The Old Curiosity Club discussion

NN Chapter 6

Dear Curiosities

Here we are with Nicholas Nickleby and here I am in my new home in Toronto. While both Nicholas and myself have been on the move, I am happy to report - with apologies to our friend Nicholas - that our transition went smoother than his appears to have been progressing. Here in Canada, students went back to school on September 4th. I hope that none of these students encounter a Mr Squeers in their classroom. Before we get to Dotheboys Hall, however, we have chapter six which I found strange, almost Pickwickian in flavour, it that it contains two tales that seem to be out of place within the context of the surrounding text.

Both tales are told after the travellers get their wits about them after the coach accident and find themselves in the safety of a nearby public-house. Squeers was only slightly bumped about, and as we watch his reactions and comments we see further proof of his insincerity. His proclamation of interest in his students rings hollow. Nicholas, embarrassed, is forced to hand our Squeers’s business cards to their fellow travellers. A good-humoured gentleman suggests that to pass the time before a replacement coach arrives the travellers might sing a song or tell a story. The first tale is titled “The Five Sisters of York.”

Thoughts

Dickens continues to build the characters of Squeers and Nicholas. What earlier information about them has been reinforced and what new indications of character can be observed in this chapter?

The idea of people telling tales to others in order to pass the time and amuse each other is an old tradition. For instance, such a technique can be seen in The Canterbury Tales. What other works of literature can you recall that has employed this literary technique? Do you enjoy this style of plot device?



“The Five Sisters of York” has a pastoral setting and feel. It is set in the ancient city of York where there lived five maiden sisters. All the sisters were beautiful, but Alice, the youngest sister, was the most beautiful of all. The sisters were pious in nature, and lived in Saint Mary’s Abbey where they paid yearly dues. The chief joy of the five sisters is to create wonderful embroidery works. One day a monk tells the sisters, not for the first time, that they are “wasting the precious hours on ... vain trifling” and wonders if there is not a better way for them to utilize their time. Indeed, the monk suggests they should take the “veil, daughters, the veil!” The sisters decline, wishing rather to “die with life about us.” The holy man doesn’t give in easily. He tells the sisters that some day they will want to cling to the refuge they have spurned.

In time the outside world invades the tranquil life of the sisters. This world is symbolized by knights who took two of the fair sisters away. Slowly a blight seemed to descend on the pastoral quiet world of the sisters “as though foretelling in grief the ravages of the coming storm.” The friar enters the maiden’s home and discovers sorrow and death. Alice, the most beautiful of the sisters, has died. The eldest sister goes to a cupboard and brings out the five frames of work the sisters had worked on, and was the last thing Alice had touched on earth. We learn from the monk that Alice’s sisters had been tempted by the outer world and each had lost the man who claimed to have loved them. The monk urges the remaining sisters to get rid of their frames of embroidery, and to “let the convent be their grave.” The sisters realize that to take the veil would go against what Alice would want and so they again decline the monk’s request. Instead, the remaining sisters “caused to be executed in five large compartments of richly stained glass a faithful copy of their old embroidery work.” In time, each of the remaining sisters died, and now only remains the York cathedral windows called “The Five Sisters.”

Thoughts

This is an enjoyable tale. However, it seems somewhat out of place within the initial chapters of Nicholas Nickleby. In situations like this I like to consider what general themes or motifs might be, as well as any other prominent literary device that is obviously present. Did you find any obvious stylistic devices in the tale?

Since we have yet another tale to be told in this chapter let’s see if we can pick up any echoes or recurring stylistic touches in “The Baron of Grogzwig.” If so, then perhaps we can fit these stories into the early matrix of the novel.


In “The Baron of Groziwig” we have the tale of a young baron who lives in Germany. He loves to hunt and has 24 eager retainers who seem attached to each of his joys and adventures. Eventually the baron becomes bored with his retainers and looks about for more and different excitement which he thinks will come with marriage, and the lucky lady selected is the fair daughter of Baron Von Swillenhausen. In a short while his wife begins to complain about the baron’s male friends, and so begins a trend where “little by little, and bit by bit” the baron became, rather than a hunter of boars, a hen-pecked husband until nothing of his past joys and pleasures exists in his present life. Soon the baron found himself fully immersed in fatherhood with “a small family of twelve.” Adding to the baron’s domestic burden was a seemingly ever-present mother-in-law. Soon he fell into debt and the baron’s solution to his ever-increasing problems was to kill himself. His thoughts were strong, but his actions hesitant, and his plan to cut his throat was constantly put off.

