Short & Sweet Treats discussion

Welcome to our discussion of Frankenstein by Mary Shelley, who was 18 when she wrote it.

✌ Why is the book called "Frankenstein" when it is mainly told from the creature's point of view?

✌Are there any similarities between Victor and the creature?

✌ Why didn't Victor give his creature a name?

✌ What do you think the book was saying about scientific advances?

Spoilers may be present.

Kindle has a free copy of the book by the way, for anyone who would like.

This is a re read for me. I first read it in high school. So far I am early on in the book We see Victor losing touch with humanity. He really becomes obssessed with creating life and isolates himself in pursuit of achieving scientific greatness.

I love the choice for August! In my case, I've read it four times, the first one for pleasure (after a recommendation from a professor) and three other times with advanced students, and I find that every reading brings something new to my attention!

I'm looking forward to discussing this groundbreaking book with everyone! :-)

Eugenia, great to meet someone else who has taught the book! It's been powerful to revisit it without having to make "lesson plans"--and I've come to admire the flowing prose of Mary Shelley.

This is an excerpt from the introduction to Frankenstein by Harold Bloom. I find his compassion for the "creature" (I refuse to call him a "monster") to be admirable:

http://legacy.owensboro.kctcs.edu/cru...

Harold Bloom is Sterling Professor of the Humanities at Yale University and Henry W and Albert A. Berg Professor of English at the New York University Graduate School. He is the author of twenty books and the editor of more than thirty anthologies of literature and literary criticism.

Frankenstein; or, The Modem Prometheus is the full title of Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin Shelley's inaugural science fiction novel, which she began before she was nineteen and finished less than a year later....The novel intends us to see its protagonist, Dr. Victor Frankenstein, as the modern Prometheus, stealing creative fire from heaven in order to make a creature, a New Adam, whom most of us now call "the monster," because we have seen so many motion picture versions of Frankenstein. Despite his crimes, the creature is as much angel as monster, and we do best by following the book in calling him "the daemon." ...

The center of Frankenstein is the bitter relationship between Victor Frankenstein and his daemon, best expressed by the daemon when he cries out to the scientist: "Remember that I am thy creature; I ought to be thy Adam, but I am rather the fallen angel, whom thou drivest from joy for no misdeed." This alludes to the novel's epigraph, Adam's lament to God in John Milton's epic, Paradise Lost.

Did I request thee, Maker, from my clay
To mould me man? Did I solicit thee
From darkness to promote me?

One way to measure the vast distance between Mary Shelley's daemon and the movies' monster is to try to imagine anyone of the film monsters educating himself by reading Milton's Paradise Lost. Mary Shelley's formidable daemon does exactly that, and receives a superb education in consequence. Unlike Victor Frankenstein, who is a literalist lacking in imagination, the daemon has the sensibility of an authentic poet. Critics tend to agree that Frankenstein and the daemon are the two halves of the same being, divided against itself. This gives an ironic sanction to the universal popular "error," by which the name of Frankenstein has come to mean the poor monster rather than its irresponsible creator....

The daemon is superior to his maker both in spirit and in feeling, and so we come both to love him and to fear him. We do not have any particular affect towards the scientist who has both botched his work (the daemon is hideous in appearance) and failed to take responsibility for his creature...."

LaLaLa Laura wrote: "Welcome to our discussion of Frankenstein by Mary Shelley, who was 18 when she wrote it.

✌ Why is the book called "Frankenstein" when it is mainly told from the mon..."

Thanks, Laura--I trust everyone knows the basic plot of the book, so we don't have to worry about "spoilers" :-)

haha that is true, Julia.

LOL. it did go by quickly didn't it? We are less than halfway to the holidays.

victor is so frightened upon first seeing his creature come to life. The poor creature, how rejected he must have felt! He comes to the world physically a giant but with the mentality of a child or possibly an infant.

He certainly enters the world that way, Laura--but he becomes self-taught, and I have always been touched by his ability to read and grasp Paradise Lost. The true hero of Milton's epic poem is Satan--and the parallels between that tragic hero and the daemon are part of Mary Shelley's brilliance.

