Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

This is our discussion of the contemporary fantasy novel...

Tooth and Claw by Jo Walton
(2004. World Fantasy Award for Best Novel.)

I enjoyed quite a bit more than I thought I would at the start. Guess I’m a sucker for Victorian Dragons?

Rachel wrote: "I enjoyed quite a bit more than I thought I would at the start. Guess I’m a sucker for Victorian Dragons?"

Last night I was thinking... It's Jane Austen, but with dragons! :)

Yep it’s Pride and Prejudice with Dragons. Which reminded me a bit of the Temeraire - Witty draconic dialogue

Actually it's more Victorian. The plot is based on that of FRAMLEY PARSONAGE, by Anthony Trollope. But this is surely one of the great dragon books of all time; the notion that dragons can have an elaborate social structure is just grand.

It was meant to be Victorian but since most of my references for this kind of style is Austen I was also picturing a Regency novel with humans replaced by dragons and taking it to the logical conclusions.

I liked that though they were human-level sentient they still acted like dragons. They didn't have furniture, liked to sleep on gold, and ate their meat raw (and had servants wipe them down afterwards *shudders*) and their clothing was limited to hats and maybe a piece of jewelry or two.

Talking of flying, the rules on who was allowed to fly was an interesting quirk, and the whole cannibalism thing horrifying. The characters spent a fair amount of time thinking about that aspect, which at first I felt it was just the author trying to make a point but then, if I was in daily risk of being eaten by someone twice my size, I'd probably think about it a lot too! Plus it didn't hurt to be reminded from time to time that no matter how human-like their customs, they are definitely NOT human.

As people might have noticed, I've been reading a lot of dragon books lately and I can definitely say, this concept is unique.

Andrea wrote: "Ithe whole cannibalism thing horrifying. The characters spent a fair amount of time thinking about that aspect, which at first I felt it was just the author trying to make a point..."

Apparently cannibalism is necessary to grow up big & strong, something about dragon "magic" in the flesh. It also enforces a survival of the most ruthless. On his death bed, Bon Agornin seemed to feel some guilt about some of his meals, even though his size suggested he dined on his species quite often. (I'm only half way through, so can't say for sure there's not backstory to be told, but it doesn't seem the novel is headed that way.)


Andrea wrote: "I liked that though they were human-level sentient they still acted like dragons.... Plus it didn't hurt to be reminded from time to time that no matter how human-like their customs, they are definitely NOT human. ..."

I thought it was cute that Walton used terms like couchant, rampant & sejant to describe posture, those terms being from heraldry, where dragons are often depicted in those poses. It reinforces the anatomical different between a human lying down or sitting and a 4-legged winged critter.

G33z3r wrote: "I thought it was cute that Walton used terms like couchant, rampant & sejant..."

I thought that was a nice touch too.

For Bon's backstory...he didn't confess his big shame at the start of the book? About his first *cough* meal that got him growing? I'm trying to remember if that came out a little later but I think it was all part of the initial confession.

Yes I think it was the initial confession, with the added stigma that confessions were no longer deemed appropriate. All the little touches, like the females actually not having claws and so forth was very clever

Walton has clearly read THE FLIGHT OF DRAGONS by Peter Dickinson, which goes into why dragons have to eat other dragons. The poem by C.S. Lewis says, "Worm grows not to dragon unless he eats worm."

Brenda wrote: "Walton has clearly read THE FLIGHT OF DRAGONS by Peter Dickinson, which goes into why dragons have to eat other dragons. "

Guess that part didn't make it into the movie :) Interesting how the movie is really a combination of two books that happen to be written by two different authors from two different countries that both have the last name Dickinson. Peter's provided the look of the dragons and the "science" behind them while Gordon's provided the plot.

I found this book delightful. I listened to it and the narration was excellent. I love Victorian lit and it's amusing to think what would have happened if Victorians could eat each other when they got angry!

Jo Walton has an amazing range, writing this kind of pastiche, other fantasy, and alternate history, all very well. And if anyone in this group doesn't know her book of reviews from her blog, What Makes This Book So Great, look for it. It will increase your TBR by leaps and bounds. She does a good job explaining why she likes various F & SF books, And then there is Among Others, where a girl is saved by books, both figuratively and literally, and it is largely a tribute to classic sci-fi.

