Reading the Chunksters discussion

At this point in the plot don't you want to see the movie or live performance? What a gripping, heart-rending plot!

Book Seven: The Champmathieu Affair

In this section we see Madeleine really struggle with whether to turn himself in or not. He recognizes that much of the town's prosperity rests with him but he agonizes over letting a man take the fall for his crime. He burns all traces of his identity but finally decides to confess. Even though everyone at the trial had been convinced that they had identified the guilty party, were quick to forget all that Madeleine had ever done once he admitted his true identity as Jean Valjean. Champmathieu, who seems rather a dim-witted chat, doesn't even recognize the significance of what has occurred, merely noting that everyone seems crazy.

Book Eight: After-Effect

In the flurry of activity after Champmathieu is freed, Valjean rushes back to try to help Fantine. She mistakenly thinks he has gone to retrieve Cosette, and is in a state of supreme happiness until Javert appears to arrest Valjean. Javert refuses to agree to retrieve Cosette, and Fantine, rattled to the core by the circumstances with her beloved Madeleine and alarmed that her daughter is not already in the area, dies of shock. Valjean is imprisoned but promptly escapes, settling his financial affairs (leaving all to the poor) and heading to Paris.

Do you think Jean Valjean make the right decision to turn himself in? Saved one man at the expense of many? What did you think of the truthful Sister's decision to lie to protect him?

What did you think of the 'justice system' as portrayed by the trial in Arras?

Also, thoughts on how everyone turned their backs on Madeleine so quickly - did you find this suprising? I certainly thought that more individuals would have defended him besides the sisters - if only out of selfish motives in that he perpetuated their prosperity.

Dianne wrote: "Do you think Jean Valjean make the right decision to turn himself in? Saved one man at the expense of many? What did you think of the truthful Sister's decision to lie to protect him?"

I think Hugo does a brilliant job of portraying JV's agonising, the way he goes back and forth, thinks he has a fated reprieve, then realises, after all, that he doesn't. It gives him moral stature as there are certainly arguments for why he should not hand himself in, as you say, Dianne (the one man vs. many) but ultimately he knows what is right and we surely respect him for that, even while my heart sank at the idea of him going back to prison.

That's reiterated when Sister Simplice lies for him - surely she wouldn't if he'd been the sort of man to escape through someone else's pain? And that moment when his hair turns white overnight from the stress - sob!

Dianne wrote: "What did you think of the 'justice system' as portrayed by the trial in Arras?"

Some great quotes from JV that still feed into modern debates: 'It is gaol that makes the gaolbird... before going to prison I was a peasant with very little intelligence, almost an idiot. It was prison which changed me. I had been stupid but I grew malignant... Goodness and compassion saved me after brutality had come near to destroying me.'

Also the slightly implausible but crucial speech of Champmathieu when he's pressured under interrogation: 'That's what I was trying to say, only I couldn't find the words. I'm one of those that don't eat every day... I don't know how to say things, I never had any schooling, I'm one of the poor.'

This whole episode is like a longer version of JV lifting the cart off the trapped man: he has a choice to do something good that will condemn himself, or simply walk away - he goes for the hard decision both times.

Unfortunately the moment when Fantine expires made me giggle! All very fraught but somehow Hugo went that step too far for me...

I think JV had to give himself in. He knew that he had suffered the injustice of a long prison sentence for a minor offence of stealing bread. He couldn’t see another man imprisoned for a long time for something he didn’t do. I think he will have always had a plan but he must have hoped he would have been able to get to Cosette before Javert caught up with him.

I wondered about the relationship between JV and Fantine. Does he want to help her because he felt guilty she lost her job? Does he have any romantic feelings towards her? He seems very willing to risk a lot for her.

Fantine’s death was perhaps a little overdramatic! I was more sad when at the end of the chapter Hugo mentions she was buried in an unmarked grave. It seems such a sad end for somebody who could have had promise.

Does anybody else think Javert could have ignored the order to arrest JV? I was really hoping he would.

Falling a bit behind but will catch up soon.

I thought JV's internal conflict/dialog over turning himself in was brilliant writing, something most of us can relate to having experienced the same inner turmoil in our lives, although not necessarily over an issue with the same devastating and bleak consequences. That it ran on for pages emphasized how all consuming such inner conflicts can be. I hope and trust that these pages haven't been removed from abridged versions.

