Black Coffee discussion

Hey everyone! Thank you to those who voted for the June 2018 group read. The vote was pretty split, but The Autobiography of Malcolm X had the most number of votes. We will be starting this soon so get your books! If you can't find a copy at your local library, the kindle version is available for $8 on amazon; you can find used copies starting at $6; a new paperback is $7.

ONE OF TIME’S TEN MOST IMPORTANT NONFICTION BOOKS OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY

“The most important book I’ll ever read, it changed the way I thought, it changed the way I acted. It has given me courage I didn’t know I had inside me. I’m one of hundreds of thousands whose lives were changed for the better.”—Spike Lee

“Malcolm X’s autobiography seemed to offer something different. His repeated acts of self-creation spoke to me; the blunt poetry of his words, his unadorned insistence on respect, promised a new and uncompromising order, martial in its discipline, forged through sheer force of will.”—Barack Obama, Dreams from My Father

Who will be joining us for this read?

If you have already read this book, please join us for the discussion!!!

I'm in. I already own a copy.

Aaaaaah, I've been wanting to read this forever!

Anastasia wrote: "Aaaaaah, I've been wanting to read this forever!"

Me too! Got my book today. Who else is joining us for the read and discussion?

Leona wrote: "...If you have already read this book, please join us for the discussion!!!"

I'll try to pop in.

I think this book should be read, and that it should be read critically. Here's my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Phil wrote: "I think this book should be read, and that it should be read critically. Here's my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."

ok, like i don't read critically, like, ever unless forced to by a school assignment. but i checked out your thoughts/review. amazingly enough i figured out most of what you pointed out by just reading it to enjoy. and that was when i in high school.

now explain what you meant by this

This book was thought-provoking. I'm glad I read it for the sake of my cultural knowledge, but it is too offensive for me to approve of it.

did you not enjoy it? ok, i get that. say that. the 2 stars is explained.

approve is a weird word for a book. like who are you giving permission to? yourself?

offensive? like you were personally offended? or Malcolm just said offensive things? which yes, he did a lot. but you actually point out that the doctrine of the Nation of Islam is highly offensive with the whole ALL white people are the devil theology.

It is important to note that this portion of the book was composed while Malcolm X was still a member of the Nation of Islam, and his attitudes were at the height of their viciousness.

you also point out how Malcolm realized the Nation of Islam had twisted the religion of Islam and he changed his thinking in some areas.

This is the portion of the book that many readers find the most redeeming. Here's how to read it:
1. Look for the attitudes that stay the same and the attitudes that change. Not enough of them change, in my opinion.
2. Does Malcolm X have enough distance from these events to be objective about them? There is a breathless awe-struck quality to this section that differs from the earlier portions of the book.
3. What, specifically, is Malcolm X's legacy? To my observation, his attitudes were shifting so quickly and his interview style was so aggressive that it's hard to know what the man really stood for at the end of his life.

granted a lot of his ways of thinking would still be considered offensive in today's day and age but not back then. Men did (many still do) think women should be subservient to men. Systematic racism has effected EVERY aspect of life for black men in the USA. Malcolm obviously was still prejudiced as were many people in the 1960's and 1970's. but just like many folks who grew up in that time period changed their ways and became less prejudice of other races and classes, Malcolm might have done the same.

It seems like you are judging Malcolm and his attitudes like he is alive today. Just like movies and television from the past have offensive caricatures and language in them books do as well. I would think if you are reading a book critically you would take that into account. i mean, i did and i was a teenager just reading for fun. and that was back in the 90's before we became so politically correct in the USA.

Thanks for all the thought you put into your response, Kay Dee.

approve is a weird word for a book. like who are you giving permission to? yourself?

I am a Middle School reading teacher, so I tend to read books with classroom use in mind. A lot of my GR friends are teachers, children's librarians, colleagues, and former students, so they tend to read my comments in that light.

It seems like you are judging Malcolm and his attitudes like he is alive today.

Yes, I tend to do that. As a teacher, an offensive book is less useful to me even if its attitudes were acceptable at the time it was written. A good example is The Sign of the Beaver, which won the Newbery award in its day, but is now considered racist.

As a reader, I also tend to not give the past a lot of slack. The more I learn about American history, the more I discover that mistakes were not inevitable. There were always people who knew better and spoke up, but were ignored. Even though Malcolm X's attitudes were shaped by his experiences and the time he lived in, I don't give him a free pass.

That's not to say that the book cannot be taught. There are passages that I would be willing to use with my students- specifically some of the description of his childhood and of learning to read, some of which are quoted in my review.

