Reading the Chunksters discussion

Book Two -



In this Book we are introduced to the mysterious traveller who is repeatedly kicked out of inns where he is seeking food and rest after a 12 league journey (approx 36 miles). Finally he ends up at the home of the Bishop, where he has been informed he will find an open door. Much to the shock and dismay of Mademoiselle Baptistine and Madame Magloire, the Bishop welcomes him with open arms even after he confesses he has just been released from prison after serving a 19 year sentence. The Bishop's kind reaction leaves our stranger, Jean Valjean, speechless. The Bishop then shows JV a bed where he can sleep adjoining his own. JV cannot sleep and decides to escape in the middle of the night after stealing the silver service that they had dined with that evening. No sooner did Madame M discover the silverware missing the next morning than JV was brought back by the police. The Bishop, rather than incriminate JV, acts as if the silverware was a gift and gives JV the silver candlesticks that he 'forgot' to take with him. As JV leaves, the Bishop asks him to use the money he receives to become an honest man. JV leaves in a daze, and encountering a small boy on his journey playing with coins, steps on one of them and refuses to give it back. The boy is hysterical and eventually leaves. At this point, JV experiences a shock and internal transformation when he realizes what a wretch he has become, and tries to find the boy to return the coin, but to no avail.

Jean Valjean:

Book Three -




In this book we have a rapid change of scene and are in the year 1817 amongst a group of four young men and their girlfriends. The girls range in age from teenagers to 23. Unbeknownst to the girls, the young gentleman, who seem like merry, carefree cads from the get-go, are planning a 'prank' on their young ladies. While the four couples have been thick as thieves, the young men leave a note at a tavern for the ladies that they are not to open for one hour. When they do, they learn that the boys have all gone home and intend to never see them again. While three of the ladies seem to be of capricious affections and questionable morality, young Fantine, who had been in love with her beau, is devastated at the departure of her love, Tholomyès. Fantine is described as beautiful but poor, virtuous and moral. This was her first love, a true love, and we learn at the end of Book Three that she had a child.

Fantine:

In Book Two we see that Jean Valjean is acting almost without agency, that he has become animalistic as a result of his long prison sentence and cannot think as he might have before he was imprisoned. Recall that his prison sentence was because he stole a single loaf of bread to feed his sister's starving children. It is noted in this section that

"...society as a whole had done him nothing but injury. He has seen nothing of it but the sour face which it calls justice and shows only to those it castigates. Men had touched him only to hurt him; his only contact with them had been though blows. From the time of his childhood, and except for his mother and sister, he had never encountered a friendly word or kindly look."

This discussion is still so relevant today - in the endless nature vs. nurture debate and in the consideration of the appropriateness of criminal sentences. Is JV blameworthy in light of his circumstances for his original crime? For stealing the boy's coin? Has JV become 'dehumanized' by society?

was the original sentence for JV fair? and if so is that looking at that through modern eyes or based on the given time and place? Note that in Book Two, chapter 7 JV notes that he probably would not have been refused a loaf of bread if he had asked for it. In that case, why did he steal?

Do you think it was intentional that JV's repeated rejections from the inns mirrored the story of Mary and Joseph?

Jean Valjean is reborn! The good work of the bishop bears fruit.

Some half thought thoughts.

Valjean is a dangerous and spiteful man. Those moments in the bishop's bedroom show how dangerous he can be, and his treatment of petit-Grevais shows his spite. He's striking out at anyone. The narrator has to work overtime explaining and saving Valjean. Don't recall this Jean Valjean in the musical, the musical movie, or any of the tv or movie renditions I've seen.

Hugo's telling his readers that society's treatment of someone determines the type of person that someone will become, a kind of society-fulfilled prophecy rather than a self-fulfilled one. But Valjean is teetering over the edge of the abyss in that bedroom.

In book 1 the bishop tells his sister and the housekeeper(?) how much he loves the silver, but now we see he doesn't love it as much as he loves the meek and downtrodden. Interesting how important the bishop is to the set-up of this novel, something we don't see in some of the movies or some of the abridged versions.

Dianne wrote: "Do you think it was intentional that JV's repeated rejections from the inns mirrored the story of Mary and Joseph?"

Ha! I hadn't made that connection - good catch!

Hugo's questions:

Can human nature be so entirely transformed inside and out? Can man, created good by God, be made wicked by man? Can the heart become distorted, contract deformities and incurable infirmities, under the pressure of disproportionate grief, like the spinal column under a low ceiling?"