Julia wrote: "Eugenia, great to meet someone else who has taught the book! It's been powerful to revisit it without having to make "lesson plans"--and I've come to admire the flowing prose of [author:Mary Shelle..."
Did I request thee, Maker, from my clay
To mould me man? Did I solicit thee
From darkness to promote me?


This reminds me of a parent/child relationship. Victor, the parent, did not provide a nurturing environment to his child, the creature (formerly known as monster).

Julia wrote: "He certainly enters the world that way, Laura--but he becomes self-taught, and I have always been touched by his ability to read and grasp Paradise Lost. The true hero of Milton's epic..."

It seemed once the creature learned language, he became more tame. Is Shelley saying that language is what unites people and humanizes us?

I don't think he becomes more tame, but rather more AWARE--which will lead to his rages. Awareness is always a double-edged sword, as we learn from every revolution in history. When anyone--creature or human--becomes aware of their enslavement, they have a raging desire to be free from their chains.

It's SO important to forget the old film versions of this story, which made the daemon a lumbering, inarticulate child. I did just watch I, FRANKENSTEIN with Aaron Eckhart, which does capture the anger AND humanity of the creature, who in this version is immortal.



A far cry from:


Yet both share that lonely sense of having been rejected by their creator.

Right you are, Julia!
In some cases I've had to begin by getting students to forget the image of Boris Karloff, the bolts on his neck, his robot-like manner of walking and his limited speech.
As it happened to me when I first read it, students were surpirsed to see that the story is in fact quite different and we en up feeling sorry for this creature. (Yes, "mosnter" is too harsh a word!)


We've also reflected a lot on one of Laura's questions, " Why didn't Victor give his monster a name?" Our name is our identity, it is a very powerful word for each one of us. Hasn't it ever happened to you that you are in the middle of a group of people all speaking at the same time, and suddenly you hear your name? You instantly detect this word in the middle of everyone's conversations.
I think Victor deems his creation as less than human, and refuses to five him a name to reinforce this idea. Besides, the epithets he uses are "wretch" "monster" "daemon," among other very negative terms.

Eugenia wrote: "Right you are, Julia!
In some cases I've had to begin by getting students to forget the image of Boris Karloff, the bolts on his neck, his robot-like manner of walking and his limited speech.
As i..."

I think you hit it on the head, Eugenia. Giving the creature a name would humanize him.

The creature has been portrayed in cinematic history as this really scary monster. That image is so iconic and so engrained in our culture, that many do not know this creature was three dimensional and those who know better, sometimes forget.

A little off topic, but has anyone seen the TV series Penny Dreadful? It's a little grisly for me sometimes (have to avert my eyes occasionally), but it very much captures the manner of Frankenstein's "monster." It features several classic horror and literary icons including Frankenstein, his creature, Dorian Gray, and Dracula. It's an incredibly literate show, but no surprise there since it's directed by the famous playwright John Logan, the author of the play Red about the artist Mark Rothko (which won a Tony award) and the author of the screenplay adaption of Sweeney Todd (which won a Golden Globe).

I like what you say Julia about the "monster" becoming aware. So true!

I also adore Paradise Lost! Despite having read a great deal of poetry, I still find Milton a very challenging read, but he's worth it. One of the most fascinating book length poems I've come across.

oh this looks good, Greg! very Gothic and I like the mix of literary characters.

LaLaLa Laura wrote: "oh this looks good, Greg! very Gothic and I like the mix of literary characters."

It's a dark show but very literate and incredibly well acted! Plus it's set in the period of those novels; so it has references to Romantic era poetry and literature as well as Paradise Lost. I've been fairly addicted to it :)

Greg wrote: "LaLaLa Laura wrote: "oh this looks good, Greg! very Gothic and I like the mix of literary characters."

It's a dark show but very literate and incredibly well acted! Plus it's set in the period of..."

