early 19th century limitations. For a first son of the Gentry to have an occupation or be expected to do anything beyond dealing with matters of the estate was a radical notion which Squire Hamley would have been horrified to contemplate. It was the second son Roger who would have to make his way in the world and in a limited range of occupational choices: the clergy, or the military, preferably.

Such was the grip of primogeniture. Since the property was entailed, even had he wanted to leave it to Roger who would have been the son who better would be able to run the estate, the Squire would not have had the legal power to do so.

Think of the puzzlement in which Lord Hollingford’s scientific interests are regarded by everyone around him except Roger. As a first born heir to an Earl, it was his expected duty to carry forward the family interests in the county and in Parliament as a Whig.The fact that he had no desire nor interest in serving in Parliament was of no importance.

To answer Kerstin question, I completely agree with Gabrielle -- in today's world the answer would be absolutely no but Osborne does not know how to do things any differently. Osborne has been raised to be the heir of the family -- to him -- it is just what you buy without thinking about it.
I was hoping Molly and Roger would one day be brought together but it seems like Roger and Cynthia have found their match. "He fell most prone and abject". Roger and Cynthia "had to be called twice before they came" to dinner. Cynthia said "there's something one likes about him", (Roger). Roger told Molly, "Osborne and I shall always consider you are like a sister to us". The beginning of a budding romance.
Osborne did have certain expectations put upon him. He was suppose to lead him family onto the next generation. He was put on a high pedestal -- he was suppose to be "the best of the best" in everything. The Hamley's did not care about what Roger ended up doing in his life. Roger was second best. But instead Osborne chooses to secretly marry Aimee, who is a French women. And as Mrs. Gibson had Cynthia sing "that little French ballad" which is "a pretty, playful little warning to young men". Osborne must have been cringing.
I absolutely loved the chapter A Charity Ball. The hustle and bustle of everyone getting ready. the waiting for the duchess to come out with her wonderful dress and diamonds. Cynthia throwing Mr. Preston flowers into the fire. The mysterious relationship between Mr. Preston and Cynthia. Molly and Cynthia enjoying the ball. The introduction of Lord Hollingford to Molly. Molly found him "strangely stupid in understanding the mystery of the Cross hand dance" but "felt ease with him" when he "confided to her his reluctance at having to dance at all". But then "they got into very pleasant conversation". This might be the beginning of a relationship for Molly. But Mr. Coxe could always come back(?).
There is nothing good to say about Clare/Hyacinth, Mrs. Gibson, at this point. She has proven herself as a social climber. And she does not care which daughter get's her higher on the social ladder. She simply does not possess any maternal feelings towards her daughters.
Robin is absolutely right. I really did not think about Mr. Gibson's paternal instincts to protect his daughter from Clare. He has not been on my radar during this part of the reading. He is basically out there some where seeing patients. I guess I gave him an excuse of not being around because of the time period the novel is taking place. His character expectations was to let his wife take over the "household duties" and raise the kids.
Happy reading everyone!

Gabrielle wrote: "Nina wrote: "there seems to be a theme of men falling for unsuitable women - first Mr Gibson, then Osborne and his secret wife, now Roger is falling for Cynthia who 'likes him well enough', but cer..."

Gabrielle -- I think your English is quite wonderful and understandable!

As far as the Duchess and her diamonds go, I think that she was dodging her role whether out of spite or fatigue. It wasn’t unreasonable for the attendees to expect some glitz on a red carpet occasion that is the highlight of the annual social calendar of three villages. What would people have said if Elizabeth Taylor had shown up at the Oscars in a TShirt, cut offs and flip flops without any makeup?

Cynthia is a peculiar person. It seems like she knows more about other people than is common. I think she can guess what Molly feels about Roger.

Laurene wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Nina wrote: "there seems to be a theme of men falling for unsuitable women - first Mr Gibson, then Osborne and his secret wife, now Roger is falling for Cynthia who 'likes him wel..."