What do you think of the character of Fantine? She is drawn in sharp contrast to her friends and the young men, and portrayed as virtuous, good, moral, even chaste. Is she another example of a character of true goodness like the Bishop? Why does she love T?

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Hugo's telling his readers that society's treatment of someone determines the type of person that someone will become, a kind of society-fulfilled prophecy rather than a self-fulfilled one. But Valjean is teetering over the edge of the abyss in that bedroom."

This section kept making me think about Frankenstein, where the 'creature' is forced to become a reflection of society's image of him.

I like the way Hugo makes Valjean so vicious here - it feels realistic given what he's endured for the 'crime' of stealing a loaf of bread. It also makes the turnaround all the more significant.

That long section where we see VJ's inner thoughts is also brilliantly done, I think - he admits his crime of stealing but judges that his punishment is not commensurate with what he actually did.

I would say environment has a lot to do with behavior.

I've knew one person who had a religious experience very much like the ones described by William James. Everything about them changed. Whether it lasted or was transitory -- something James wonders -- I do not know.

Mary and Joseph? I do not know. Interesting possibility though. Will we continue to see religious symbolism throughout the book?

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Jean Valjean is reborn! The good work of the bishop bears fruit.

Some half thought thoughts.

Valjean is a dangerous and spiteful man. Those moments in the bishop's bedroom show how dangerous he c..."

Agree it is interesting how Jean Valjean is portrayed, he is apparently every bit the hardened criminal that everyone has automatically dismissed him as, and it seems that everyone was right to reject him. Yet Hugo does go out of his way to enable the reader to sympathize with him at the same time, to have you really feel terrible that he is cold, that he is hungry, that his feet are tired, that even a dog won't let him sleep in its bed. When he was in the Bishop's bedroom it was unclear to me if he would harm the Bishop or just steal the silver, and if he had awoken the Bishop I wonder what would have happened. In a way Jean Valjean was the ideal person for the Bishop to come across, because a human being could not sink any lower, and the Bishop uses it as an opportunity to demonstrate kindness and mercy to all, as well as attempt to instill in him the concept of reform.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "I would say environment has a lot to do with behavior.

I've knew one person who had a religious experience very much like the ones described by William James. Everything about them changed. Whethe..."

It's a good question. People have so many motivations to be drawn towards religion, some are environmental, some are cultural, some are familial, and I suspect there are many adherents to a particular organized religion who follow it even though they have not had a 'religious transformation', or even an inner fervent religious belief that they have always maintained. Holding steadfast in a true religious belief is another matter also- what do you do when life or circumstances cause you to doubt your fundamental religious beliefs? How do you know if religion is fundamental to your nature as a human being or ancillary, and what is necessary in order for it to be maintained?

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Mary and Joseph? I do not know. Interesting possibility though. Will we continue to see religious symbolism throughout the book?"

In the Bible's Gospel of Luke, Mary, mother of Jesus was pregnant and desperately looking for an inn. They were rejected from a number of inns and ultimately Mary gave birth to Jesus in a manger with animals in the stable. In the Bible, however, it seems that there was genuinely no room - there was no value judgment associated with the refusal to accept them at the inns.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Mary and Joseph? I do not know. Interesting possibility though. Will we continue to see religious symbolism throughout the book?"

I'm not sure! I'm not an expert on this at all it just jogged my memory of this particular Bible story.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Hugo's telling his readers that society's treatment of someone determines the type of person that someone will become, a kind of society-fulfilled prophecy rather than a s..."

Great comparison to Frankenstein! I haven't read that in decades, I should turn back to it. I always just keep thinking of it as a 'halloween' book and it really isn't. The passages about JV's transformation were wonderful, I agree. It was almost a letdown to move to Book Three which had so much less substance. I can't wait to see where this character goes from here, he has been "dazzled and, so to speak, blinded by virtue," but, as Xan points out, we will have to see if it sticks.

Roman Clodia wrote: "That long section where we see VJ's inner thoughts is also brilliantly done, I think - he admits his crime of stealing but judges that his punishment is not commensurate with what he actually did..."

I like the comparison to Frankenstein too.

For me VJ's punishment is a bit of a muddle. Yes, 5 years is too much for his crime by our standards. but probably not by mid-nineteenth century standards; and it's 5 years, not 20. It ends up 20 because he keeps trying to escape.