One day the baron realizes that he was not alone in his room. He encounters “a wrinkled hideous figure, with deeply sunk and bloodshot eyes [with] an immensely long cadaverous face.” This figure announces that he is the Genius of Despair and Suicide and wants to know if the baron is ready for him. This spectre tells the baron to hurry up with his suicide. Apparently there are many suicides to attend and the baron is holding the proceedings up. After some consideration the baron decides that suicide is not the best of options for him and decides to throw off the shackles of his self-made depression and look on the bright side of life. At this point I expected a Monty Python song, but no such luck. The end of the tale comes with its own summary. Evidently, we are all to look at both sides of all questions and decisions.

With the end of this rather, to my mind at least, tedious and boring tale, we read that the coach is ready. The passengers alight and off they go until Squeers, Nicholas and the boys arrive at the George and New Inn, Greta Bridge.

Thoughts


I can’t help but think this chapter was more filler than anything else. In any case, let’s see what we can tease out of these tales, if anything.

In both tales we see the motif of love and how it forms a person’s character. Also, in both, we see what becomes of a person when they succumb to temptation, or believe that there is another better life than the one they currently have. Can you see any other trend or ideas in the two tales?

If there is any link between these tales and the greater arch of the novel we should expect human relationships, love, and a person’s ambitions to be found in some form or another. It might be wise to make a mental note or annotation in our novels just in case.

NN Chapter 7

This chapter begins with Mr Squeers seeking refreshment in a tavern leaving Nicholas and the new students to their own amusement. On the last leg of their journey to Dotheboys Hall we learn from Squeers that it really isn’t a Hall at all. Smoke and mirrors. If Dotheboys is anything like its principal, as we all probably suspect by now, it will be a dreary place indeed. And so it is. Nicholas observes that it “was a long cold-looking house, one story high, with a few straggling outbuildings behind, and a barn and stable adjoining.”

The first person we meet at Dotheboys is a boy named Smike who seems to be a favourite whipping boy of Squeers. Nicholas has serious misgivings as to what he has got himself into - or perhaps what his uncle has done to him - and feels “a depression of heart and spirit which he had never experienced before.” Upon entering Squeers’s house Nicholas finds it just as dreary inside as the surrounding country outside. Mrs Squeers appears and greets her husband with a couple of loud kisses and recounts that all the cows and pigs are doing well. As an afterthought Squeers asks after the pupils and upon hearing one is unwell thinks a good beating might cure him of any obstinacy. As they ready for a meal Smike appears with a jug of ale and upon seeing Squeers has some mail Smile looks longingly at it with an anxious and timid expression. Nicholas is immediately drawn to feel sympathy for Smike and note the “extraordinary mixture of garments” that formed Smike’s wardrobe. Nicholas notices that Smike is lame. Smike again asks if there is any letter for him and is told that there is no letter, will be no letter, and that Smike is a burden to the Squeers family. We then learn that Smike is a boy of all jobs. While Squeers tucks himself into a good meal, Nicholas continues to reflect upon his new situation. Poor sleeping arrangements, a bit of soap, a ratty towel and little comfort are all that Nicholas has for comfort his first evening at Dotheboys.

In spite of this inauspicious beginning Nicholas resolves that “he would endeavour for a time to bear whatever wretchedness might be in store for him, and that, remembering the helplessness of his mother and sister, he would give his uncle no plea for deserting them in their need.”

Thoughts

Dotheboys Hall turns out to be little more than a sorry string of rural buildings, Squeers and his wife turn out to be little more than drinkers and scammers, and the promise of his uncle helping Nicholas turns out to be little more than Nicholas being sent into exile for being a relative. Still, Nicholas tells himself to be positive. In your opinion, what is the most depressing part of Nicholas’s first impression of Dotheboys?

Dickens has introduced two new characters to us. What are your first impressions of Mrs Squeers and Smike?

Both Squeers and Smike are physically impaired. Why might Dickens assign physical impairments to his characters? Can you recall any other characters in the novel so far who also have some physical impairment or exceptionality? It may be a good idea to track such characters as the novel progresses.



Nicholas finds the letter from Newman Noggs in his pocket and it turns out to be as unique and mysterious as Newman himself. Evidently, Nicholas’s father once did a kindness for Newman. Newman offers Nicholas a place to stay if he is ever in London again, but cautions Nicholas that his rooms are sparse. In a P.S. Noggs tells Nicholas that he could get an ale at the King’s Head in London for free if he mentions Noggs’s name. Evidently, at one time, Newman Noggs was once a gentleman. As Nicholas prepares for bed for his first night his head is swirling, but what brings him to tears is the letter from Noggs. Nicholas folds it and places it in his pocket-book.