Rachel wrote: " All the little touches, like the females actually not having claws and so forth was very clever ..."

One of the effects of this that Walton mentions is females, with fore-hands rather than claws, are able to write (thus relegating them to the traditional female role of secretaries ?)

Walton doesn't discuss other aspects of nascent industrialization. There are steam engines for long travel, "carriages" (more like open wagons, I think) for shorter trips, and weapons, including canons, though we only hear of the latter (Penn opines claw & flame don't get anywhere against the Yarge's cannons, and the Conquest had only ended when dragons got cannon, too.)

Walton doesn't deal with the creation of any of those things, but I would think in the crafting for cannon or steam engines, the female's opposable thumb would be more serviceable than the claw. So, there ought to be lots of draconic Rosies the Riveters around.

Also it's really hard to envision a vehicle for a very large animal. Imagine something the size of a hippopotamus or elephant, and building a train to carry several dozen of them. You can't just increase the gauge of the rail line, for a number of technical reasons. There's an art to -not- going into too much detail.

I thought it was quite an amusing concept for a story and that it was done really well. Sometimes when contemporary writing tries to write in the older style it really jars, but I found that it worked quite well for this book!

One of my favourite elements was the dragon hats. It just cracked me up, picturing dragons wearing all these different styles of hats.

I found the end perhaps a shade too pat, or neat, but then again, I can't imagine Jane Austen's books without a happy ending, so that's fine with me!

Cat wrote: "One of my favourite elements was the dragon hats. It just cracked me up, picturing dragons wearing all these different styles of hats...."

I thought the lawyer swapping wigs depending on which role he was playing was hilarious.

I'm about a quarter of the way through. It's interesting but I'm not loving it.

Apparently Bon Agornin eating his siblings was against the rules.
They can eat their dead relatives and weak juveniles that probably won't survive and I assume they can kill rivals in a fair fight but family members are forbidden.

Cat wrote: "I found the end perhaps a shade too pat, or neat, but then again, I can't imagine Jane Austen's books without a happy ending, so that's fine with me! ..."

I thought the ending was waaay to tidy. (view spoiler)[ Bad guy Daverak gets his comeuppance, hard-working Sebeth turns out to be royal heir and filth rich, Avan gets the girl he was too status-concious to marry before, Selendra gets her Prince Charming, Haner gets a dowry, Penn's reputation is saved,... Good triumphs over evil. It's surprising in a story that up until then had been happy to kill off the supporting cast. And most are rewarded by chance / outside forces, not their own efforts. A sort of Deus-ex-Camran. (hide spoiler)] Maybe I didn't read enough Austen.

I think it goes along with the style it was written in, as a standalone I was happy to see all the threads resolved. Though I'm actually still a bit curious about how the Yarges fit into the big picture and how the two societies coexist. It was an extra piece of worldbuilding that wasn't really required for the story.

I figure the Yarges must be humans (or human-like) : one thing in particular I noted was how cooking meat was outlawed in dragon society because it’s what the filthy Yarges do.

G33z3r wrote: "I thought the ending was waaay to tidy. (view spoiler) Maybe I didn't read enough Austen...."

Yeh, that kind of tidy ending definitely happens a lot with Austen. Which can be kind of satisfying when you know the drill. And especially in a stand-alone.

Andrea wrote: " Though I'm actually still a bit curious about how the Yarges fit into the big picture and how the two societies coexist. It was an extra piece of worldbuilding that wasn't really required for the story. ..."

Yes, it did seem a bit odd. I definitely thought that they were humans. It felt like the author included them to be able to give the dragon society something to push against and develop itself, except that wasn't actually shown in the story. Except in throw away comments.

So I didn't see why we couldn't just have had a dragon society that has gotten to the point of wearing silly hats and steam engines without having it be because humans exist. I mean, I've already suspended my disbelief enough, I can definitely wrap my head around the development of dragon society.

The one thing I didn't like, oddly enough, is that female dragons are claw-less. I mean I know it's a lot better and allows for fine motor tasks such as writing, but it irritated me. You're a smart dragon, you can figure out pens appropriate for claws. Or simple - just dip your claw in ink! Dragons should have claws, that's all I'm saying.

But you couldn’t get that inherent sense of male superiority without differences in physical characteristics- I thought it was clever to make it a fact instead of a fiction as with humans

Cat wrote: " I definitely thought that they were humans. It felt like the author included them to be able to give the dragon society something to push against and develop itself, except that wasn't actually shown in the story. Except in throw away comments. ..."