When is his first attempt at escaping -- his 4th year? Why? Put up with one more year and you're out. Why do that? He makes bad decisions. He has to bear some of the responsibility for his plight. That makes him more realistic too.

Requiring Valjean to show his yellow passport (with the word "dangerous" included) to every police station along his travels almost guarantees his continued incarceration. Who will give him a job? They won't even feed him. It's a vicious circle with a bit of the chicken or the egg thrown in. Is he in prison because he was dangerous or dangerous because he was in prison?

Dianne wrote: "I'm not sure! I'm not an expert on this at all it just jogged my memory of this particular Bible story. ..."

I didn't even know.

Yes, realistically it would make more sense to not escape but I suspect Hugo is trying to draw out points about VJ's non-acceptance of his sentence (even 5 years for a loaf of bread is unjust), and his quest for freedom. Even if he hadn't escaped, he would still have had the yellow passport and be designated an ex-convict - vicious circle, as you say.

Dianne wrote: "What do you think of the character of Fantine? She is drawn in sharp contrast to her friends and the young men, and portrayed as virtuous, good, moral, even chaste."

Fantine in this section is quite a romanticized figure, both 'madonna and whore' to use a cliche. She's definitely less knowing than the other girls and has retained an innocence that is almost simple. She seems to love T because he's the only man to have paid attention to her, even when he absent-mindedly kisses one of the other girls.

Did I miss it or does Hugo withhold her age? We know she's the youngest, is nicknamed 'the baby'. I suspect she could be younger than we'd like to think: 14, 15?

I like the way Hugo presents the outing in the country as if it's a bucolic interlude but then reveals the real feelings of both the girls who talk about the meanness of the students, and the careless cruelty of the men.

This is an interesting book. Several young people who at first appear to be gay and in love are anything but. The way Fortune and the others act when deserted by their men tells a different story. This is a book of contradictions and illusions.

Tholomyès

Tholomyès is described by the narrator as "falling apart yet blooming." I love that contradiction. He also describes himself as an "illusion." He is not particularly good looking, but he is quick of wit and word.

Fantine

Tholomyès describes Fantine as a phantom, a nymph, a dreamer, a sensitive soul with the "prudery of a nun who strayed into the life of a grisette." Grisette is a word whose meaning has changed over time. According to Wikipedia, in the first quarter 19th century a grisette was a woman who "formed relationships with artists and poets more committed than prostitution but less so than a mistress."

Fantine the nun who is a nymph. More contradictions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grisett...

Fantine is deserted by her lover, but she isn't an innocent either -- just like Valjean.

I enjoyed book 2 and meeting Jean Valjean. I think Hugo is making some interesting points about prison which are still relevant now (although I don’t know if Hugo shared these opinions or if I’m just making them fit my own!). 5 years for a loaf of bread is a lot. Valjean goes from being tearful when sentenced to the person who tries to escape about 4 years and then to the person who steals from a child 20 years later once released. Prison turned him from somebody trying to do the right thing for his family into a hardened criminal. I think that is why he tried to escape fort the first time after 4 years, until then he hadn’t being fully corrupted by the broken system. I think this is still true today, people tend to learn more crime in prison than before it.

I struggled with book 3. There were so many annotations to the text that I was constantly flicking to the back of my copy to work out what was going on. This broke the flow of the chapter and I didn’t feel I gained much from it. I understand it as an introduction to Fantine but I suspect we won’t be seeing much of the four students (I may be wrong) yet the whole book seemed to focus on them.

Hi Heather!

I skipped over most of the footnotes. Like you said, too many.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "This is an interesting book. Several young people who at first appear to be gay and in love are anything but. The way Fortune and the others act when deserted by their men tells a different story. ..."

Sorry I have been absent. I've been reading the discussion, and am way ahead in the book, but I'm looking for a condo.

I thought Fantine was way out of her league. I think we've all met some people and decided to get together with them to socialize, only to realize, too late, they were not like us at all. One way or another, their behavior was shocking, and maybe even harmful, even if no harm was intended. The girls (except Fantine) seemed to be interested in what they could get out of whom, and the boys knew all along they'd dump the girls. But to each of them, their behavior was acceptable. That was quite realistic to me.

Fantine and Valjean are calculating. Neither is risk averse, but each plays his hand.

