The Readers discussion

I just listened to this episode and was going to chime in, but no one has posted yet. That means I'm the first (GULP). Hope I'm doing it right.

Anyway, I loved this episode. And Simon, thank you so much for making an effort to be heard better. It really made a difference.

As to the topic of sex, I'm with you, Thomas. I really don't like reading graphic sex in novels and for the exact reason you gave: I don't want to be titillated. I was so glad to hear you say this. I've said this to others and have received many blank looks. Perhaps they're like Simon and don't get titillated by scenes in books, which don't seem real to them. But it does seem real to me, and what's more I find it a little invasive and manipulative. And I've had the same thought about the old man writing the scene and getting off on it, and I don't want that image in my head either!

As to politics, I find it boring at times. In the Palliser novels, I kind of skimmed over parts of it that got too involved, but Trollope is such a good writer that I really didn't have to skim too much I really can't think of a good political novel, (Seven Days in May?) maybe because I tend to avoid them.

Now, as to religion. I am a devout Christian. I feel very vulnerable admitting this, but you asked, and I do have opinions in this area. I think most fiction marketed by Christian booksellers are quite treacly and...what is it? It's like eating porridge for every meal. And not good porridge. How I long for some excellent literary writers to come forward with Christian themes. (There are many good non-fiction books available, though.) I don't think I avoid any books due to my faith, except perhaps books that are dark and despairing, where life doesn't have any meaning, and everyone is evil. But that is not too many books. I prefer not to read books in which we are put in the head of an evil person. For instance, I really like J.K. Rowling's mystery series, but in the third installment-- in alternate chapters-- we are privy to the killer's thoughts. I just skipped over those chapters. I don't want those thoughts in my head. But I think I would feel the same way if I were not a Christian.

For me, as a Christian, I find the bigger issue is simply locating books that share my world view without resorting to pablum. The Susan Howatch Stargate series is my idea of a fabulous set of books that explore some of the issues I have as a follower of Christ. But they are quite realistic about people in the Church of England and the things they get up to. I think you would like them, Thomas. One actually stars a monk who has quite a few mystical abilities. The author takes a great story and uses it to explore religion and that is good. The story must come first.

Also, for other Christian readers (and anyone else familiar with the Bible), Lamb, the Gospel According to Biff was highly amusing.

Thanks for mentioning the Susan Howatch Stargate series. That was a fabulous set of books. I thought of them during the podcast. I agree that Thomas might like them.

I am not religious in any way. I have read the first two Marilyn Robinson books (Giliad and Home) and I didn't find them preachy at all personally. What I would avoid is books like the Left Behind series.

I dislike romance as a genre so I don't care if it is Amish or Bengali...I am not going to read it.

I laughed so much listening to this latest podcast! TMI Simon, TMI :D.

I like Marilynne Robinson, too, and don't feel like she has an agenda (but I felt there was definitely an agenda going in the Poisonwood Bible). Agree on Left Behind series.

I dislike the romance genre too, although I make an exception for the Georgette Heyer books, which are just too much fun.

Nice to find another person who liked the Stargate series!

I also enjoyed the Stargate series. Thomas would enjoy them, I think, as they're quite Trollopian. I listened to most of them on audiobook (back in cassette days!) & have fond memories.

I don't mind graphic sex scenes if they are well written, which is rare, but it can be embarrassing because I mostly read on my commute! (no body actually knows why I am blushing but it still feels like they do)

I am Jewish and find it a little wearing that so many European authors assume that everyone celebrates Christmas (Harry Potter, I am looking at you)
Reading more from asian authors does remedy that.

On the other hand there are some excellent books including Jewish themes and thankfully they are a lot more sophisticated than the Adam 'Let's spin the driedl' Sandler 'Jewish' fodder that Hollywood produces.

Two of my favourites are Lilian Nattel's The River Midnight and Michael Chabon's The Yiddish Policemen's Union.

Esther wrote: "On the other hand there are some excellent books including Jewish themes ..."