Phil wrote: "Thanks for all the thought you put into your response, Kay Dee.

approve is a weird word for a book. like who are you giving permission to? yourself?

I am a Middle School reading teacher, so I ten..."

hmm yeah your review is still weird. this is not a group of teachers or young kids. yet you suggested we read the book critically and then gave your review link to see exactly what you meant by that. knowing this you should have prefaced it but you didn't.

i agree with not giving Malcolm a free pass but it is a rare person who is not influenced by their culture. and it is also a rare person who doesn't change. when Malcolm realized he was wrong about different people groups he changed, just like society. and just like society it doesn't happen overnight but it takes years. i think it really only happens, deep down inside, when we personally know somebody that can show us that different is not necessarily a bad thing.

you come off to me as so arrogant to think that you in today's day and age can judge people from the past. i used to be that arrogant. thinking "oh if i was a slave i would have fought." or "i could never have just let them spit on me at a lunch counter."

but i was taught to look people in the eye when i talked to them. i was told over and over how pretty i was by my parents (mother and father). i had both my parents growing up. things didn't get rocky in their marriage until i was in HS. i excelled in school; i loved it. i cannot remember a time when i couldn't read. i was raised and still am a Christian. and that's just a tiny part of the things that influence my attitude.

you sound so sure you would have been marching alongside the good folks and not just sitting on the sidelines being quiet whenever race was brought up. heck, depending on how you were raised you might have been on the sidelines spitting and throwing things.

so yes there were people who chose differently or we wouldn't be having this conversation but the majority did not. and a LOT of it was because of how they were raised, what was socially and culturally acceptable at the time.

the more i learn about the past the less i am sure of what i would have done in their shoes. trust, one day people will look back on us, shake their heads, and say "how could they think this was ok?!"

Hey everyone! Thanks for the amazing participation! I'm excited that this book has generated so much discussion. Until the group has officially read the book, if we could please refrain from posting, linking to, or discussing our impressions of the work in its entirety. This week and next we will be reading and discussing the first 9 chapters of the book which chronicle his youth; this is to give those who are reading it for the first time an opportunity to discuss it with those who have already read it. We will discuss chapters 10 to 16, recounting his time in prison, during week 3. And we'll read and discuss his trip to Mecca and the final chapters of the book, including the epilogue, in week 4, at which time you can post your impressions of the book in its entirety.

This week and next we are reading the first 9 chapters of the book, chronicling his youth and adolescence. Please join us for this read and/or discussion and feel free to post your impressions of this part of the book! And feel free to discuss this part of his life in the context of his broader life and legacy.

I'm glad to see people are already eager to discuss the book, makes me excited to read it.

I would just remind everyone to please, as we continue in this discussion, talk to your fellow discussion members with respect and class.

Thank you.

Not at all! Feel free to join in whenever you wish! Welcome to the group! We're very excited to have you join in. This week and next we are discussing the first 9 chapters of the book, so I request that we limit the discussion to that part of the book for now (to give those who are reading the book for the first time the opportunity to discuss the book with those who have already read it).

Cool! Thanks. This will be my first time reading the book too. I've always wanted to but never got around to it. My hopes are that the group will help me commit to it and gain more insight.

-cheers!

Perhaps it's fair for me to pass on a quote from my summary/review of Cornel West's Race Matters, since he had a lot to say about Malcolm X, and it may be relevant to the perspective we take on the evolution of Malcolm's religion and philosophy. I confess I would have to go back and read both books again to judge whether my summary was on point, but this is what I remember taking away from it (references to "the author" are to Cornel West, not to Malcolm or Alex Haley):

-There's also a fair amount about Malcolm X. The author saw a lot of unfulfilled potential in Malcolm X, whose strong expression of rage was focused on a psychological transformation in black people, but who tragically could not live long enough to mature and examine the implications of his approach. The author saw Malcolm X as starting to transcend national boundaries, and overcoming some of the unfortunate tendency of Nation of Islam to respond to white-nationalist power by adopting the same underlying formula i.e., by focusing too much on white power, it ironically kept white culture as the dominant force and turned black nationalism into a reactionary movement. The author believed Malcolm would have gone beyond this in promoting black pride on its own terms, speaking out with appropriate rage to white abuses, but not allowing white culture to define the movement. He also commented on the fact that, still young, Malcolm in his more orthodox Muslim phase, could not yet transcend racial reasoning enough to be able to see the broader social justice issues, i.e., he could not criticize the patriarchal oppression of women and the anti-democratic culture of Arabia, while he experienced the positive humanizing experience of being accepted as a black man.