I am drawing parallels between Father Welcome and Javert. The padre was so very selfless and devoted to God, and Javert is so devoted to the law. I've always seen Javert as mean and vengeful, but having met Father Welcome, I think it is more that he is driven and single-minded.

Hummingbirder wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "This is an interesting book. Several young people who at first appear to be gay and in love are anything but. The way Fortune and the others act when deserted by their men..."

I agree, Fantine did not know what to expect from the situation she was in and as a consequence has been the one to be hurt.

I'm interested to get going with the next section and might do tomorrow.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "That long section where we see VJ's inner thoughts is also brilliantly done, I think - he admits his crime of stealing but judges that his punishment is not commensurate with w..."

why did he keep trying to escape knowing he would get so much more prison time??

Roman Clodia wrote: "Yes, realistically it would make more sense to not escape but I suspect Hugo is trying to draw out points about VJ's non-acceptance of his sentence (even 5 years for a loaf of bread is unjust), and..."

really a life sentence then - with the yellow passport.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Dianne wrote: "What do you think of the character of Fantine? She is drawn in sharp contrast to her friends and the young men, and portrayed as virtuous, good, moral, even chaste."

Fantine in this..."

it's a good point - I totally bought into the 'love story' at first! What a bunch of baloney! Hugo really pulled a fast one on us there. We knew the other ladies had their flaws, but I at least believed there was one sincere love match out of the lot.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "This is an interesting book. Several young people who at first appear to be gay and in love are anything but. The way Fortune and the others act when deserted by their men tells a different story. ..."

T actually sounds like a real loser! Hugo makes him sound old before his years, entirely unattractive, rather a cad (he kissed the wrong girl), and ultimately, incredibly selfish. Yet Fantine 'truly' loved him?

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "This is an interesting book. Several young people who at first appear to be gay and in love are anything but. The way Fortune and the others act when deserted by their men tells a different story. ..."

Fantine the nun who is a nymph - I think absolutely possible! This is a young girl who had no guidance, no experience - was totally ignorant. She had no judgment and was swept up with the tide ... as we shall see she has little control over her own life.

Heather wrote: "I enjoyed book 2 and meeting Jean Valjean. I think Hugo is making some interesting points about prison which are still relevant now (although I don’t know if Hugo shared these opinions or if I’m ju..."

Agree with you Heather - the 'criminal justice' system often is anything but just - both from sentencing to begin with to the actual result. I suppose it is stretching believability that JV would have reformed given the length of his sentence - and he probably 'hardened' out of necessity in order to survive.

Hummingbirder wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "This is an interesting book. Several young people who at first appear to be gay and in love are anything but. The way Fortune and the others act when deserted by their men..."

Interesting that you think Fantine is calculating! I thought she was just too naive and was taken advantage of. Javert - I agree that it is too simple to paint him as the 'bad guy' - he is trying so hard to be anything but.

I am pretty far behind on the red, but am trying to catch up. So many books to read, so little time!

Book 2 was a great introduction to Jean Valjean. Hugo seems to be saying that prison made him the way he is when he comes out. Granted, he wasn't perfect when he went in, but I don't think you would have considered him "dangerous" like he is when he was released. It's easy to say he should have just served an extra year and finish out his sentence, but would he have been given a yellow passport on his release even then? Having been in there for 4 years already, and brooding over how unfair his sentence was, to me it's easy to see why he would want to get out of there and try to escape.

I don't know about the Bible reference, but I think Valjean was turned away just because of who he was. He wasn't even allowed to stay on a job once they found out he was just released from prison. Even the worst inn in town wouldn't have anything to do with him. Even though he's deemed dangerous by his yellow slip, and tells the Bishop he's just been released from prison, the Bishop welcomes him to spend the night and stay for dinner (much to the dismay of his sister and Mme Magloire). I don't know if he would have harmed the Bishop if he woke up during the night when he was stealing the silver, but he did arm himself with a spike before he went into the room.

After his encounter with the Bishop about the silver, he seemed confused as to why the Bishop would want to help him, and wanted him to promise to use the money to become a good man. When he steals the coin from Petit-Gervais, I think something may have changed in him at that point, and I'm curious to see what he's up to when we meet him next.

Since my previous post was a little wordy, I decided to split it up.