I just checked the information on it, Greg, and I'll be excited to see Rory Kinnear as Caliban, an unexpectedly eloquent Frankenstein's monster. Brilliant to name the creature "Caliban", who is one of my favorite Shakespeare characters--also rejected by his "master", Prospero.

I've often thought of the similarities of Caliban, Grendel, and Satan in Paradise Lost--and the creature fits into their group well.

Thanks, Greg--I don't have cable, but will see the series when it is available through our library (next year probably).

Kinnear is a wonderful actor; in addition to being in film, he won the Olivier Award for Best Actor in 2014 for his portrayal of Shakespeare's villain Iago in the National Theatre production of Othello.



Here he is as Caliban, Frankenstein's creature:

Having never read any of these books previously I am excited and looking forward to experience them for the first time.

Martin wrote: "Having never read any of these books previously I am excited and looking forward to experience them for the first time."

That's great Martin!

I always found it ironic that it was the creator who was named "Frankenstein" vice the monster, since as children we're geared to think that Frankenstein is the "green monster." I read this story about a year ago and one of the book's introductions referred to this story as a "Modern Prometheus." Anyone care to comment on that?

I posted Harold Bloom's article in post #5, Holly, which explains the Prometheus tie-in. What's a shame is that so often the full title ISN'T given!

I've just spent an hour reading poorly written college essays about the connection between the Promethean myth and Frankenstein. Actually, Wikipedia's entry is the most cogent imho:

"The Modern Prometheus is the novel's subtitle (though some modern editions now drop the subtitle, mentioning it only in an introduction). Prometheus, in later versions of Greek mythology, was the Titan who created mankind at the behest of Zeus. He made a being in the image of the gods that could have a spirit breathed into it. Prometheus taught man to hunt, read, and heal their sick, but after he tricked Zeus into accepting poor-quality offerings from humans, Zeus kept fire from mankind. Prometheus being the creator, took back the fire from Zeus to give to man. When Zeus discovered this, he sentenced Prometheus to be eternally punished by fixing him to a rock of Caucasus, where each day an eagle would peck out his liver, only for the liver to regrow the next day because of his immortality as a god. He was intended to suffer alone for eternity, but eventually Heracles (Hercules) released him.

Prometheus was also a myth told in Latin but was a very different story. In this version Prometheus makes man from clay and water, again a very relevant theme to Frankenstein, as Victor rebels against the laws of nature (how life is naturally made) and as a result is punished by his creation. “Prometheus became a figure who represented human striving, particularly the quest for scientific knowledge, and the risk of overreaching or unintended consequences. In particular, he was regarded in the Romantic era as embodying the lone genius whose efforts to improve human existence could also result in tragedy: Mary Shelley, for instance, gave The Modern Prometheus as the subtitle to her novel Frankenstein.” Mary Shelley seemingly titled the book after the conflicted principles of knowledge in the story symbolising Victor as the Modern Prometheus."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankens...

Julia wrote: "I posted Harold Bloom's article in post #5, Holly, which explains the Prometheus tie-in. What's a shame is that so often the full title ISN'T given!

I've just spent an hour reading poorly written ..."

Oh no! Reading college essays still! Forever a teacher :)

Here's another link to the Prometheus myth, though Julia pretty much covered the bases. :) I love mythology, so fascinating!

http://mythologian.net/prometheus-the...

LaLaLa Laura wrote: "Julia wrote: "I posted Harold Bloom's article in post #5, Holly, which explains the Prometheus tie-in. What's a shame is that so often the full title ISN'T given!

I've just spent an hour reading p..."

LOL, yep--and pretty appalling to see all the ways students can cheat by downloading essays! Sigh--I'm SO old!!

Julia wrote: "LaLaLa Laura wrote: "Julia wrote: "I posted Harold Bloom's article in post #5, Holly, which explains the Prometheus tie-in. What's a shame is that so often the full title ISN'T given!

I've just s..."

you are not old! I think it is disgusting that people would cheat like that!