I thought sister Simplice was a play on sister Simplistic. She's never told a lie, not even a white one. That's completely unrealistic, too simplistic, and without moral agency -- no thought as to the damage truth can cause . . . until she lies for him. His life is now such a force for good that this sister who has never lied makes a moral decision to lie.

Of course, I have no idea if her name comes anywhere near meaning simplistic in French, but that was my reaction to her character.

Simplice in French also means, more positively, 'unaffected', or with the ability to cut through to the crux of a matter.

For me, what's enacted here is the rigid and inhumane legalism of Javert who follows the letter of the law, and the deeper, more human and compassionate understanding of Sister Simplice who bears witness to a deeper truth about the character of JV.

So, JV's good works and moral character "affected" sister Simplice? I like that too.

Great point. Sister Simplice represents the opposite of Javert

Heather wrote: "I wondered about the relationship between JV and Fantine. Does he want to help her because he felt guilty she lost her job? Does he have any romantic feelings towards her?"

Yes, I've always been vaguely uncomfortable about this relationship but I think that's due to our modern cynicism and awareness of sexualised power and authority - I don't think Hugo intended that at all.

If anything, JV feels paternal towards Fantine, I think. He sees her as unfairly disadvantaged (in modern parlance) and takes on the role that Myriel played for him - paying it forward, as it were.

Heather wrote: "Does anybody else think Javert could have ignored the order to arrest JV? I was really hoping he would."

Haha, then we'd have had no story. I think, given Javert's psychological make-up and almost pathological adherence to 'rules and regulations', it simply wouldn't be possible for him to let JV or anyone else go.

Btw, anyone else struck by the tonal similarities in the names Jean Valjean and Javert? Those unusual Js and Vs.

Ah. no, I hadn't. Nice catch about tonal similarities.

What did you think of JV taking a bite of bread, then placing it down on the table not to touch again? The bread tastes bitter he says to himself and then asks a fellow diner why, but the man does not respond because he speaks German, not French.

That caught my attention. It just comes out of left field and must mean more than just bitter bread.

RC- that’s a good point. I hadn’t thought about the relationship being anything other than sexualised whereas I think you are right, he is taking the role of a father figure.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "What did you think of JV taking a bite of bread, then placing it down on the table not to touch again? The bread tastes bitter he says to himself and then asks a fellow diner why, but the man does ..."

I read this as a way of giving us indirect insight into JV's state of emotions - first that he's not hungry since he notes that he missed his breakfast, then when he does eat, all he can taste is bitterness.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "I thought sister Simplice was a play on sister Simplistic. She's never told a lie, not even a white one. That's completely unrealistic, too simplistic, and without moral agency -- no thought as to ..."

Sister Simplice in her honesty is like Jalvert's attitude for authority and the law - unrelenting.

I think she lied to tell Valjean to not allow himself to be captured because she knew what would happen if he was exposed. She knew people would forget all the good Madeleine had done, and the town would unravel. To her, the loss of F. Madeleine was a greater loss than that of another man. I do not think she lied for Madeleine's sake, but for the greater good.

I think Fantine's missing child affected Valjean. He had, before he was imprisoned, a sister and many nieces and nephews. Hugo discussed at length the damage done to Valjean when his family disappeared from his life. Cossette is all the family Fantine had. Compassion and his efforts to do good influenced his behavior toward her.

BTW, the V's and J's have always left me confused. I get Valjean and Javert mixed up. But now that Roman mentioned the similar tonalities, I wonder if Hugo intended this in naming the main characters. They are, after all, two side of the same coin: the law.

Hummingbirder wrote: "I think she lied to tell Valjean to not allow himself to be captured because she knew what would happen if he was exposed. She knew people would forget all the good Madeleine had done, and the town would unravel...."

I can't agree. The people have already forgotten the good he has done, and the factory is already closed, and JV must leave to never return. She lied either because of JV's moral force, or because lying was the only way for Cosette to be rescued and to end the torture to Fantine's soul, or both.

In the last part two passages caught my eye.

Well, I did have my suspicions! That man was too good to be true, too perfect, too sickly sweet. He refused the cross, he handed out sous to all the little beggars he met. I always thought there was something bad at the bottom of all that.

I think Hugo is criticizing, or pointing out, the populace's complicity in their own condition. Look how quickly they turn on JV, choosing to forget all the good he has done. Instead of directing anger and hostility at the system, they quickly turn on him and support the system. Do they even realize how much worse their lives will be now? Perhaps Hugo was trying to raise awareness.