Thanks, Laurene!
And I agree with you about Clare-Hyacinth. Unless Mr Gibson dies and she becomes once again a widow, she cannot climb higher on the social ladder... unless Cynthia or Molly marry someone higher than doctor Gibson.
Let's imagine Cynthia succeeds: Hyacinth will be considered as a good mother who managed to raise her daughter the best she could: this would mean: OK, Hyacinth, younger, you were as beautiful, kind and clever as your daughter, if you had had a mother like yourself, you could have marry better than a doctor.
If Molly makes a good wedding, it's also a good thing for Hyacinth: It will be thanks to her, the fair step-mother, who arrived in the Gibson family just when Molly was 16 and needed a mother to guide her!
Hyacinth certainly doesn't care about both young girls happiness; she cares about what her marriages could bring her.
And, please, Roger, not Cynthia! :( All your cheer readers, here, support you! :)

Charlotte wrote: "Cynthia is a peculiar person. It seems like she knows more about other people than is common. I think she can guess what Molly feels about Roger."

Cynthia is indeed a particular person, Charlotte. I think she really loves Molly, but she's too selfish to let her "have" Roger if she pleases him herself. Maybe she just can't say no to a man. Maybe she'd like to be a person as good as Molly and doctor Gibson, but she just can't... for the moment, let's wait and see.

Gabrielle wrote:

Cynthia is indeed a particular ..."

I don’t think Molly has told Cynthia that she has feelings for Roger and she hasn’t even given a hint at it. Cynthia thinks Roger is plain etc. (Forgot what she said.) I am not sure she really likes him.

Charlotte wrote: "Gabrielle wrote:

Cynthia is indeed a particular ..."

I don’t think Molly has told Cynthia that she has feelings for Roger and she hasn’t even given a hint at it. Cynthia thinks Roger is plain etc..."
I didn't express myself clearly enough.
You're right, Molly didn't say to anyone what she felt about about Roger. What I meant, is: even if Cynthia knew that Molly loved Roger (which no one knows, neither Molly or us), I don't think Cynthia would have care, even if, I think, she sincerely loves Molly.

Gabrielle wrote: "Laurene wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Nina wrote: "there seems to be a theme of men falling for unsuitable women - first Mr Gibson, then Osborne and his secret wife, now Roger is falling for Cynthia wh..."

Absolutely!

Gabrielle wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "Gabrielle wrote:

Cynthia is indeed a particular ..."

I don’t think Molly has told Cynthia that she has feelings for Roger and she hasn’t even given a hint at it. Cynthia thinks ..."

I think she truly loves Molly also. Molly is actually the only person who truly cares about her.

Having caught up with the reading section now and after reading all the comments here, I'd like to address a few points raised in the posts here.

In trying to understand Osborne's situation, I think he is a product of his time, who was loved and coddled with the expectation of duty and given every advantage that it entitled him as the first born and heir of Hamley Hall, to act the way he did.

I get the feeling that he wasn't denied much due to this fact. Hence, his smart clothes and the expensive furniture for his wife despite running up his debts. He was expected to maintain an image and I suppose, heirs running debts is not an uncommon thing in those days. I don't think a lot of boys like him were money-smart anyway. And, unfortunately for the Squire, Osborne was not taught otherwise.

Like Martin says in his posts, Osborne was never meant to work, really, other than off the land that he would inherit upon his father's death. And he never much cared for the land anyway, so is easier to part with it than the squire would have liked I suppose.

I think this is what becomes the main grievance with the squire, because he sees that Osborne's debts are held with the promise he made to his creditors that the timber from the land is to be used to pay them off. And then to see the creditors looming about his property evaluating, estimating (his death) and remarking that the timber is not worth a lot etc. etc., and then to see Osborne seemingly unperturbed by the situation, deckout out everyday in his finest clothes (causing him to be late for dinner), rushing off to the city etc. etc., I mean, you can see why the Squire is not in good terms with Osborne.

It doesn't mean that he doesn't love his son; just that he is so angry at how irresponsible he really is (can't really fault him here though). In some ways, I do believe that the Squire feels guilty that he failed his legacy. That feeling must be the cause of many a sleepless nights. I feel sorry for the Squire but at the same time, I think there is some fault on his part.

