The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of March 12th - March 18th, we are reading chapters 4 and 5 of Caesar: Life of a Colossus by Adrian Goldsworthy.

The third week's reading assignment is:

WEEK THREE - March 12th - March 18th -> 4. The Young Caesar and 5. Candidate (61-108)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off February 26th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Vicki

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Adrian Goldsworthy

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also, the citation thread: (for Unreasonable Men - look at examples)

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - Spoiler Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Link:

by Adrian Goldsworthy

Everyone, for the week of March 12th - March 18th, we are reading Chapters 4 and 5.

The third week's reading assignment is:

WEEK THREE - March 12th - March 18th -> 4. The Young Caesar and 5. Candidate (61-108)

Chapter Overview and Summary:

Chapter 4. The Young Caesar


A Roman court of justice

This chapter details Caesar’s life up to the age of 30, when he could start running for office.

Chapter 5. Candidate


Voting in Rome

This chapter covers Caesar’s early elected offices, and the rise of Pompey.

Roman pirates

Discussion Topics for Chapter IV:

1. Caesar had a very colorful life before he was even eligible to be in the Senate. Hiding from Sulla, defying Sulla, being pardoned by Sulla; winning the corona civica at 19 in Mytilene; the “affair” with King Nicomedes; being held for ransom by pirates, then capturing and executing said pirates. Is it possible that any of these stories were created later on to make him seem even more special?

2. What do you think of the Roman system for prosecutions, where the lawyers for each side were private citizens and the defense lawyer was generally held in greater esteem than the prosecution?

Discussion Topics for Chapter V:

1. Pompey’s early career seems even more amazing than Caesar’s, since he successfully defeated some enemies in battle. And standing for consul before the required age and without having been elected to any lower office was technically against the law. Did his ignoring so many of the political norms advance the weakening of the Republic?

2. Caesar put on spectacular shows after he was elected aedile, with 320 pairs of gladiators and beast shows. Was it really necessary to put on such shows? Would you be at a disadvantage when you ran for praetor if you didn’t go into enormous debt?

Since Pompey was 6 years older than Caesar, the latter must have heard about the former's exploits at a young age. When Caesar was 17, Pompey at 23 was fighting for Sulla with an army he put together himself from his father’s veterans and clients. I can't help but wonder what Caesar thought of that, and if he wanted to emulate Pompey.

Vicki wrote: "IV.1. Is it possible that any of these stories were created later on to make him seem even more special?."

I don't think these stories are completely fabricated. Caesar was already too well known of a figure to invent complete episodes of his life.

On the other hand, it is highly likely that the stories were richly embellished. Either by his supporters (the pirate story) or by his enemies (the 'affair'). These stories became good propaganda for contemporary writers. Later historians see the past through the lens of Caesar's immense impact and then typically add another layer of exaggeration to somehow make it seem like his rise was inevitable or to contrast with the mediocrity of their contemporary rulers.

Chap IV - 1- Caesar had a colorful life! Some of those stories seem to be rooted in reality and other seen to be "stuck" to him after his death.

I have to return the library book, can't renew it as it is on hold. The Library system doesn't own the ebook, so I bought the Kindle book and will be reading that from now on. SIGH.

I was being a bit facetious when I posed the question about Caesar's amazing collection of early accomplishments. I personally believe they all happened, except for him being Nicomedes' lover. I just don't see him doing something to damage his future dignitas, but I can see how the circumstances could give rise to his enemies putting forth the story.

Also, sorry, Michele, about not being able to renew the book. I am personally such a cheapskate that I hate buying books, and I love my library system in Berkeley, where we can borrow books from other systems, even as far away as the Univ. of Nevada at Las Vegas (where I have gotten books).

Michele wrote: "Chap IV - 1- Caesar had a colorful life! Some of those stories seem to be rooted in reality and other seen to be "stuck" to him after his death.

I have to return the library book, can't renew it..."

Michele sometimes you can return the book and then request it again and start the cycle over again. Sometimes there might be somebody who is waiting for the book but many times that is not the case whatsoever. It just has to be returned first to do that. I actually have had that happen too.

I wish that could have happened, Bentley, but I checked the hold list and every copy was checked out or on hold. Its suddenly a popular book. I just bought the kindle version.

Vicki wrote: "1. Pompey’s early career seems even more amazing than Caesar’s, since he successfully defeated some enemies in battle. And standing for consul before the required age and without having been elected to any lower office was technically against the law. Did his ignoring so many of the political norms advance the weakening of the Republic?."

The obvious answer is yes, since he broke the rules and weakened the republican institutions.