Thoughts

Newman Noggs is turning out to be a very intriguing person. He tells us he was once a gentleman. Nicholas learns that his father once did a kindness for Noggs. Now, Noggs is reaching out to Nicholas and offers help in the future. How is Newman Noggs like Nicholas’s father? How could Dickens incorporate Newman Noggs as an important character as the novel progresses?

NN Chapter 8

In this chapter we get a good look at the operation and dysfunction of Dotheboys, a place that I hope in no way reminds you of your own school days. I imagine we all have suffered through at least one teacher like Squeers (and hopefully only a minor version) so let’s slip into the corners of the school and watch as Nicholas begins his career as a teacher.

Squeers awakens Nicholas on his first day and he “tumbles up” ready to greet the day. Nicholas learns that he can’t wash because the water is frozen and thus must give himself what Squeer terms a “dry polish.” A key phrase follows when Dickens describes Nicholas’s dressing as “huddled on his clothes.” I fear Nicholas will be doing quite a bit of huddling as the day progresses. We quickly learn that the school has one school spoon and it has gone missing, a crisis it seems, as today is the “brimstone morning.” As we listen in on the conversation of the Squeers we learn that the husband and wife form a formidable pair of mean-spirited, cheap, and cruel administrators. If there is any doubt about their characters or their compassion, Smike enters the room and is immediately set upon and hit repeatedly.

Dickens is a master of understatement at times, and this chapter gives us an excellent example. Squeers praises his wife to Nicholas by saying “to them boys she is a mother. But she is more than a mother to them, ten times more. She does things for them boys, Nickleby, that I don’t believe half the mothers going would do for their own sons.” To this rather astonishing praise, Nicholas responds “I should think they would not, sir.”


Thoughts

Before we attend class with Nicholas, let’s take a look at the first paragraphs of this chapter. In what different ways does Dickens establish the nature and tone of the school?

The relationship between Mr and Mrs Squeers is an interesting one. How effective did you find Dickens’s first portrayal of them? Who do you think is the dominate person in their relationship? Why?

The last chapter was one of tales but not one that seemed connected to the main plot of the story. Now that you have read this chapter can you offer any new insights into the seemingly episodic nature of the previous chapter?



We now progress to the schoolroom, or as Squeers refers to it, “our shop.” I like that word in the context of the story. The students seem more parts of a production line than students getting an education. If the classroom is a shop, then the Squeers, the owners, are certainly making a profit at the expense of their workers. If it is a shop, then Dickens is drawing a clear parallel between the industrial factories in the north of England and the industrialization of the educational system as well. Indeed, the students sound like the vast numbers of industrial workers. Dickens writes “How the faint traces of hope, the remotest glimmering of any good to be derived from the efforts of this den, faded from the mind of Nicholas as he looked in dismay about.” Dickens continues his condemnation as Nicholas observes “Pale and haggard faces, lank and bony figures, children with the count enhances of old men, deformities with irons upon their limbs, boys of stunted growth [and a ] horrible endurance of cruelty and neglect.” Added to this scene Nicholas watches as Mrs Squeers presides over an “immense basin of brimstone and treacle.” To add insult to injury, if such is possible, the Squeers’s own son appears to be wearing the boots of one the students. These sentences show Dickens at his most angry, his most sarcastic, his most ironic. Again we see Smike, and see how he is mistreated. Over and over again Dickens attacks the school.

The lessons of the classes match the school and the children. The lessons are chaotic, misinformed, twisted and just plain wrong. Nicholas must be stunned. He has not entered the profession of teaching, he has become a part of a Dante-like nightmare. At the end of the initial lesson Squeers turns to Nicholas and states with a grand self-moment of praise, “That’s the way we do it, Nickleby.” To add insult to injury Nicholas then witnesses Squeers cane a student, not stopping the bearing until “his arm was tired out.” As Squeers delivers the mail to the boys he also delivers his own cruel comments, remarks, and naked hostility. Nicholas, for his part, was filled with “honest disgust and indignation [and] loathed himself, and felt for the moment as though the mere consciousness of his present situation must, through all time to come, prevent his raising his head in society again.”

Thoughts

Let us first hope that such a school was never one of our own personal experience. Schools as Dotheboys Hall did exist, however, and much research has been done to track down and identify the exact school Dickens was describing. Dickens and Hablot Browne toured the north of England to gain insight into the school systems. Of all the horrors of Dotheboys, which one did you find most repulsive?