And yet, Osborne, not appearing to share the emotion given the romantic fool that he is, has gone and made the situation far worse(!) by marrying this poor French and orphaned woman, who has no money or any means, period. Yikes.

He is not so ignorant of his father's reaction knowing his opinion of the French, and he is not completely oblivious either to his father's opinion on exactly the kind of woman he should marry. But despite all that, he goes and does the one thing he knows he will not find the nerve to tell his father about - his marriage.

I think what this family lacks is open communication between parent and child but again, not uncommon for that time-period; unfortunately, growing up in a strict household with a stubborn father does have its consequences. We are seeing the outcome of one such one in Osborne's situation. That's why I can't really fault Osborne either for not understanding the situation or reacting to the Squire better.

Had he married a rich woman like his father intended for him, the money that it would have brought in would definitely have aided in clearing his debts. But Osborne let his heart rule over his head and is now deeper down the hole as a result. He's made some unwise choices.

Kerstin says: "He charges ahead in youthful passion, forgetting his studies his family is paying for, and creates a mess. Isn't this an all-too-common tale! … I think Gaskell is pointing out here that men are locked into expectations as well. It isn't just women who have limited options. The nature of the expectations may be different, but when you are like Osborne, not really suited for running an estate, he is just as trapped as a woman whose only goal is to make a good match."

That's an excellent point Kerstin! I hadn't thought about it like that. It underlines just how much expectation and the pressure to play one's part in the world can have a negative effect on the weaker and the more gentler/romantic souls.

Comments upon comments-

Molly, herself, does not recognize her feelings for Roger go beyond close friend and mentor. She does recognize that she is envious of the attention Roger pays to Cynthia and for that she feels mean and selfish. She longs for long talks with Roger as they had at Hamley Hall. But she seems to have put him in a box, which is not that of romantic possibility.

Cynthia is unaware of Molly’s envy or her unrecognized feelings for Roger. She is not taken with him, finding him nice but a bit odd and uninteresting on the whole.
Nothing so far has caused me to doubt her true affection for Molly.

Mrs. Gibson as the totally self centered social climber would love for either Molly or Cynthia to make a match above their station. Think of the possibilities of power and position which she could and would take advantage of as the mother of the wife.

I agree with the observations that Mrs. Gibson’s marital hopes for her daughters and that of the Squire are different. Mrs. Gibson wants to advance her daughters’ (and by extension her own) social position. The Squire is just expressing the normal expectation as head of the family with the longest pedigree as land owner in the county. His heir shall marry someone who is socially appropriate.

To stand up a bit for Osborne, he does tell Roger that he is a new man and must make his name. He wants to sell his poetry in order to have money for him and Aimee to live on while he studied for the bar. (Chapter 23). The Squire has made it quite clear that he will not be financing anymore education for Osborne and even his allowance has lapsed. As heir and previous wunderkind to his parents, it is understandable that Osborne did not think much about money and any necessity for frugality, it just was never an issue. This ties into Osborne’s furnishing the house for Aimee in a grand manner. As Gabrielle said, it just reflected who he was and his position in the social hierarchy.

I think one of Gaskell’s themes is an examination of how different characters deal with the expectations/limitations of their position in the social hierarchy in this more feudal, isolated society. Osborne is obviously not cut out for his intended role. Neither is Lord Hollingford, who would prefer to study scientific subjects than be an MP. Harriet recognizes her obligations as a Cumnor in providing entertainment and excitement for the Hollingford people- dancing with “commoners” at the ball. However, she also uses her station to bend the rules- talking openly with Molly and then taking her advice on how to treat the Browning sisters. Roger, Lord Hollingford and Mr. Gibson are forward looking characters whose interest in science foreshadows the technological and scientific age just around the corner which will create new levels of middle class in the social hierarchy. Roger, with his interest in science and his ability to take care of the land, may be the link between old and new.

Preston obviously has something over both Cynthia and Mrs. Gibson. Cynthia is both infuriated but submissive to him at the ball. Mrs. Gibson is afraid of him and is perplexed by Cynthia’s behavior toward him, so that she seems ignorant of what has gone on between her daughter and Preston.