Julia wrote: "LaLaLa Laura wrote: "Julia wrote: "I posted Harold Bloom's article in post #5, Holly, which explains the Prometheus tie-in. What's a shame is that so often the full title ISN'T given!

I've just s..."

I love that picture! that was me Googling too in high school and college!

Greg wrote: "

Here's another link to the Prometheus myth, though Julia pretty much covered the bases. :) I love mythology, so fascinating!

http://mythologian.net/prometheus-the......"

I love mythology as well, Greg--not sure if you've heard of Coursera, which offers lots of free online college courses--and one of the best is Greek and Roman Mythology from the University of Pennsylvania, taught by Peter Struck. I've also taken several classes on Climate Change--such a liberating feeling to do as much or as little as I wish, in conjunction with students from all over the world!!
https://www.coursera.org/courses?orde...

Julia wrote: "Greg wrote: "

Here's another link to the Prometheus myth, though Julia pretty much covered the bases. :) I love mythology, so fascinating!

http://mythologian.net/prometheus-the......"

Thanks for the link Julia - sounds interesting. I think I would like that. I've never taken online courses, just the traditional ones back when I got my degrees. Could be fun!

Here is a good 5 minute BBC video: "Frankenstein: How a modern horror classic was written". Stephen Hebron, curator of the exhibition Shelley's Ghost, tells the fascinating story of how Mary Shelley came to write the story at the age of 18! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainme...

The person interviewing Hebron is Will Gompertz, who mentions the Danny Boyle production of Frankenstein, which has engendered so much interest. The production was a sell-out hit at the National Theatre in 2011, and the broadcast has since become an international sensation, experienced by almost half a million people in cinemas around the world. Benedict Cumberbatch and Johnny Lee Miller alternated the roles of Victor Frankenstein and the creature in this powerful show. The trailer is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqyQK...



There is an online petition to have the film version released on DVD, but no word so far.

A friend of mine at work went to see that in theaters, but I didn't get around to it in time

Greg, and everyone,

I'm doing the Coursera course on Greek and Roman Mythology and it is excellent! I recommend it to anyone who wants to learn more about some well-known myths. The professor is very clear and he relates the stories with theories such as Functionalism or Structuralism, or Freud's work.
Among other things, we've read The Odyssey , some Homeric Hymns, The Oresteia and The Aenid

I loved the course, Eugenia--Peter Struck is excellent as the professor, and far more involved with students than those teaching some of the other Coursera classes. And you actually can sign up right now to do the last few weeks of the course with Greek drama, Oedipus Rex by Sophocles and The Bacchae by Euripides.

One caution: the discussion boards can turn into a waste of time, so choose carefully those threads and participants with which you wish to engage. As in all online courses, the warning is "don't feed the trolls", since people will sign up just to cause trouble.

That being said, the video lectures for the courses are worth the time, even if I no longer do the writing assignments. The Coursera system of peer review is simply appalling, since they have no way to deal with plagiarism--plus the peer comments caused much of the angst in the discussion boards.

I'm enjoying breaking out of my "follow the rules" mode and now take the classes just to LEARN :-)

Sounds great Julia and Eugenia - I think I'll wait until next time around though so I can start at the beginning. Thanks for the tips!

if anyone noticed, I changed the word "monster" in the first post to "creature" This has been such a great discussion!

Thanks, Laura--that's a wonderful change, and you're the best for being considerate of our discussions :-)

I haven't read this book since my school days maybe it's time for a reread. To me it's a classic

welcome to the discussion, Chris!


so why did Victor create this creature? I say ego. I think he sought to become God like

Hmm, certainly Victor Frankenstein's ego was involved in his creation--but so was his curiosity. After all, the "creation" of the atom and hydrogen bombs exhibited human ego--but also stemmed from the curiosity that has accomplished so much.