Can you think of any other novel that offers such a scathing portrayal of a school?

How accurate do you think Dickens portrayal was of the school system of the time?



Nicholas fears for the welfare of his sister and mother and we are certainly put on our guard as readers as to the character and motives of Ralph Nickleby. The chapter ends with yet another appearance of Smike who is again portrayed as a very pitiful, downtrodden individual. Dickens is clearly indicating that there will be an ongoing relationship between Nicholas and Smike. When Smike laments “What faces will smile on me when I die” I felt one of those Dickens moments. Often Dickens will signal future plot developments in interactions between characters. First Newman Noggs and now Smike. I feel the plot lines and character relationships beginning to evolve.

Thoughts

The chapter ends on a dreary note. Indeed the entire chapter was dreary and depressing. Can you suggest what reasons Dickens had for compacting such emotion and depression into one chapter?

What part of this chapter did you like most?

NN Chapter 9

Chapter 9 brings us to the private fireside of the Squeers family which is, while not palatial, much superior to the accommodations provided for the students. The Squeers have two children, one a boy who we have met with his new boots and a 23 year old daughter. She is short, has a harsh voice a wonky right eye. We learn that Mrs Squeers hates Nicholas, who she has dubbed “Knuckleboy.” Later her reason is because Nicholas is a “stuck-up monkey.” It appears that Mr Squeers doesn’t care one way or the other. We learn that Nicholas is being paid £5 a year. Cheap labour? More like slave labour, I would say. In fact, Squeers offers the logic that “a slave driver in the West Indies is allowed a man under him, to see that his blacks don’t run away, or get up a rebellion; and I’ll have a man under me to do the same with our blacks ...” powerful words, powerful image. Powerful indictment of Squeers. We also learn that Nicholas was observed by Mrs Squeers reacting and apparently looking like he would interfere with the beating of a student with the name of Bolder. Such details need to be remembered as Dickens builds his setting and scene of the Yorkshire school.

Thoughts

The school and the Squeers family are odious. Even this early in Nicholas’s teaching career we know that it will not be a long tenure at this school. Can you find any sub-text in this chapter to signal what might occur in the future?


The appearance of Squeers’s daughter interests me. Hummm. We have a young and unattached young man in Nicholas and the daughter of Squeers. Later, Squeers makes a very interesting comment when the family discusses the relative merits and faults of Nicholas. He says “we make a very good friend by having him here and if he likes to learn the boys anything besides minding them, I have no objection I am sure.” What might Squeers mean when he talks about making a very good friend? Who could this “friend” be?



We learn that Fanny Squeers seems very interested in Nicholas and she designs to go into the classroom when Nicholas is there. The initial encounter between them is awkward. Nicholas attempts to be professional and Fanny is flustered. I found their conversation to be one full of sexual innuendo. Is a pen always a pen? Perhaps Freud would have an answer for us. In any case, Fanny leaves the classroom marvelling at the beauty of Nicholas’s legs.

Fanny’s best friend Tilda, a miller’s daughter, is 18 and engaged to a corn-factor’s son. Now, for the 23 year old Fanny, this presented a problem for she also would like to be engaged and it looks like Nicholas is her target. Fanny goes to spin a tale of love at first sight to her friend Tilda, most of which is not true and never happened. Fanny decides to ask Tilda and her fiancée John to tea. The tea party turns out to be a welcome bit of comedy with Nicholas performing the role of exhibit A in a romance he knows nothing about. Nicholas does, however, find some amusement in the dress of the two young ladies. Tilda’s beau John Browdie is large imposing man who is a person of few words and those he speaks are said with a broad Yorkshire dialect. Nicholas begins to stuff himself with the available food set for the tea party. John notices Nicholas’s appetite and comments on the previous teacher who was very thin. For some reason, Nicholas’s temper flairs and what follows is a French farce of comments and cross comments, misunderstandings, and misadventures. All of this is played out as the four characters play cards which surely must be a grand symbol of gamesmanship and courtship. By the end of the tea party everything and everyone is turned upside down. Fanny is in tears, and Fanny and Tilda try to out-lady each other with excessive caustic politeness. The house of cards collapses completely when Fanny says “Tilda ... I hate you.” Tilda and John leave the tea party, or what’s left of it, and John gives Nicholas an “expressive scowl with which the cut-and-thrust counts in melodramatic performances inform each other they will meet again.” The chapter ends with Nicholas voicing his regrets and unhappiness with his lot in life and his acceptance of the teaching position with Squeers.