Very cogent synopsis and I would have to say I agree.

I’m reading this very slowly at the moment (on chapter 3) and thought I’d share these articles:

Why Malcolm X is being written out of history
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/02/27/i-...

On Louise Little, the Mother of Malcolm X
https://www.aaihs.org/on-louise-littl...

Sofia wrote: "I’m reading this very slowly at the moment (on chapter 3) and thought I’d share these articles:

Why Malcolm X is being written out of history
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/02/27/i-...-..."

These are great, sofia. Thanks for sharing them.

You're welcome, Carol. I found the bit about the conk hairstyle and white standards of beauty so fascinating. Having recently reread Americanah I couldn't help but compare Ifemelu and Malcolm X's experiences of hair straightening.

I also loved the history of Harlem at the end of the Harlemite chapter. I would love to read more about the history of Black migration from south to north. Has anyone read The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration? It's been on my TBR for ages. Would make for an interesting group read.

Zadignose - Thank you so much for your summary of Cornel West's summary of Malcolm X. West's argument helped me navigate the anti-women sentiments/ideas in this book.

I thought I'd share this playlist: Music from The Autobiography of Malcolm X as told to Alex Haley

Sofia wrote: "I thought I'd share this playlist: Music from The Autobiography of Malcolm X as told to Alex Haley"

Wow! This is perfect. Thank you Sofia! Every time Malcolm would mention an artist in the story, I would stop reading to look them up. I'm glad that someone put this playlist together and you have shared it here. It truly helps with understanding the atmosphere and setting.

Also, I have The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration on a TBR list. I agree that it would be excellent if it became a group read in the future.

-cheers

i am reading it slowly as well. i read it so much faster when i was in middle school. that or i just didn't have any other distractions that summer.

Sofia wrote: "I thought I'd share this playlist: Music from The Autobiography of Malcolm X as told to Alex Haley"

that is neat! thanks for sharing.

Sofia wrote: "I thought I'd share this playlist: Music from The Autobiography of Malcolm X as told to Alex Haley"

This is priceless! Thanks.

Sofia wrote: "I’m reading this very slowly at the moment (on chapter 3) and thought I’d share these articles:

On Louise Little, the Mother of Malcolm X
https://www.aaihs.org/on-louise-littl......"

Wow. so interesting! thanks for sharing.

What most intrigued me was her resilience. She was institutionalized at the Kalamazoo Mental Hospital from 1939 through 1963. But, she lived almost 30 more years after her family got her out of that hospital. Her time in that hospital can be viewed as a form of incarceration because the state targeted her because she was proud, she was independent, she owned her own land, and she refused to bow down to white supremacy and patriarchy. For these reasons, she was placed in that hospital, her land was taken away from her, and her children were put in foster homes. Despite being hospitalized for 25 years, she survived. She came out and, in her final years, she reconnected with family. She never forgot who she was and she remained strong.

You're welcome! I've been listening to the playlist while reading – great music.

Driemy, same here. Discovered so many great forgotten artists through this book.

Kay Dee, that's the bit that caught my attention too. How horrible. And this quote from the autobiography:

"I truly believe that if ever a state social agency destroyed a family, it destroyed ours. We wanted and tried to stay together. Our home didn't have to be destroyed. But the Welfare, the courts, and their doctor, gave us the one-two-three punch. And ours was not the only case of this kind."

Following on from Zadignose's comment, I wanted to share this section from Ta Nehisi Coates' article The Legacy of Malcolm X:

And then I thought about the luxuries that I, and black people writ large, today enjoy. In his Autobiography, Malcolm harks back to his time in middle school, when he was one of the top students in his school and made the mistake of telling his teacher he wanted to be a lawyer. “That’s no realistic goal for a nigger,” Malcolm’s teacher told him. Thinking back on that, Malcolm says,

"My greatest lack has been, I believe, that I don’t have the kind of academic education I wish I had been able to get … I do believe that I might have made a good lawyer."

What animated Malcolm’s rage was that for all his intellect, and all his ability, and all his reinventions, as a black man in America, he found his ambitions ultimately capped. The right of self-creation had its limits then. But not anymore. Obama became a lawyer, and created himself as president, out of a single-parent home and illicit drug use.

