The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of April 23rd – April 29th, we are reading chapters 15 and 16 of Caesar: Life of a Colossus by Adrian Goldsworthy.

The ninth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK NINE - April 23rd – April 29th -> 15. The Man and the Hour: Vercingetorix and the Great Revolt, 52 BC and 16. ‘All Gaul is Conquered’ (315 - 357)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off February 26th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Vicki

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Adrian Goldsworthy

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also, the citation thread: (for Unreasonable Men - look at examples)

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - Spoiler Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Link:

by Adrian Goldsworthy

Everyone, for the week of April 23rd – April 29th, we are reading Chapters 15 and 16.

The ninth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK NINE - April 23rd – April 29th -> 15. The Man and the Hour: Vercingetorix and the Great Revolt, 52 BC and 16. ‘All Gaul is Conquered’ (315 - 357)

Chapter Overview and Summary:

Chapter 15. The Man and the Hour: Vercingetorix and the Great Revolt, 52 BC


Siege of Avaricum

This chapter covers Vercingetorix’ combining of most of the Gallic tribes in an attempt to defeat the Romans and Caesar’s successful battle at Alesia.

Chapter 16. ‘All Gaul is Conquered’


Vercingetorix surrendering to Caesar

This chapter covers what was going on in Rome while Caesar was away, with Pompey being appointed sole consul, and the final mopping up of Gaul.

Vercingetorix

Discussion Topics for Chapter XV:

1. Why were the Gauls wanting to go to war with the Romans? It doesn’t seem like Roman rule was that onerous, except for forbidding tribes from attacking each other, which they seemed to like to do.

2. What do you think of about the sieges at Avaricum and Alesia? They seem to show both Caesar’s strategic genius and the engineering abilities of the legions.

Discussion Topics for Chapter XVI:

1. Do you think Pompey wanted to be named dictator, or was sole consul enough for his ego?

2. Do you think the Senate realized the danger of the legions giving loyalty to their commander rather than to the State?

There are links to some videos about Caesar and Gaul in the Glossary.

2. Do you think the Senate realized the danger of the legions giving loyalty to their commander rather than to the State?

Some of the senators seemed to know this, but not enough of them did.
____________

I am noticing a problem with the kindle version of the book. Goodreads has the page count at 593 and my kindle version is 632 pages. I guess I will be "finishing" the book before I am finished.

Vicki wrote: "1. Why were the Gauls wanting to go to war with the Romans? It doesn’t seem like Roman rule was that onerous, except for forbidding tribes from attacking each other, which they seemed to like to do."

We should not forget that the Roman conquest was bloody and ruthless. The populations of entire cities were sold as slaves, popular armies were obliterated and farms were destroyed leading to widespread famine and refugee populations. The Romans brought order and dismantled existing power structures and social norms. Of course terminating some of these, like human sacrifice and replacing justice by local potentates by a kind of rule of law, sound like great improvements. But they also introduced gladiatorial fights and law-based systems were non-Romans were second class. Caesar had no respect for local rulers, using them to serve his purpose and killing them when he had no need for them.

The benefits of Roman rule would take a generation or two to materialize. It is not surprising that they revolted. It is only Rome's constant military presence and clever diplomacy that prevented them.

Vicki wrote: "2. What do you think of about the sieges at Avaricum and Alesia? They seem to show both Caesar’s strategic genius and the engineering abilities of the legions..."

It was clear by now that they had superior engineering skills and that the legionnaires were superior in combat as long as discipline remained and the tactical disadvantage was not too large. For Alesia in particular, Caesar exploited this extremely well. When he heard about the reinforcements, he did not launch an all-out attack to defeat Vercingetorix before relief would arrive (too costly), neither did he flee the siege to avoid being surrounded (wasting time and losing prestige). He remained calm.

It must have been great to be among the tactical and strategic debates in his command tent. I have the impression that whatever they believed in terms of their cultural superiority, value of prophecies, power of ancestry and favor of the gods - when it came to battle strategy, the Romans were rational and pragmatic.

While I'm not really interested in reading about battles, I think the sieges of Avaricum and Alesia are really interesting. Years ago, back when the History Channel actually had shows about history, they had some really good depictions of these sieges. It's possible they are somewhere on YouTube. I do think the forced starvation of the non-combatants at Alesia was pretty horrible, with blame on both sides.

I'm still wondering what the Romans did with the Gaulish hostages. The book mentions numbers like 200 from some of the tribes. It does say they were with the baggage train, but how were they handled? They had to be fed and kept from running away.

Vicki wrote: "I'm still wondering what the Romans did with the Gaulish hostages. The book mentions numbers like 200 from some of the tribes. It does say they were with the baggage train, but how were they handle..."

The hostages were taken from defeated tribes as a guarantee for these tribes not to break their treaty with Caesar. They were usually taken from the more influential families. It is never mentioned, but I guess the Romans had a way to make sure they did get sufficient noble blood.

Hostages were only taken after the defeat of a tribe, so they were not like POWs and I don't think they walked around in chains. I guess that they actually had considerable freedom unless tensions with their tribes rose. They could serve as a source of intelligence for the Romans, perhaps some were even deployed as allied forces to support the legionnaires.

After their return to their families, their knowledge of Roman ways, would give them considerable benefits. The author says (p243) that Caesar never mentions what happens to hostages from rebelling tribes, but he assumes they are killed.

Of course, one famous hostage was Polybius, transported to Rome in 167 BC as a result of the Roman war against Perseus of Macedon. He lived for many years with Scipio Aemilianus and wrote his famous book The Histories about why Rome was so successful.

The thing that keeps occurring to me (Vicki msg 9 - feeding the hostages) is the numbers of fighters - more from the Gauls who I assume were semi conscripted - on both sides - one might not have thought that the Gauls would have been able to mobilize so many fighters so quickly nor accomplish the logistics necessary to keep them supplied in the field although the Gauls seem to have failed at this fairly quickly.
That Caesar could accomplish his logistic feats - before any mechanized transport for so many for so long is extremely impressive and I guess that James Mattis would like to have his skills on the Mattis staff today.
The other thing really illustrated to me in these chapters was the close involvement of Caesar in the organization and fighting and support of the soldiers. He seems to have been relatively fearless.
Also with all the turmoil in Rome still the army stayed in the field and Caesar away for nine years and still there was confidence that Rome would be there when they got back.

Interesting comment, Vincent. The "job" of generals in those days was so different from how it is now. They were very much closer to their men and often in the thick of the fighting, Caesar in particular.