Oh Esther, have you ever read The Song of Names by Norman Lebrecht? One of my favorite books and it has a fascinating Jewish theme.

Kim wrote: "I just listened to this episode and was going to chime in, but no one has posted yet. That means I'm the first (GULP). Hope I'm doing it right.

Anyway, I loved this episode. And Simon, thank you s..."

So glad you started the discussion. I was worried that we would either be offensive or too polite to say anything worth listening too. I haven't listened yet to the whole episode.

As it relates to religion I think what separates the good from the bad are those that integrate it into the DNA of the book and those that seem to be self-conscious about it.

Have you read any Graham Greene? Many talk about his "Catholic books" but I don't find them particularly focused on religion even when they have religious figures in them. I guess he deals with issues of religion but I never feel like he hits the reader over the head with it.

I think the discussion unintentionally went a bit SciFi on us. Is it Starbridge series or Stargate series?

I think for all three of the "taboo topics," I want the author to show me and not tell me. I'm kind of ornery and when I get told too much how I should feel I push back (and get really, really annoyed) even if at some level I agree with the point of view that's getting shoved down my throat. But show me a well-developed character with a different point of view or put us in a particular situation that emphasizes the religious or political topic you want to highlight, and I'll empathize with it and be much more open about it. It's the difference between demanding someone show up to a function or inviting them to join in. Nuance is always better. And that goes for sex scenes, too. I wouldn't say they bother me, but I think it's more impactful in a novel when there's a bit left unsaid rather than having graphic scenes that are better suited for erotica or romance novels.

I just finished a long-awaited final book of a series where the author got way too preachy and it definitely altered my view of the entire series.

Thomas wrote: "Esther wrote: "On the other hand there are some excellent books including Jewish themes ..."

Oh Esther, have you ever read The Song of Names by Norman Lebrecht? One of my favorite books and it has..."

No but it is on my TBR list now.

I am looking forward to reading The Leftovers because I found the first season of the TV series quite spiritually moving and several people have said that the adaptation is close to the book.

Am I the only one to notice the fluctuation in volume on Simon's part? At time the volume was good, other times I could barely hear him. I enjoyed the episode never the less, but needed to keep adjusting the volume.

Tom wrote: "Am I the only one to notice the fluctuation in volume on Simon's part? At time the volume was good, other times I could barely hear him. I enjoyed the episode never the less, but needed to keep adj..."
In the past I've noticed a fluctuation between Simon and Thomas's voices, but this episode was fine - I had no problems hearing Simon and didn't notice a fluctuation at all.

I completely agree with Katherine here. I much prefer a book that portrays different political/religious ideas objectively and allows the reader to make up their own mind on the characters and the ideas they espouse.

A book that was in my mind while listening to this episode was Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I found myself completely turned off by the disdainful way Rand portrays characters whose views conflicted with her own. The narrative was totally muted by the personal agenda she seemed to be pushing - it really felt like poorly disguised propaganda. Who wants to curl up with that Sunday morning?

Oh also, Esther, if you read down this far: I recommend Here I Am by Jonathon Safran Foer. The juxtaposition of the traditional values of Judaism and the modern, more secular world was playful and a lot of fun to read.

Thomas wrote: "I think the discussion unintentionally went a bit SciFi on us. Is it Starbridge series or Stargate series?"

Oops! Ha ha. It is the STARBRIDGE series by Susan Howatch, starting with Glittering Images.

I loved this episode! Simon made me really laugh with some of his comments!

I totally agree with Thomas about graphic sex scenes. I’m not a prude either, but detailed sex in books is just not my thing. Especially when so many times it’s there just to be there. I hate when there’s no real point to it. I will often skip over such scenes.

I do feel that I would need to know a person’s political views at least pretty soon after a first date. I feel too strongly about certain things and couldn’t handle being with someone who has totally different views. They don’t have to be exactly like mine, but not too far off. Not to mention they MUST love animals. Not liking animals would be a dealbreaker! That would definitely come up on the first date!