And so it is for the more modest of us. I am, at my heart, a college dropout, twice kicked out of high school. Born out of wedlock, I, in turn, had my own son out of wedlock. But my parents do not find me blasphemous, and my mother is the first image of beauty I ever knew. Now no one questions my dark partner’s right to her natural hair. No one questions our right to self-creation. It takes a particular arrogance to fail to honor that, and instead to hold, as his most pertinent feature, the prejudices of a man whose earliest memories were of being terrorized by white supremacists, whose ambitions were dashed by actual racists, who was called “nigger” as a child so often that he thought it was his name.

The last paragraph broke my heart.

"I truly believe that if ever a state social agency destroyed a family, it destroyed ours. We wanted and tried to stay together. Our home didn't have to be destroyed. But the Welfare, the courts, and their doctor, gave us the one-two-three punch. And ours was not the only case of this kind."

my Granny had lots of siblings but when her mom died, they were farmed out to strangers and she never saw them again. that was in the 1940's. so sad it's still happening. foster care constantly separates siblings cuz few will take all the children, esp the older ones.

Sofia wrote: "Following on from Zadignose's comment, I wanted to share this section from Ta Nehisi Coates' article The Legacy of Malcolm X:

And then I thought about the luxuries that I, and black people writ la..."

Thank you for that post! But I take issue with many of Ta-Nehisi Coates points about the "luxuries" that Black people "today enjoy." I would be surprised if Malcolm X wasn't disappointed in the progress America has made since his passing. Sure, a lot of explicit racism has been driven underground, but implicit racism continues to persist.

Teachers like the one Malcolm X had are still around. As this incident which occurred in January of this year,
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/us..., this incident which occurred in May of this year, http://www.newsweek.com/kansas-teache..., or a similar incident which occurred in November of last year demonstrate. https://abcnews.go.com/US/people-shot...

As for the comment, "now no one questions my dark partner’s right to her natural hair."
Well, except (racist) people still very much do question it. Lest we forget when this happened in Ohio in 2013, https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...
or when this happened in the Bahamas in 2016: https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trendi...

Leona wrote: "I disagree; people of color in this country still have to work twice as hard and be twice as talented to achieve half as much as their White counterparts."

true. we have less of the kind treatment Malcom endured and more of the kind Ta-Nehisi experiences.

But both experiences still happen and are not universal across the nation for every person of color. Depending on where they live, their income, how light or dark they are, education level, etc depends on which experience a POC will have. and we cannot even say that there is majority of the good over the bad ... not yet.

I would like to share the following article, written by Mychal Denzel Smith, New York Times-bestselling author of Invisible Man, Got the Whole World Watching: A Young Black Man's Education, which makes a reference to Coates's writing.

Chait previously wrote, with a note of disappointment, “I have never previously detected this level of pessimism in Coates’s thinking before.” He isn’t alone. Andrew Sullivan and quite a few of his readers detect a “profound gloom” in Coates’s writing as of late, a change, they say, from just a few years ago.

Smith goes on to add:

Emancipation was supposed to be enough. “Separate but equal” was supposed to be enough. Brown v. Board of Education was supposed to be enough. The Civil Rights/Voting Acts were supposed to be enough. Affirmative action was supposed to be enough. A black president is supposed to be enough. Yet, here we are, facing mass incarceration, food insecurity, chronic unemployment, the erosion of the social safety net, income inequality, housing discrimination, police brutality and the seemingly unending deaths of our young people at the hands of police and armed vigilantes. Pardon the “profound gloom.”

What some call depression or pessimism, I would call impatience and rage. Our impatience and rage is what has produced progress. That we are still impatient and angry reflects not black people’s failing but how far America still has to go.

Which itself reminds me of an anecdote from the first chapter of Malcolm X's autobiography:

...I would cry out and make a fuss until I got what I wanted. I remember well how my mother asked me why I couldn't be a nice boy like Wilfred; but I would think to myself that Wilfred, for being so nice and quiet, often stayed hungry. So early in life, I had learned that if you want something, you had better make some noise.

capsaicine wrote: "I would like to share the following article, written by Mychal Denzel Smith, New York Times-bestselling author of [book:Invisible Man, Got the Whole World Watching: A Young Black Man's Education|39..."I highlighted this, too! Malcolm X certainly applied this lesson to his life. I'm only on page 62 but I can already see what a force of nature he would become.

On page 62, I've read about Malcolm X's childhood and how the white welfare workers seemed not even to view him and his siblings and mother as people, but objects, and how they destroyed his family--so heartbreaking, especially as we see children of color being torn from their parents at our borders today. I felt anguish to read of his having to leave his brothers and sisters behind and of his mothers' commitment to a mental institution--not surprising, given how crazy-making they were, pitting the children against each other and against their mother. The irony is, they probably thought they were "doing good." This is white patriarchy in action.