As much as I hate Mrs G, I did want to try and understand her and her motives better, to see why she behaves like she does. And in doing so, I do think I understand her personality a little now.

I don't really see Mrs G's marriage as a step into a higher class but having said that, it certainly took away the burden of her having to earn a living and thereby providing for herself and her daughter.

With a husband in the picture, the responsibilities set upon her were different. All she had to do was maintain the house and the family and its image and that is a lot easier to do than if one was a silk wearing schoolmistress of a shabby school.

But what is different about her is the fact that she was fortunate to have had the intimacy with the family from the Towers. This, in her eyes, is a huge advantage and in her mind, is the reason why she feels herself apart from the commoners: "If there is one thing I hate more than another, it is the trying to make out an intimacy with great people." (Chap 26)

It's all about who you knew in those days and how intimately one was connected to the rich that made one's value in society. For Mrs Gibson, her relationship with the people in the Towers (even though we see just how real it is when she is made to wait for nearly an hour alone in a room during her lunch appointment with the house), distinguished her from the rest in the neighbourhood just as it did for Mrs Browning in her conversation with her Ashcombe friend.

Yes Mrs G had that advantage in life as opposed to the rest of them and I think Gaskell telling us this, helps us elucidate her attitudes and her shocking and other stupid behaviours (eg., not passing on Lady Harriet's message of remembrance for Molly after their tea together in Chap 25).

She believes her intimacy with that family is unique and therefore the only one that matters in the Gibson household when it comes to that family; and this attitude extends to the neighbourhood and its people as well on the day of the ball. She loved the attention she got when everyone seemed to appeal to her opinion given her intimate knowledge of the family, to the reason for their delayed absence at the ball.

We also see her attitude in these lines as well: "...but Lady Harriet's speaking at all to Molly had become to Mrs. Gibson almost like shaking a red rag at a bull; it was the one thing sure to put her out of temper. But she would not have shown this to Lady Harriet for the world; only she contrived to baffle any endeavours at further conversation between the two, by placing herself betwixt Lady Harriet and Molly, ... "

and

"You would never have known her at all if it had not been for me ... (Chap 26)

Mrs G feels that Molly in no way needs or deserves this special attention from a member of a family she feels she alone is uniquely associated with and therefore, doesn't like how Molly is singled out by Lady Harriet. She seems to need that acknowledgement that she is special in her connections.

And she is not motherly to either Molly or Cynthia but in some ways, she does naturally feel that Cynthia deserves more given what she says here:

"You really bewilder me with your nonsense, child. Molly is worth twenty of you."

"I quite agree with you, mamma," said Cynthia, turning round to take Molly's hand.

"Yes; but she ought not to be," said Mrs. Gibson, still irritated. "Think of the advantages you've had." (Chap 24)

And there lies her point. She feels that her biological daughter deserves the attention, a better opinion among the people, a good match etc. because she toiled hard to give her that special advantage that comes from a good education (like Squire Hamley does) which in turn would make a better life for herself given the opportunities she was given. I feel like she thinks this way because she doesn't want her struggles and more importantly, her sacrifices, to be for nought.

To be sure, Mrs Gibson is neither a smart woman nor a kind, sympathetic person, wife or mother, who behaves as she does in the ignorance and arrogance of her opinions and attitudes. But I can't really fault her as much as I once did now that I understand her a bit better.

And I think we are getting a big clue as to the relationship with Mr Preston. He was intimately associated with Mrs Kirkpatrick and Cynthia during their time in Aschombe: ".. for all she's dressed in pearl-grey satin now! And she would have been glad enough to marry Mr. Preston in those days." (Chap 26)

Hmm....

Apologies for the really long posts...

Re Cynthia, I think Cynthia likes playing the game with these men.
She seems to have no trouble at all attracting them where ever she goes.

Honestly though, if Cynthia were astute enough, she would have realized just how special Roger means to Molly, given her reaction with the nosegays he sent over for the ball. But Cynthia is too blinded by the fact that she can make Molly look better with some of the flowers from it, taking no care that Molly probably has never received a nosegay before in her life. I think it shows how she values these obvious displays of male attention - ripping it apart to pieces, throwing it in the fire, carelessly attending to it at the ball.