In the final chapter, when a Yarge Ambassador appears at a dragon gala, in his dialog calls himself "I am M’haarg, the Jh’oarg Ambassador", suggesting "Yarge" is a draconic corruption of Jh'oarg. I keep thinking this must be some sort of little Easter Egg, that given the corrected spelling I should recognize its origin from some other tale. But I can't figure it out what. Anybody?

Rachel wrote: "But you couldn’t get that inherent sense of male superiority without differences in physical characteristics- I thought it was clever to make it a fact instead of a fiction as with humans"

Just as where she made losing your virginity obvious to everyone since your scales would go pink (males of course have no such problem). And it would take as little as a male pressing himself against you, the equivalent of merely being kissed. Taking the Victorian human obsession with female purity to an extreme.

G33z3r wrote: "suggesting "Yarge" is a draconic corruption of Jh'oarg"

And that line is followed by the Exalted thinking that the ambassador wasn't able to pronounce the name of his own species correctly :)

Read up to page 46 last night. Hmmm. Honestly so far I find it confusing and had to keep with. I thought it would be Young Adult genre and maybe that's why I am struggling with it. It's not my normal Dragon book; Eragon etc. But I will continue.

Keith (CHINNY) wrote: "Read up to page 46 last night. Hmmm. Honestly so far I find it confusing and had to keep with. I thought it would be Young Adult genre and maybe that's why I am struggling with it. It's not my norm..."

I wouldn't say it's part of the Young Adult genre and it's definitely not your usual fantasy with dragons book. It's written in a style that was popular in the 1800's so it can definitely be challenging if you haven't read something like that before. Good luck :)

I guess I just react when people assume dragons = middle grade/YA...I mean there are definitely dragon books for kids but just because dragons are in a book doesn't make it a kid's story. That's like assuming that fantasy as a whole is "for kids" because it's got imaginary stuff in it. I saw the same question asked on the actual Tooth and Claw book page. I had to agree with the person's reply that pointed out Watership Down isn't exactly a happy bunny book for kids either.

I agree with Cat, this is a pastiche of Victorian or Regency fiction. It's very clever, but if you don't usually read that type of book, you may not be impressed by that aspect.

I've got maybe 75 pages to go. It's slow going but I'm more into the story now. It'll be good practice when I eventually read Jane Austen.

G33z3r wrote:"I am M’haarg, the Jh’oarg Ambassador", suggesting "Yarge" is a draconic corruption of Jh'oarg. I keep thinking this must be some sort of little Easter Egg, that given the corrected spelling I should recognize its origin from some other tale. But I can't figure it out what. Anybody?
Reminded me of Dothraki.
I looked up Jh’oarg and got several variations on George.
And this from somebody's review of the book:
And, finally, near the end there's a throwaway that they call themselves the Jh'oarg. Finally, after staring at that for a while, I think maybe it's supposed to be how the dragons hear them saying "George", presumably as in "St. George". Otherwise I'm missing the point.

Book Nerd wrote: "G33z3r wrote:"I am M’haarg, the Jh’oarg Ambassador", suggesting "Yarge" is a draconic corruption of Jh'oarg. I keep thinking this must be some sort of little Easter Egg,...
I looked up Jh’oarg and got several variations on George."

OK, that's a good take, suggesting Dragons call humans "Georges", which is a bit of as take on Dickson's The Dragon and the George.

That leaves "M'haarg".

Yeah, that sure was a neat, tidy ending but I didn't mind.

I liked this little part addressing the reader:
"...and being gentle readers and not cruel and hungry readers who would visit a publisher's office with the intention of rending and eating an author who has displeased them"
I think we've all considered that a time or two.

Dragons of the Prime: Jo Walton

Blog post on Tor.com where Walton talks about her inspiration for the book and how she went about writing it. Also the book is free to download for a little bit longer on Tor.

Andrea wrote: "Dragons of the Prime: Jo Walton

Blog post on Tor.com where Walton talks about her inspiration for the book and how she went about writing it. Also the book is free to download for a little bit lon..."

Oooh, interesting! I did enjoy this book when we read it, and it's even more interesting now that I know the back ground. Actually, now I kinda want to re-read it. Thanks, Andrea!