And then this about sister Simplice after she lies:

Oh, holy child! You are no longer of this world—have not been for many years now; you have caught up with your virgin sisters and your angel brothers in the light; may these lies be chalked up to you in paradise!

For the first time sister Simplice acts as a moral agent regarding lying, abandoning the truth to do a greater good. Lying can be a slippery slope, but intentions matter, and there's no escaping that.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Hummingbirder wrote: "I think she lied to tell Valjean to not allow himself to be captured because she knew what would happen if he was exposed. She knew people would forget all the good Madeleine ..."

I'm so far ahead I'd forgotten he was already exposed. I still think she did it for the greater good, though.

I have to agree with others here that the writing of Valjean's internal struggle of whether he should turn himself in or not was brilliant. He was thinking of himself yes, but he was also thinking of the town, and Fantine. Even after he decided to go to Arras, on the way there he is still struggling with whether he's doing the right thing or not. He knows what it's like to rot in prison, and I think he just couldn't let an innocent man take the fall for him, even though it would forever bury Jean Valjean in connection to him.

I never thought of Valjean's relationship with Fantine as a sexual one at all. She's pretty sick when he helps her after Javert brought her back to be arrested. I think he felt bad for her, and maybe even partly responsible for the situation she was in. I think he wants to help her because they all know she's dying. So I think he's trying to help her so she can see her child before she dies. Unfortunately, it doesn't work out that way.

Great discussion everyone! This book is one of the best for 2018 ^.^

Renee, I loved that tension he's fighting within himself. It's a real inner conflict. It reminds me of the earlier chapters where he's a prisoner and was fighting with how society treated him. Now he has a chance to do the right thing and his mind's calculating things differently.

I just loved book 7! Will he or wont he? Good over evil? Then there were so many times he could have changed his mind and turned back but didn't. It kept me captivated! I am not so sure that Sister Simplice would have lied so readily even for Madeleine/VJ given it was her life practice not to lie, ever.

I think the internal struggle of the "for the greater good" (which in this case is also for his own good) vs. "for the good of one" is such a key to this story. His whole life from the time of the theft has been about punishment for one small thing and he knows the value of the lifting or crushing of one man's life.... and despite the wretchedness of that one man's life vs. the whole town he's enriched, he knows he cannot be who he wants to be if he allows another man to suffer in his place. It would be contrary to everything he's changed about his entire character.

Alana wrote: "he knows he cannot be who he wants to be if he allows another man to suffer in his place. ..."

Excellent point, Alana.

He makes a choice, the essence of freedom and identity.

Hummingbirder wrote: "Sister Simplice in her honesty is like Javert's attitude for authority and the law - unrelenting. ..."

Javert, to me, is the physical embodiment of the "zero tolerance" rule. An infraction is an infraction--there is no room for extenuating circumstances, negotiation, or compassion. "We found a knife in your truck--it doesn't matter that you're a straight-A honor student and the knife in question is a butter knife that fell out in the bed of the truck from when you helped your grandparents move." The kid still gets suspended. Javert allows nothing like facts, truth, or common sense to influence his course of action. If taking Valjean into custody would cause the death of everyone in that town, I believe he would still do it. His moral code is set in iron and leaves no room for humanity.

Sister Simplice has equally strong definitions of right and wrong, but her judgment is tempered by mercy. She is able to evaluate the situation and assess the justice of various scenarios. Although Valjean is technically guilty, when everything is taken into consideration, she realizes that telling the truth and betraying him would be a greater injustice than protecting him. Although she technically commits the sin of lying, she actually displays the characteristic that is the lodestone of Christianity--compassion.

Cindy wrote: "Hummingbirder wrote: "Sister Simplice in her honesty is like Javert's attitude for authority and the law - unrelenting. ..."

Javert, to me, is the physical embodiment of the "zero tolerance" rule...."

I agree with everything you said about Javert Cindy. He is absolutely zero tolerance since he even wanted himself to be punished for reporting to his superiors that Monsieur Madeline was Valjean before finding the "real Valjean". He couldn't stand that he wouldn't be punished for this. He is a man who will absolutely follow any law, and not even think twice about the consequences because the law must be followed.

I had only ever seen the movie with Hugh Jackman, and Russell Crowe. You really don't see much of Javert and his ways of thinking although it's hinted at in a few scenes. Reading the book has given a whole new perspective of his character that you don't see in the show or movie.