I don’t mind reading books with religious themes as long as they aren’t too preachy. I was raised Catholic, but don’t practice any longer. Like Simon, cults do fascinate me! And I do enjoy non-fiction books about religion. I love to learn about things I’m not familiar with.

I could hear Simon so much better in this episode! I always listen in the car and usually have to play with the volume so I can hear him. Looking forward to the next episode. Miss your banter when you’re gone too long!

As it relates to religion I think what separates the good from the bad are those that integrate it into the DNA of the book and those that seem to be self-conscious about it."

That's a really good way to put it. Diane Duane's Young Wizards series is one of my favorite series ever, and it's pretty obviously Christian, but I don't mind despite not sharing Duane's religious views. It's the difference between a "book that is Christian" and "Christian books" which tend to the glurge.

Esther wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Esther wrote: "On the other hand there are some excellent books including Jewish themes ..."

Oh Esther, have you ever read The Song of Names by Norman Lebrecht? One of my favorite b..."

AND, the audio recording is perhaps the best performed audio book I have ever listened to.

I'm still having a very difficult time hearing Simon if I listen in the car. Simon, does your mic have gain control? I have the opposite problem in my recording setup where I'm always having to turn myself down down down.

I don't mind sex in books but I feel like it should have a purpose. I think it should really show me something about the two (or more haha) people involved. To that end I'm not sure I need a description of the member/unit/patch whatever.

I feel sometimes like authors get stuck and that's when we end up with excruciating meal descriptions, dream sequences, and sex scenes. I feel like they should use them to write themselves out of holes, but pretty please, cut it from the final version unless it has a purpose!

I know my characters are eating and pooping without needing to read about them doing it. Unless the book is about those things. I feel the same about sex. Unless the book is about it, and sometimes it is, anything having to do with relationships or self-worth etc etc.

I'll gladly avoid political talk in my daily life and in my reading though.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "... dream sequences, and sex scenes...."

On second thought, I'll take sex scenes over dream sequences any day.

I’m not, and never have been, religious, but I do enjoy reading novels that are about religion as long as they aren’t trying to tell me how to live my life. I love Graham Greene’s Catholic novels (eg, The End Of The Affair, The Heart Of The Matter, Brighton Rock) because I like the way Greene uses the faith of his characters to explore human nature (without, as Thomas says, hitting the reader over his head with his religious beliefs). I also like Evelyn Waugh even though I don’t share the religious beliefs that underpin many of his novels. I recently read Silence by the Japanese writer Shūsaku Endo and was fascinated not only by what it taught me about Catholicism and religious intolerance in 17th century Japan but also by the depiction of religious faith in the face of terrible persecution. I liked it because, not being religious, I learnt a little about something that is not part of my life.

I'm pretty shameless about what the content of my reading is, as long as it entertains me. I don't mind sex scenes in my books, though it does make me wonder at which point something turns into erotica.

Politics in books sounds so dull, though I do like a fictional political thriller, especially a historical one. I agree with Simon that books like Fire and Fury (or whatever) are uninteresting. I also think they tend to age super quickly.

For religion in books, I don't usually mind it. I think I must be one of the few people who harbors no resentment at being raised Catholic (though no longer practicing), so I really enjoyed the cultural Catholicism of "Brideshead Revisited", and I especially loved "The Sparrow" where religion provided a context for the thought processes of the characters, if that makes sense. I also think having a diverse range of spirituality helps.

Borg wrote: "Oh also, Esther, if you read down this far: I recommend Here I Am by Jonathon Safran Foer. The juxtaposition of the traditional values of Judaism and the modern, more secular world was playful and a lot of fun to read. ."

Sorry I can't stand JSF. I did enjoy The History of Love by Nicole Krauss but her latest Forest Dark was disappointing.

I don't mind sex scenes as long as they have a purpose. The scene should be working toward developing a character, furthering the plot, or contributing to a theme. If it's just there to excite the reader, that's poor writing.