Thoughts

A very busy chapter, meant I believe, to add some broad humour to an otherwise dreary school and life that our hero is engulfed within. I found it interesting that Dickens would make reference to theatrical melodrama. Dickens was very familiar with the stage and it appears that he has drawn some inspiration for this chapter from the stage. What parts of this chapter did you find most melodramatic? Did you find this chapter to be overdone in terms of humour, characterization or other literary devices?

In comparison our reading of Oliver Twist, to what extent are you finding the early stages of this novel to be more or less enjoyable? Do you notice any marked improvement in Dickens’s style and formation of his chapters, his characters, or his plotting?

NN Chapter 10

In chapter 10 we leave the bleakness of Dothaboys and return to London where there is another form of bleakness in the lives of Mrs Nickleby and Kate. The chapter opens with Kate in Miss La Creevy’s room sitting for a portrait. Are you enjoying Dickens’s portrayal of Miss La Creevy? Funny how one is drawn to characters. For me so far, I’m enjoying Newman Noggs and Miss La Creevy. My problem is I’m finding Nicholas Nickleby to be rather a stiff, uninteresting character. Hopefully that will change soon.

Miss La Creevy explains to Kate that to make a miniature requires much manipulation of the subject so that one either ends up with a serious portrait or a smirking one. We learn from Miss La Creevy that many people who pose for portraits in military uniforms are not in the military. All in all, we learn that Miss La Creevy is “a mixture of shrewdness and simplicity.” Such a comment from Dickens regarding a character is suggestive that we will meet her many times throughout the novel.

Kate and La Creevy spend some time discussing the various facets of Ralph Nickleby and focus on his wealth. From this discussion we learn that Kate is an honourable woman who intends to make her own way in the world and not be dependant on her uncle. She only wants her uncle’s recommendation. Surprise! Her uncle appears from behind a screen and it is apparent that he had been eavesdropping on the conversation. He announces that the Nickleby’s will no longer need to rent rooms and that he has found a situation for Kate. Ralph Nickleby is a man of business and has no time for small talk. To his mind “an absence of business habits in this family leads apparently to a great waste of words before business.” Amid all the family talk we see Mrs Nickleby is tears while complimenting herself and her own self pity.

Thoughts

What are your impressions of Ralph Nickleby in this chapter? Have they changed from or deepened from your first introduction to him?

What is your opinion of Mrs Nickleby?


We learn that Ralph Nickleby has got Kate a situation with a milliner and dress-maker. Mrs Nickleby is horrified but then quickly changes her mind and imagines the grandeur of the company Kate will associate with. I get the feeling Mrs Nickleby will be an annoyance to one and all of the characters, not to mention perhaps us readers as well. Kate’s employer is Madame Mantalini and it is Ralph’s intention to take to work immediately. If we are to assume that Ralph Nickleby is anything like his walk, then we will know from this chapter that he is an aggressive, insensitive bully. He is no companion to Kate. Kate tells her uncle that she wants to return to her mother each evening which seems to surprise the businessman, yet he had anticipated the possibility of Kate’s wish and has provided a humble place for them to stay.

The Mantalini residence is an impressive one with rich furniture, spacious staircases and drawing rooms. Into the room where Kate and her uncle wait comes a rather foppish man with the annoying habit of saying “demmit” too often. He stares a bit too long at Kate for my liking and then his wife comes into the room. She is described as a “buxom person” who is much older than the foppish gentleman whom she wedded some six months previously. Their relationship is curiously similar to that of the Squeers. In both instances the couples seem to be excessively pleased with themselves and their respective spouses. In both instances my relationship radar began twitching. It might be worthwhile to keep an eye of these two sets of apparent lovebirds. Mr Mantalini continues to gaze with lust at Kate. We learn that Kate has never held a job but Ralph assures Mrs Mantalini that Kate will be an excellent employee. As the chapter draws to a close we learn that Kate and her mother will be staying in an empty house that belongs to Ralph until he can let it. Newman Noggs is assigned to conduct Kate and her mother to this new residence which is, sadly, some distance from Kate’s job.

Thoughts

What are your initial thoughts about Kate’s job? Mrs Mantalini? Mr Mantalini?

Would you care to predict how some of the future plot may evolve given the information provided in this chapter?

In what ways are the situations of Kate and her brother similar and different at this point in the novel?