When he moves to Boston, I feel his joy at being with other black people at last. I also feel his pain when he "conks" his hair. I had read about this process when researching Josephine Baker, but not in such graphic detail.

"I had joined that multitude of Negro men and women in America who are brainwashed into believing that the black people are "inferior"--and white people "superior"--that they will even violate and mutilate their God-given bodies to try to look "pretty" by white standards."

And the same is true for skin color--white culture has people around the world competing for who can have the lightest skin. Even our tropes around good and evil have designated "white" as representing goodness, purity, and beauty and "black" as representing evil and sin.

Also, as a feminist, I see that women of all races and most cultures do this, as well--subject our bodies to torturous acts and devices including high-heeled shoes, waxing, plastic surgery, Botox injections and more just to pander to the male gaze. Oppression takes many forms, but hegemony is among the most insidious.

Light skin being thought of as superior was around in many cultures years BEFORE eruopeans started travelling. A lot had to do with the fact rich or educated folks didn't work outside. It was a class thing before it became a race thing.

Kay Dee wrote: "Light skin being thought of as superior was around in many cultures years BEFORE eruopeans started travelling. A lot had to do with the fact rich or educated folks didn't work outside. It was a cla..."

You’re so right. Japan is a great example of a country where pale skin is highly valued for indicating that one is wealthy and educated and need not work outside. It’s a marker of class.

Man, I wish brother Malcolm was alive today. We need him more now than ever.

Did anyone else find it laughable how he tried to downplay how much he loved sister Betty?

Erin wrote: "Man, I wish brother Malcolm was alive today. We need him more now than ever.

Did anyone else find it laughable how he tried to downplay how much he loved sister Betty?"

I haven't gotten to the part about Betty yet, but I agree, we do need Malcolm.

I think we'll be extending this read into July because there's just....a lot.

Slowly working my way through it. I think the first set of chapters is good for giving us an understanding of why he arrived at where he did. What happened to his family was so messed up, I think he was understandably angry about it. And about similar and worse things that happened to people of his ethnicity. Who wouldn't be?

Thank you! I was going to try to binge read the rest today.

This is one of the best books I’ve read in ages (I’m only halfway through at the moment – trying to make this last as long as possible). Jesmyn Ward’s Men We Reaped was another book that moved me as much as this one.

I wish I had checked in here more often. I would have loved to have been a part of this discussion. This book is next on my reading list thanks to all of your comments.

Susan wrote: "I wish I had checked in here more often. I would have loved to have been a part of this discussion. This book is next on my reading list thanks to all of your comments."

The discussion is still going on :) We tend to be pretty flexible with discussions so if you wish to read it at a later time and comment I'm sure you will get replies.

Does anyone feel like the white women he was exposed to when he was younger were fetishizing black men? That's how it's coming off to me at least.

Don't white people usually fetishize black people?

Erin wrote: "Don't white people usually fetishize black people?"

was that a serious question? asking for a friend.

Anastasia wrote: "Does anyone feel like the white women he was exposed to when he was younger were fetishizing black men? That's how it's coming off to me at least."

Definitely. Sophia used Malcolm to fuel her rebellion through the taboo act of interracial sex. Malcom used her too, as a status symbol, manipulating her as a tool for temporary resources and money. He didn't respect her anymore than she respected him. They merely used each other.

Has anyone seen the movie? I thought it was amazing, and the scene in the car near the end with Sam Cooke’s A change is going to come playing in the background ... brilliant stuff!

Anastasia wrote: "Susan wrote: "I wish I had checked in here more often. I would have loved to have been a part of this discussion. This book is next on my reading list thanks to all of your comments."

The discussi..."

Thanks. I bought the book the other day and am a third through. While I truly dislike reading autobiographies, I'm glad I picked this one up. Will continue to read everyone's insights along the read.

I'm on page 390 of 466 of The Autobiography of: This isn't a quick read, nor a comfortable one. Malcolm X challenges what was always thought of as the "right" way to integrate, understand, and end racism. I keep hoping for a happy ending, but I know that isn't going to happen since we're living 50 years after his life with no discernible changes.

Susan wrote: "I'm on page 390 of 466 of The Autobiography of: This isn't a quick read, nor a comfortable one. Malcolm X challenges what was always thought of as the "right" way to integrate, understand, and end ..."

Very true. I'm finding myself just blown away. I knew some of the history he mentions but not all of it. Very interesting.