On the other hand, what would the Republic have done without a Pompey? Would they have ended the resistance against Sulla so quickly and avoided a fraction of the empire? Would the pirates have been defeated without him?

The author writes: "A degree of flexibility had always been important within the Republican system, especially at times of military crisis." I think this captures the essence but it remains a careful balancing act. Too much respect for the rules and customs, and you end up invaded or torn apart by regional strongmen. Too little respect, and you slide into anarchy and dictatorship.

Michele wrote: "I wish that could have happened, Bentley, but I checked the hold list and every copy was checked out or on hold. Its suddenly a popular book. I just bought the kindle version."

That is so strange - I wonder what made it so popular all of a sudden. Maybe more folks are reading along than we think (smile).

Chap 5 -
Did his ignoring so many of the political norms advance the weakening of the Republic?

I would have to say Yes. Once you break your own rules, then everything is up for grabs.

Suddenly so happy I could renew the book at my library this morning ;-)

I also believe the stories are true, but I guess they were 'enriched' afterwords. Kind of a 'based on a true story'.

And yes, ignoring or bending rules makes it easier to bend or ignore another one and another and another...

What struck me in this week's chapters is the enormous spending Caesar did as an aedile. I knew about the 'bread and games', but that it was this extreme I did not know.

Caesar's gladiator shows seem really over the top. 320 pairs - I wouldn't have thought there were that many gladiators in all of Italy, but there must have been.

Good morning!

I also was surprised at Caesar's profligate spending, particularly since the author states that he had to borrow the money. His family wasn't wealthy and Caesar himself wasn't yet important in political circles.

Jim

It's amazing that people were willing to loan Caesar and others so much money. They must have assumed that he'd get money to pay them back when he went to govern a province.

I suspect that Caesar was the consummate salesman.

It seems he was aiming high with all his spending and I guess it meant that failure in career was not an option as he would have had to gone into excile if not able to pay his debts.

Also interesting to see how is relation with Crassus will develop since he is literally indebted so much to him.

I was quite surprised he married a relative of Sulla when his first wife was daughter of Cinna. As the writer points out it really appears that there were no clear factions in Roman life and relationships were very entangled and complicated

In his taking on of debt, he had a lot in common with modern visionary entrepreneurs. And Crassus was the wily venture capitalist.

Goldsworthy starts chapter 4 mentioning the different busts of the mature Caesar. I really like the one next to Pompey, very handsome. I think he looks a lot like the actor Patrick Stewart. I would love to have seen Stewart in a performance of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar.



How do they manage photos in ebooks?

It's interesting that Goldsworthy starts off chapter 5 talking about affairs in the upper class. Caesar was notorious for seducing other men's wives. It's too bad we don't have any original material written by women.

So far all of this, the rule breaking, the weakness in the
Senate, the wild stories about Caesar, the shifting alliances, and the various seductions just remind me of the old adage, The more things change; the more they stay the same. Reading History always reminds me that human nature rarely changes, only the costumes and the architecture.

A couple of days ago, the most popular politician in my country praised the Romans for how they dealt with foreigners and citizenship. He praised especially how Romans did not grant citizenship too easily and implied that European countries do. I certainly admire some aspects of Roman culture - within in the context of their era - but this statement sent shivers down my spine.

Let's look at the examples we have seen so far in the book:
- Spartacus and his fellow slaves only wanted freedom (not even citizenship), the rebellion was ruthlessly put down and thousands were killed in a very cruel way
- The Latins and Italians, who shared language and culture with the Romans and had been part of the empire for more than a century, wanted citizenship. They had to fight a bloody war (the social war) to obtain it. The only reason they got the concessions was that they fought so well.
- People living in areas conquered generations ago could not bring corrupt governors to justice directly. Even when the case was taken up by the local elite. They had to appeal to Roman citizens to take up their case. The only reason people like Julias Caesar took up these hopeless cases was to be granted an opportunity to speak in public and make a name for themselves. Non-citizens had almost no chance of winning.

Tell me, is that a model for the present?

I remember reading in another book, that when an engineer presented the Roman emperor a new method of erecting columns which was faster and required less labor, he declined to use it. The reasoning being that employed people are happy people who won't rebel or become criminals.

I believe Caesar and other aspiring politicians would think it was worth it to go into debt in order to put on shows like that. It seems like winning popularity with the people and other families was the key to power. Caesar knew what he was doing though it does seem excessive.