Oh, dear. I'm just nearing the end of our first installment, and here is the new discussion for the second one. This is what happens when I don't have a supplemental audio book for the car! This will, God willing, be a quieter week than the last few -- hopefully I can catch up!

Mary Lou wrote: "Oh, dear. I'm just nearing the end of our first installment, and here is the new discussion for the second one. This is what happens when I don't have a supplemental audio book for the car! This wi..."

Mary Lou

I can’t wait until we get to GE. Then you will be doubly busy with two Pip’s and Estella’s, one set from the novel and one set from your own home.

What larks!

I’ve finished the first installment but need to find time to read and post in the thread today.

Peter, you moved all the way over to Toronto?! I am all of a sudden feeling alone over here in the PNW.

Linda wrote: "I’ve finished the first installment but need to find time to read and post in the thread today.

Peter, you moved all the way over to Toronto?! I am all of a sudden feeling alone over here in the ..."

Hi Linda

Yes, a big move. We loved it in Victoria and made many new friends and had wonderful adventures. We would have stayed forever but our daughter had a baby boy, our first grandchild, and the draw of missing his early years was too much for us.

Please don’t feel too lonely. While we never met in person I’ll always be hanging out in whatever pub the Curiosities choose to frequent. You will know I’m there by the sound of my singing voice.

:-))

That's old english the guard's speaking, right? I can understand the Canterbury Tales better in their original english.

Peter, that's a lot of intriguing questions you are asking here, and I thank you very much for all the effort and care you put into your recaps. I will concentrate on Chapter 6 first because the insertion of two so very different stories struck me as odd.

My first thought was that Dickens probably did not know how to fill the chapter or that he was behind schedule in a way and therefore used material that he had previously written. Maybe, he also wanted to tie in with narrative strategies used in PP, interspersing the main plot with short stories, which enabled him to adopt different styles and moods. The story of the Five Sisters is a lot different from the story of the Baron of Grogzwig, and this reminded me of the different stories in PP: We had the very serious and dramatic ones about the Dying Clown or the Mysterious Client, but we also had funny ones about the man who gave some clever advice to a ghost or the other one who received some clever advice by a ghostly chair. In other words, these stories gives a mixed bag of moods and styles.

However, I think that in NN, these stories may be read as the writer's comment on his own task: We might see the merry gentlemen and the melancholy gentlemen, i.e. the two passengers who tell the stories, as two sides of the same person, i.e. the narrator as such. Both of them tell us something about life and about the way of dealing with its darker, or less pleasant sides, and in both stories the message is one of serenity and optimism, even though the first story is more serious in tone. But even the first story tells us that life is for the living of it, something that the second story expresses in a more light-hearted vein.

In this context, it might also be interesting to look at the exchange of arguments between the two gentlemen, an exchange in which the merry passenger by and by convinces the more melancholy one:

"'[...] The sun does not shine upon this fair earth to meet frowning eyes, depend upon it.’

‘I believe you are right,’ said the gentleman who had told the story.

‘Believe!’ retorted the other, ‘can anybody doubt it? Take any subject of sorrowful regret, and see with how much pleasure it is associated. The recollection of past pleasure may become pain—’

‘It does,’ interposed the other.

‘Well; it does. To remember happiness which cannot be restored, is pain, but of a softened kind. Our recollections are unfortunately mingled with much that we deplore, and with many actions which we bitterly repent; still in the most chequered life I firmly think there are so many little rays of sunshine to look back upon, that I do not believe any mortal (unless he had put himself without the pale of hope) would deliberately drain a goblet of the waters of Lethe, if he had it in his power.’

‘Possibly you are correct in that belief,’ said the grey-haired gentleman after a short reflection. ‘I am inclined to think you are.’

‘Why, then,’ replied the other, ‘the good in this state of existence preponderates over the bad, let miscalled philosophers tell us what they will. If our affections be tried, our affections are our consolation and comfort; and memory, however sad, is the best and purest link between this world and a better. [...]'"

Some readers might have argued that there are topics in NN that had better not be addressed in a satirical and humourous vein, e.g. the villainies of Squeers and of Ralph, because they are of too serious a nature. I must say I did not particularly enjoy the jokes about Squeers's beating his pupils, but then maybe the arguments between the two passengers are meant to mirror possible arguments between the narrator and these more skeptical readers? Who knows?

Peter wrote: "I can’t help but think this chapter was more filler than anything else ..."

Works if you're paid by the word.

Interesting, Peter, I liked the latter tale better than the former one. The monk annoyed me; he's a stalker. In both tales, the protagonists are faced with a decision, and each decides to go on with their lives as they are. The difference is, I think, the baron is again happy while the sisters never are (although they may be content). In that regard each tale reflects the personality of its teller.