At least Victor (like J. Robert Oppenheimer) was horrified at what he had created. However, neither of them could turn back the clock and UN-invent their creations. For me, Victor's abandonment of the creature was where his ego stepped in--his "child" had not turned out as he wished, so was abandoned. Oppenheimer, on the other hand, was one of the bravest people I know--even losing his job in opposing Edward Teller, whose ego DID lead to the hydrogen bomb.

IMHO, human ego is always involved in any act of creativity, whether great art, music, literature, etc. However, when the creation takes second place to the ego, we get the Frankensteins of the world, in all their forms.

Julia wrote: "Hmm, certainly Victor Frankenstein's ego was involved in his creation--but so was his curiosity. After all, the "creation" of the atom and hydrogen bombs exhibited human ego--but also stemmed from ..."


I felt Victor had this God-like approach though. In chapter 4 he says "A new species would bless me as its creator and source; many happy and excellent natures would owe their being to me."

It's been a long time since I read this, but I got the desire to be God-like feeling too.

But then Victor got cold feet and all the trouble started. It would have been a MUCH different story if he'd never rejected his creation in the first place.

LaLaLa Laura wrote: "Julia wrote: "Hmm, certainly Victor Frankenstein's ego was involved in his creation--but so was his curiosity. After all, the "creation" of the atom and hydrogen bombs exhibited human ego--but also..."

Certainly in Chapter 4 he sees himself in that "God-like" image--but it's shattered quickly. I do think there's a warning in here about ANYONE on that kind of ego-trip, as I said in the last post. Atom bomb or creature--both are results of human curiosity and creativity gone wrong, imho.

It's my first time reading Frankenstein and having a group read enhanced my experienced. I never read the book in school, so it was hard for me to get into it at first, mainly due to the archaic setting. The book did grow on me after a while.

I also have to check out Coursera as well. So many things to do/read...

2 decades later I, finally, am rereading this book. I have been enjoying myself. I didn't get that much into the story in high school....It's more philosophical than I was ready for at that age. I am also glad I can participate in the group reads and discussions again. :)

I have found the book to be enjoyable. It's made me wonder if the greater powers that be (whatever God you may believe in, insert here) look at their creation as Victor does sometimes. When humanity struggles or whatever the problem is, if they look upon us as Victor does the wretch. Victor is more disgusted with his creation I realize and I don't think that how we are viewed.

I do feel like at times humanity can view itself as wretched or disgusting. We can get wrapped up in trying to achieve a certain level of perfection, which makes us see ourselves negatively. Throw in that we were created in some way... It can make this sentiment overwhelming. I have found myself sympathizing with the creation. I wanted him to find solace, love, comfort and humanity with the cottagers. I was so sad when it failed.

I've been reading this out loud to my little one. It's so fun to share it with him even if he doesn't know/understand what's being said yet. He usually dozes off to sleep...So he at least finds it comforting. :)

I listened to this one on Audio. The narrator became quite whiny when speaking as the monster. I think I would have enjoyed this more as a physical book.

That's too bad Ashley - a bad reader can unfortunately sometimes spoil a good book. I listened to a horrible narrator of an audiobook version of Great Expectations a while ago. The book is so wonderful that he couldn't quite spoil it, but at some of my favorite soaring parts, I felt like grinding my teeth at the dry monotone.

Greg wrote: "That's too bad Ashley - a bad reader can unfortunately sometimes spoil a good book. I listened to a horrible narrator of an audiobook version of Great Expectations a while ago. The book is so wonde..."

Oh I agree Greg! I just started listening to Audio books in the last couple months and learned quite quickly to sample listen before I purchase.
Luckily, I borrowed this one from my library app:)

I listened to Gulliver's Travels as well. I was concentrating so hard on what the narrator was saying because he accent was so thick that it wasn't really enjoyable.

I feel nothing but sympathy towards the Creature when he is first introduced, and I think that thing would indeed have been different if Victor had not abandoned him in that cowardly way. We can't ignore that later in the book his actions were also quite reprehensible, but then again, his nature is not evil at first. It is the rejection of his Master/Creator and of society as a whole that leads to this behaviour.

How do you feel towards the Creature?