I thought the judicial system mentioned in chapter 4 was interesting as well. It seems a little unfair that the defense would have more of an advantage due to the fact that it was the favored position and the more experienced orator would take that place. Even the court room was a place for young men to gain influence and fame in order to pursue public life. It seems like that is the main purpose rather than prosecuting someone. I can see how skills in the court room would be beneficial for a future ruler. Young Caesar would have learned to create speeches, win over an audience and learn about the law.

I remember reading somewhere that lawyers weren't allowed to charge a fee, but they could, and did, accept "gifts," sometimes quite lavish ones.

1. Caesar had a very colorful life before he was even eligible to be in the Senate. Hiding from Sulla, defying Sulla, being pardoned by Sulla; winning the corona civica at 19 in Mytilene; the “affair” with King Nicomedes; being held for ransom by pirates, then capturing and executing said pirates. Is it possible that any of these stories were created later on to make him seem even more special?

- When it comes to historical figures and their lives, the stories that they are remembered by may be fact in basis but also wound up in fiction. Meaning that there is probably a little truth in many, but they may have been embellished over the years. The story of the supposed affair with King Nicomedes seemed just to be slander and gossip, but it's such a fabulous slight against Caesar and the embodiment of his alpha-male nature, that people can accept it as either fact or fiction and not really care what the reality actually was.

2. What do you think of the Roman system for prosecutions, where the lawyers for each side were private citizens and the defense lawyer was generally held in greater esteem than the prosecution?

- It seems a little backwards, but when it came to defense in a society as heavily law bound as the Roman Empire, I would be happy to know that my defense lawyer was at the top of the social ladder. (That was more of an opinion than an actual answer)

Discussion Topics for Chapter V:

1. Pompey’s early career seems even more amazing than Caesar’s, since he successfully defeated some enemies in battle. And standing for consul before the required age and without having been elected to any lower office was technically against the law. Did his ignoring so many of the political norms advance the weakening of the Republic?

- It may have been the ordinary political norms that was weakening Rome in the first place. Pomepy was brilliant (albeit arrogant) and he had both brains and brawn and wasn't afraid to challenge the powerful. By ignoring political norms, he may have been setting a new standard for a more modern political society.

2. Caesar put on spectacular shows after he was elected aedile, with 320 pairs of gladiators and beast shows. Was it really necessary to put on such shows? Would you be at a disadvantage when you ran for praetor if you didn’t go into enormous debt?

- When a president in elected into office, there are numerous parties and upwards to thirteen White House balls. When a monarch is crowned there are great royal celebrations in the proceeding weeks as well as the day of. So for Caesar to throw a grand show for his election was nothing new. Also, Caesar was known to be good with money. He was practical and would never let anyone starve on his account.

It is interesting to see both the enterprise and the courage and work of these high Romans. So Caesar faced danger relatively often - as did Pompey and many of the others in our cast or characters. So I think the initial foundations of the book, explaining how the male youths would go thru the day with their parents to get into the system so to say prepared them for such activity as adults. They did not, it seems, have to decide "what to do in life" - it seems to have been much dictated by position and sex at birth.

In the States we have not had a soldier president since Ike and he did not actually get into the fighting - we have to go back to Kennedy for that but I do think that Nixon had some Naval experience and Jimmy Carter too - but I think without so much personal danger.

I will make some other comments too

Allison wrote: "I believe Caesar and other aspiring politicians would think it was worth it to go into debt in order to put on shows like that. It seems like winning popularity with the people and other families w..."


So I think that the stronger posture given to the defense is probably logical without a penal system when guilt meant exile or death as I read the chapter. So guilt means death to one's Roman life - so logically all would want a system giving as much reasonable latitude as possible to avoiding being found guilty.

Vicki wrote: "Goldsworthy starts chapter 4 mentioning the different busts of the mature Caesar. I really like the one next to Pompey, very handsome. I think he looks a lot like the actor Patrick Stewart. I would..."

Question - I am reading on Kindle - do you have photos in a Kindle?

Thanks

Jim wrote: "Good morning!

I also was surprised at Caesar's profligate spending, particularly since the author states that he had to borrow the money. His family wasn't wealthy and Caesar himself wasn't yet im..."

I too wondered about this and the disclosure that he borrowed so made me wonder how he could ever, as a governor or whatever, gotten enough to pay it back (plunder at war?)
and then I am curious what would happen if Caesar, or another, died fighting for Rome. - did his family lose everything? - or if he became disabled fighting for Rome?
does anyone have knowledge or an idea?

Thanks for your comments, Vincent. Your question about what would happen to someone who died heavily in debt is interesting. I suppose his property would be sold, but I don't know what would happen to his family.