So Book 3 introduces Fantine, and she's described as modest and virtuous. She doesn't know her family, and is only called Fantine because that is what a woman who was passing by called her. At 15 she moves to Paris "to seek her fortune", so I'm guessing she is 16, maybe 17 when the guys dump them at the tavern. Before they put their plan into motion one of them mentions that the girls had been bothering them about that secret for over a year.

To me she doesn't seem calculating, she seems extremely naive. She fell in love with the first person to really show her any attention, which when you think about it, happens to teenagers all the time, so I thought that was believable. She doesn't have the experience of the other girls, and is devastated when they are left there because she thought Tholomyes loved her as well. He says "she is a dreamer, a sensitive soul, a wraith shaped like a nymph with the downcast eyes of a nun who has drifted into the life of a grisette but takes refuge in illusion." "I am an illusion", he says to her, but she's not listening, she's only thinking of him as her true love. And at the end of the book, we find out she had a child. I think it's easy to feel a little sorry for Fantine, at least for me.

Renee wrote: "I am pretty far behind on the red, but am trying to catch up. So many books to read, so little time!..."

Hi, Renee. Good to see others posting.

Like you say, JV wasn't dangerous at all before he went in. All those years in prison made him so. I'm thinking he would have been issued a yellow passport, whether he had escaped or not, because he's still an ex-con, but it may not have included the word "dangerous." Just guessing, but several escapes, plus (IIRC) resisting arrest at least once, probably got the "dangerous" added to JV's passport. And he was dangerous. That scene in the bishop's room while the bishop sleeps is fraught with menace.

I don't think making an escape attempt with one year left in your sentence makes sense, but maybe these escapes are a plot device? JV's transformation after meeting the bishop is all the more powerful for his having spent 19 instead of 5 years in prison, and he's getting angrier and angrier with each passing year.

I'm also thinking Hugo portrays JV as a good but flawed person (in the same way none of us are perfect) so readers will better relate to him. Here's an average Joe, just like me, not overly good and certainly not bad, who because of circumstances suffers under the iron arm of an unfair social and legal system that will never loosen its grip. I think Hugo wants us to think the same of Fantine. He wants her to be a good but flawed person. All the better to relate to.

Great discussion, everyone! This book is packed with contradictions, it goes right down to the sentence. Fantine being a madonna & a whore, great call!!

Jean being like Mary & Joseph looking for an inn ... that's interesting, I never considered it. If that's the case, Hugo is alluding to that story while fusing 2 characters into 1 while eliminating gender. It would be a man reduced to a poverty stricken hobo seeking shelter. Rather than a married virgin & her husband, it's an ex-convicted man. Conviction means he was judged by society to be guilty of something. And society is judging him still.

In the Mary story, she was innocent but would have been judged (I think people would have shunned her so Joseph agreed to keep the conception a secret until they were married. Everyone just assumed Joseph was the father) Then they were turned away because of the town's poverty? They didn't have room, until one man showed kindness and made room available for them.

Jean escaping, there's some kind of psychology study today. I think impulse control where if someone is placed in a certain situation, they will always choose the immediate reward rather than waiting a bit for a bigger reward. I wonder if this study was used to be biased against prisoners or low income folks? If it's a way of saying they are stupid therefore justifying their mistreatment by society or jail.

Another side to it could be, Jean was simply desperate and wanted to escape. Imagine coming home from a jog or intense workout, getting in the door, you'll crave water and perhaps ignore other things to get the water 1st. Perhaps ... walk in the house with your shoes on? It's far less of a big deal then a prison escape, but perhaps it can help us to understand his desperation. Prison back then I'd imagine to be exceedingly inhumane.

JV is an interesting character and a great demonstration of how we treat some in our society can change them completely. In JV's case both the prison system and the bishop have this impact. I also think it is easy for us to wonder why JV tried to escape when he only had a year to go of his prison term but let's not forget that prison, which is not a great place today, is like the lap of luxury compared to what prison time meant then.

Poor, foolish Fantine. I think Hugo gave a number of clues to the fact that T was a complete cad that she was too blinded by her emotions to see.

Mary and Joseph were turned away because there was an empire-wide census causing everyone to return to their hometowns and literally every inn was packed with no room. The inn keeper where they ended up staying is seen as a generous figure because he at least offers the stable of the animals so she can rest and have her baby, and he seems genuinely saddened that it's all the space he has to offer, but that's more than the other innkeepers did. So in the respect of offering what little he has, the Bishop is like the innkeeper. And I suppose JV is going "home?"