I enjoy books that explore religious themes. I loved The Sparrow, and Silence was very interesting. I don't like authors who use stereotypical religious characters: the hypocritical evangelist, the judgmental church lady, the mystical foreigner.

I guess I like sex scenes and religious books when they are done well, and dislike them when the authors default to stereotypes.

Melissa wrote: "I don't mind sex scenes as long as they have a purpose. The scene should be working toward developing a character, furthering the plot, or contributing to a theme. If it's just there to excite the ..."

The Sparrow was a book that wouldn't have worked without the religion but it never felt that the author was trying to convert the reader. What an amazing novel, one of the best in my opinion.

I’m glad I’m not the only one. I find sex intrusive in fiction much of the time, but I don’t mind it if it’s either short or really written well. Often I find it’s not written well.

In Her Body and Other Parties, Carmen Maria Machado throws around, uhm, slang terms for genitals like she was paid by the word. I could not finish that book. How dare she make me feel like a priss.

Religion is fine, as long as I don’t perceive the author to be pushing an agenda.

I'm one of those people who disliked The Sparrow.
As scifi/speciulative fiction the alien world-building was weak and the ending was rushed. The use of certain cliches left me feeling she was using the space travel as a macguffin to hang her story on and then lost interest in the alien-life forms.
But my biggest beef was that the author seemed to be so concerned about not offending anyone the whole 'discussion' became superficial and trite when it could have been deeply thought-provoking if a little controversial.

I am not a huge fan of The Sparrow either, mostly because I am not a fan of bleak. However, having said that, as an Orthodox Christian, I do appreciate writing about faith that does it well. As someone else said, I appreciate it in the DNA of the story, not as a bludgeon to make me believe the same as they do.
I am a judicious skimmer (mostly over bleak and violence) but will skim over sex scenes as well - usually, I want to know the gist for plot advancement, but not the details.

I *mostly* liked The Sparrow but felt it got, not preachy so much as more philosophical than I was interested in. The idea of the Jesuits and their pursuit of science/knowledge offers a calming alternative to anti-intellectual religions of all stripes.

My biggest problem with The Sparrow was *spoiler* the rather cliched use of sexual assault of a male as if it were somehow worse, or more degrading that sexual assault of a female.

Thomas wrote: "My biggest problem with The Sparrow was *spoiler* .."

Yep I found that offensive in its 'laziness' and made worse by the assumption that all aliens have human-compatible physiology.
Also most of the Jesuits in the first part of the story were quite kind but even the nicer church members were judgemental and unforgiving towards Sandoz. They accused him without even trying to imagine an alternate explanation. (view spoiler)[Seriously you find a priest naked, imprisoned and alone and you assume he was a willing sex-slave?? (hide spoiler)]
I thought it had such potential for showing a faith-based (non-preachy) solution for handling PTSD and finding forgiveness. I wish she had spent as much effort exploring this aspect as she did on the question of linguistics.

Love how this thread has morphed in to a discussion about The Sparrow! I thought the book was amazing but so sad. I could not re-read it. And for all the bleakness in the book, it is only one scene and death that broke me (view spoiler)[ where Father Emilio kills Askama (hide spoiler)] and can still make me cry if I think too long on it.

I think the book IS about forgiveness; in particular Father Emilio’s need to forgive himself. And it is about hubris. I agree with Ester that the author tailored the plotting and alien anatomy etc. to get to this end goal, but it didn’t notice this at the time of reading. It is only when people point it out to me now that I see it. But given the facts, the sketchy information that those on Earth have, I don’t think it is unreasonable that everyone assumed the worst about Father Emilio. Humans are judgmental and unforgiving regardless of their religious orientation. It is something I personally have to fight in myself every day (with varying degrees of success).

Has anyone read The Book of Strange New Things? It gets compared to The Sparrow, but I don’t really see the connection except for the use of Sci-Fi (aliens, other planets) to explore our human concept of faith.

Ruthiella wrote: "Love how this thread has morphed in to a discussion about The Sparrow! I thought the book was amazing but so sad. I could not re-read it. And for all the bleakness in the book, it is only one scene..."