Was the ghost of despair named Marley?

Oh, and did I read that right? When the monk sits on a hard rock the angels are pleased. Says something about this particular monk's place in the scheme if things, no?

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Oh, and did I read that right? When the monk sits on a hard rock the angels are pleased. Says something about this particular monk's place in the scheme if things, no?"

Xan

The monk was certainly not a fun guy. I think one reason I liked the first best was the fact that I’ve been to the cathedral in York. What magnificent stained glass windows.

The fairy tales bored me a little, but I think they're there to get the reader thinking about themes and morals and how these might relate to the main plot.

To me, the Five Sisters was about triumph over spiritual rigidity, symbolized by the chastising monk, while the baron story was about triumph over worldly limitations, symbolized by the overbearing wife. Each story was leading to a kind of prison for the characters, but they persevered and kept their integrity. The goal is to perfect both sides of life, the spiritual and material, in order to achieve happiness.

I have a feeling that the parallel plots of Kate and Nicholas are about perfecting the two sides. How will they react to various manipulations and limitations placed on them by others? I think this is why they were separated and will probably come back together at some point.

I also wonder if Noggs is analogous to the Genius of Despair and Suicide, since both have a "cadaverous face" (a unique descriptor). Noggs has already served as a ghost-like intermediary to Nicholas, giving him a secret letter that the other characters don't know about. Will he also give hints to Kate?

Alissa wrote: "The fairy tales bored me a little, but I think they're there to get the reader thinking about themes and morals and how these might relate to the main plot.

To me, the Five Sisters was about trium..."

Alissa

I like your insights and analysis very much. The idea of “two sides” bears watching carefully as we progress through the novel.

Peter, regarding your question about people telling tales to pass time or amuse each other, I was reminded of Poe's The Fall of The House of Usher.

Though it was not to amuse, but to pass the time I suppose. The story within that story foreshadowed almost by the moment all of the things about to take place in the House of Usher.

Alissa,

you definitely put things about those two stories in a nutshell for me. The prison parallel makes absolute sense to me, and we must not forget that Ralph is trying to prepare some kind of prison for both the young Nicklebys: Nicholas is got out of the way by dispatching him to Yorkshire, and Kate is obviously also confined in her freedom when her uncle makes her work for Mrs. Mantalini. Not only are her working hours immense, but there is also the way to work and back. Apart from that, it is clear that danger is afoot in the form of the lewd Mr. Mantalini. He is definitely a rake and a lecher, and it is not clear how far he will go to gratify his obviously sexual interest in Kate. As his wife's employee, and as a young single woman, unprotected and dependent on her job, she is unfortunately fair game for Mr. Mantalini, and it is quite clear that Ralph is not too ignorant of what is going on at the Mantalinis'.

Peter wrote: "NN Chapter 10

Are you enjoying Dickens’s portrayal of Miss La Creevy? ..."
Miss La Creevy reminds me a lot of Jenny Wren. Dickens seems to have several types of female characters; "Do what I want or I'll be hysterical" - Miss Knag is one of these, and Mrs Mantalini would be one, but is outdone by her husband, and Mrs Bumble (Oliver Twist). The "Pleasantly Befuddled" - Mrs. Nickleby. The beautiful and virtuous (Kate), and the single eccentric with an odd occupation and a heart of gold - both Jenny Wren (Our Mutual Friend) and Miss La Creavy.

So, I'm through chapter 8, and I'm comparing Squeers with Fagin, and Fagin is coming out the better. Fagin fed, clothed, and housed his kids better than Squeers. Looks like they both specialized in "taking care" of children no one else wanted. Of course, Squeers' kids had to have parents, because someone had to pay the 20 guineas per annum to rid themselves of them.

Read Dickens and you pretty much have a chronology of all the social ills in England.

Oh, and I almost forgot: there isn't a whole lot of distance between Mrs. Squeers and Mrs. Cornby (aka Mrs. Bumble).

Peter wrote: "Yes, a big move. We loved it in Victoria and made many new friends and had wonderful adventures. We would have stayed forever but our daughter had a baby boy, our first grandchild, and the draw of missing his early years was too much for us."

Being close to your first grandchild is a very good reason to make such a big move, Peter! Enjoy all the time ahead with him. :)

Peter wrote: "With the end of this rather, to my mind at least, tedious and boring tale, we read that the coach is ready."