And like a few posters have said now, I also think that Molly is not truly aware of her feelings for Roger.

And if she did made Cynthia aware of them, I think Cynthia would have backed off given that she is not really interested in Roger herself but rather in the attention he (and others like him) bestow upon her.

I think Mrs G reacts the way she does when Lady Harriet pairs Lord Hollingford with Molly is because in her opinion, the chances of Molly making a "good" match were minimal at best and given the advantages that she has so dutifully provided for her own daughter Cynthia, it was only natural for her to expect more from her than Molly.

Still, the praise and more importantly, her value among the common-folk (not so much her status) she would have received as Molly's mother if Lord Hollingford were to marry Molly is something in itself: "...for it does not require much reasoning power to discover, that if it is a very fine thing to be mother-in-law to a very magnificent three-tailed bashaw, it presupposes that the wife who makes the connection between the two parties is in harmony with her mother. (chap 26)

For this reason, I can't see her as a devious social climber really; simply, as someone who strives to be more respected than she is at present.

Lois wrote: "Apologies for the really long posts...

Re Cynthia, I think Cynthia likes playing the game with these men.
She seems to have no trouble at all attracting them where ever she goes.

Honestly thoug..."

Lois you make many good observations about Mrs. Gibson. I think you’re right in that her relationship with the Cumnors has been a primary cause for her feeling that she is better than the other commoners. However, she is continually reminded that in the Cumnors’ eyes, she is lower on the social totem pole- making her wait when the Duchess is visiting, forgetting she is married to Mr. Gibson...
It is her arrogance (as you refer to), her seeing everything through the lens of “me, me”, her embroidery or outright lying about the truth of events and her part in them to increase her importance which makes me dislike her. I agree she desperately wants more respect, but if she had tried to achieve that end through honorable means, I would have a different opinion of her.
You have described the motivations for her behavior, but although it helps us to understand her more, I just can’t bring myself to dislike her any less!

Linda wrote: "Lois wrote: "Apologies for the really long posts...

Re Cynthia, I think Cynthia likes playing the game with these men.
She seems to have no trouble at all attracting them where ever she goes.

H..."
I'm not team Mrs Gibson either - she made a marriage of convenience, hates being outshined by her daughter, only cares about appearances and shows no real caring for Molly. I know Mrs G was constrained by circumstance, but there is also such a thing as rising above and she does not.

Like someone else said, if Osbourne would tell his father about his marriage, at least the father would know why he ran up his debts. I guess he's afraid his father will kick him out and his wife would end up supporting him. I wish I had more faith in him as a writer but I don't see that going anywhere.

Cynthia’s and Molly’s different attitudes toward the posies illustrate their different attitudes towards people and their environment and their different temperaments.

Cynthia regards the posies as objects. To her they are raw materials available to be used to enhance the wearer. The donor of the post, his feelings and motives, the source of the flowers are unimportant. She is not selfish in this. Her efforts are for Molly and Cynthia is perfectly willing to trade her bouquet for Molly’s now depleted and bedraggled one.

Molly is concerned with the posies as the subject of the givers’ thoughts, feelings and efforts in relation to Cynthia and her. She associates the flowers with their source in the garden. They are symbolic to her.
This sentimentality has been evident before, as in her reaction to the redecoration of her bedroom and the removal of her mother’s furniture.

One might say that Cynthia represents Sense, the rational, and Molly represents Sensibility, the emotional.

Martin wrote: "Cynthia’s and Molly’s different attitudes toward the posies illustrate their different attitudes towards people and their environment and their different temperaments.

Cynthia regards the posies a..."

Great observation!
In this regard Cynthia is very much her mother's daughter, but while Mrs Gibson pretends to be sentimental and 'as sensitive as a weather barometer', Cynthia is more candid about herself and acknowledges how different she is from Molly.

Nina wrote: "Martin wrote: "Cynthia’s and Molly’s different attitudes toward the posies illustrate their different attitudes towards people and their environment and their different temperaments.

Cynthia regar..."