I thought the Sparrow was good, but I wasn't surprised to learn it was the author's first fiction book; I found some of the dialog stilted and clichéd. I preferred the second book, Children of God. Re the podcast ep, like Thomas, not at all a prude but not crazy about sex in my books. Not sure why, I just don't care for it. But the biggest takeaway from the episode for me was....I can't wait for the next one to hear the details of The Readers meet up! I hope I can make it!

Tracy wrote: "I’m also going to be in the minority here I guess and admit that reading inappropriately is the only thing saving me at the moment..."

The funny thing is the kind of romances I escape into are the sooo sexless it's almost comical. Like D.E. Stevenson. The girl and boy always get together, but it is so chaste you wonder how any of them ever managed to have kids.

Tracy wrote: For example, It’s gross when Stephen King writes sex. Charlaine Harris has made my face scrunch up too. But Judy Blume writes it honestly and awkwardly and teenage me appreciated that. I’m sure there are other writers who succeed as well. It has its place

Yes to everything you said. King had this analogy to sex in 11/22/63 that I think was "pound cake." Some kind of cake, anyway it made me want to join a convent every time he used it. And do I have to bring up the sex in It?

I almost mentioned in my comment above that Charlaine Harris once used the word "phallus" in a sex scene and I was done after that.

Judy Blume's sex scenes in Forever . . . were mostly great, insofar as they advanced the story line. The ones in Wifey, on the other hand, were traumatic (then again, I read that when I was around 13.)

Hi Tracy, I just copied part of your text and used the html italics tag.

I do agree with you: when I read romance (which I only do when my brain can't manage anything else), I want it dirty. DIR-TY. I discovered in my Kindle shopping a few years ago that there was, to my surprise, a too dirty/too weird for me line.

(I'm telling you guys, don't try to test that line in the Amazon romance e-book market. You'll be scarred for life.)

But I like my literary fiction chaste for the most part. I'm complex!

Tracy wrote: "I don’t want to hijack the thread with this, but apparently there’s a romance/erotica with Colonel Sanders. It’s on my TBR."
I don't read romance, but I am astounded and entertained by the sub-genres and sub-sub-genres: NASCAR romance, paranormal romance, Bigfoot romance... Colonel Sanders? I don't want to know if and how chicken is used!

Also, for romance novel enthusiasts of The Readers, there is a really great website devoted to romance called Smart Bitches, Trashy Books: http://smartbitchestrashybooks.com/

Tracy wrote: "I don’t know how to copy the part I’m responding to (how do I do that?)"

I hit the reply button, then replace the part of the post that's there by copy/pasting the bit I want to reply to.

Ruthiella wrote: "Has anyone read The Book of Strange New Things?.."

I really want to especially as the person who recommended it has previously made some great recommendations.

Very late to the party on this topic....this episode was really an interesting listen.

I enjoy a challenging read and loved A Little Life. I was so enthused—convinced both of my book clubs to give it a try. Let's just say it was not a popular choice. The most pointed comment? "It's nothing more than 720 pages of anti-Catholicism." Whaaat? I wasn't expecting that at all.

But then I got to thinking about growing up Catholic myself. Many Catholics (mostly my parent's age) saw anti-Catholic prejudice everywhere and painted it all with a very broad brush. I was surprised to see this type of thinking from one of my friends.

I try to respect others' viewpoints but am always taken aback by this type of thinking that totally steamrollers over every other aspect of plot and character.

Not sure you can delete comments in the app, but I think you can from the Goodreads website.

I like a challenging read myself, and A Little Life certainly checked all the boxes in that category. It was a book club member who objected so strongly, and behaved like I was personally challenging and disrespecting her faith.

Again, I try to respect other views, but felt her reaction was a bit over the top.

Ruthiella, I have. I realize you asked the question months ago but here is my review if you're still deciding......https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Janet wrote: "Ruthiella, I have. I realize you asked the question months ago but here is my review if you're still deciding......https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."
Thanks Janet!