Agreed- excellent observation. There is one area though where the emotional comes to the fore with Cynthia- Mr. Preston. She is often described with rising color in her cheeks and flaming eyes when speaking of him or interacting with him. After the ball, her depressive state- sorrows and cares- are obviously caused by him, as is the doom she speaks of to Molly. This makes his hold on her, the customarily rational person, even more mysterious.

Nina wrote: "Martin wrote: "Cynthia’s and Molly’s different attitudes toward the posies illustrate their different attitudes towards people and their environment and their different temperaments.

Cynthia regar..."

True- but Cynthia I think is also a little more capable of feeling for others than her mother- not as much as or in the same way as someone like Molly, may be but still she does care.

Yes, I agree Lady Clementina; it is not that Cynthia is wholly unfeeling as a person. She genuinely did want to help Molly look even more prettier with the flowers adorned on her wrist and/or hair. And she does love and care about Molly and about Mr G's as well, perhaps more than her mother.

But as unselfish as she tries to be to herself, being the (constant) object of male affection especially from quarters she does not care to reciprocate, I think is what weighs her down and causes her to react rather flippantly to the thoughtful bouquets.

I think she understands exactly what the motives are with the flowers given that she is aware of their source and chooses to express her disregard for them by ripping it apart or chucking it into the fire because she just doesn't care enough to love Roger or Mr Preston.

This business with Preston sure is something bound to be something spectacular at this rate. For Downton Abbey fans, it is akin to the Lady Mary and Richard Carlisle relationship. Interestingly enough, both male characters, Carlisle and Preston, were played by the awesome Iain Glen. ;)

Martin wrote: "One might say that Cynthia represents Sense, the rational, and Molly represents Sensibility, the emotional. "

Nice nod to Jane Austen :)

Though I think there is something profoundly missing in Cynthia. She is nice and attentive in a superficial way, but she lacks true heart. Here and there her true self emerges when she is too overwhelmed to conceal it. In these moments she looks away, disengages, or escapes to her room. There is a shiftiness, not unlike her mother's. The only person with whom Cynthia is the most honest is Molly, for Molly is no threat to her, but even with her she only goes so far.
With Molly, on the other hand, what you see is what you get. She gives freely and of her heart, and in the end she has nothing to hide. The secret she promised to keep is not her secret to conceal, but she does it out of honor - a virtue missing with both Cynthia and Mrs. Gibson.

Lois wrote: "Yes, I agree Lady Clementina; it is not that Cynthia is wholly unfeeling as a person. She genuinely did want to help Molly look even more prettier with the flowers adorned on her wrist and/or hair...."

Yes- I forgot to mention Mr Gibson- but you're right- she does care for him (and his opinions) more than her mother does.

Mrs Gibson finally showed true consideration for her daughter by not wanting her to become a young widow. Too bad that was the only time.
When Roger comes back in 2 years, maybe Molly can get out of the friend zone.

Nina, Linda, Lady Clementina, Lois, Kerstin, I have nothing to add to your comments! :)

ConnieD wrote: "Mrs Gibson finally showed true consideration for her daughter by not wanting her to become a young widow. Too bad that was the only time.
When Roger comes back in 2 years, maybe Molly can get out..."
Connie, you may be right, or perhaps...
What if Mrs Gibson was really completely selfish? So when she worries that Cynthia may become a widow, it is not out of consideration for her daughter, but out of concern for herself. Indeed, if Cynthia becomes a widow, she won't be as rich as Mrs Gibson hopes and she may ask for money from her mother.
Oh, what an evil thought! Am I more devilish than Mrs Gibson? :D

By the way, do you know why the duchess didn't wear her long-awaited diamonds at the ball?

ConnieD wrote: "Mrs Gibson finally showed true consideration for her daughter by not wanting her to become a young widow. Too bad that was the only time.
When Roger comes back in 2 years, maybe Molly can get out of the friend zone."

Is this from the next section Connie? Don't recall reading this bit last week...which chapter is it from?

Lois wrote: "Is this from the next section Connie? Don't recall reading this bit last week...which chapter is it from? "

It is. Let's continue discussing these elements of the story in the folder for the 5th week.