I have just finished chapter six, but admittedly I did not read the second tale, so I am glad to find out that it was not a very exciting one.

I suppose my enjoyment of the inclusion of these types of tales depends on my expectations of the book. Here, I was not expecting tales to be inserted and taken away from the adventures of Nicholas, so I found myself annoyed, and probably why I skipped the second tale. Hopefully there are not many more of these.

The only other major book with tales like this that comes to mind is Don Quixote, and I enjoyed that book quite a bit. But, like in Pickwick Papers, it seemed that the inclusion of these tales was part of the structure of the book.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "So, I'm through chapter 8, and I'm comparing Squeers with Fagin, and Fagin is coming out the better. Fagin fed, clothed, and housed his kids better than Squeers. Looks like they both specialized in..."

Agreed, Squeers makes Fagin look not so bad. I'm finding myself more disturbed by Dotheboys Hall than I was with the workhouse in OT. Maybe because Dickens goes into more detail about the diseases, deformities, and the boys' ragged clothing. The boys also seem weaker and more scared.

Squeers reading letters aloud from parents chastising their sons, while defending him, the abuser, was chilling too.

Chapter 7.

I fear for what is to come given the preliminary descriptions of the boys "hall" now that Nicholas has arrived. I assume he has good reason to feel a sense of dread.

Also, Mrs. Sneers is now on my dislike list after calling Nicholas "Mr. Knuckleboy".

Oh! And I'm glad to finally see the contents of Newman Noggs's letter, even though it brought tears to Nicholas's eyes. At least Nicholas knows there is outside help or someone who knows his real situation if he feels the need to reach out.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "So, I'm through chapter 8, and I'm comparing Squeers with Fagin, and Fagin is coming out the better. Fagin fed, clothed, and housed his kids better than Squeers. Looks like they both specialized in..."

Xan

The Fagin/Squeers comparison is very interesting. I’m with you. Without too much irony, Fagin was teaching his “pupils” a life skill, and there was a form of family with Fagin’s gang. For those of Fagin’s children who grew into adults their world world would perhaps follow in Sikes’s footsteps and that is a horrible thought, but then we look at Smike and realize that both options are horrific.

What a dilemma for us readers. Would we prefer to accept that Squeers get paid by parents who do not want their own children and are willing to pay to rid themselves of their own flesh and blood, or do we prefer to roll the dice and hope that the Artful Dodger and Charlie Bates of Fagin’s world may find their way out of his clutches?

Such a choice is theoretical but I would choose Fagin over Squeers. The Dotheboys Hall beatings are very disturbing even in a fictional novel. To know that such schools existed makes me shutter.

Linda wrote: "Peter wrote: "With the end of this rather, to my mind at least, tedious and boring tale, we read that the coach is ready."

I have just finished chapter six, but admittedly I did not read the secon..."

Hi Linda

This may be a spoiler of sorts but I’ll chance it. We are out of the woods when it comes to completely disjointed tales in NN.

Like you, I am really enjoying the parts where Newman Noggs appears in the story.

Thank you for your good wishes. :-))

Peter wrote: "NN Chapter 10

All in all, we learn that Miss La Creevy is “a mixture of shrewdness and simplicity.” ..."

I loved this quote, and I love La Creevy, who hits us with so many brilliant sayings in a page, I'm pretty sure there's not more of her just because Dickens was afraid he couldn't keep it up:

"I don't [rent out uniforms] myself, for I don't consider it legitimate."

"When a man's a bear he is generally pretty independent."

"Rough! A porcupine's a feather bed to him."

I could read her all day.

Linda, the only thing I do like about Mrs. Squeers is that she calls Nicholas "Knuckleboy." :)

After reading that Kate is to make 5-7 shillings a week for a 12-plus-hour workday with no weekend mentioned, I became curious about whether she could afford a Dickens novel, and found this:

"The Pickwick Papers appeared in 20 parts over a period of 19 months.... The price for each part was one shilling (except for the last "double issue," which was two). This price was very cheap compared to the standard price of a book, which at the time was 31 shillings 6 pence."
Source: https://dickens.ucsc.edu/resources/fa...

So a novel is about 5 weeks of work for her. I'm glad she's not paying rent--yet.

Julie wrote: "After reading that Kate is to make 5-7 shillings a week for a 12-plus-hour workday with no weekend mentioned, I became curious about whether she could afford a Dickens novel, and found this:

"The ..."

Julie

Thanks for this information. Each part was a staggering price for a person of limited means. This may explain, in part, the success of the lending library during Victorian times.

Peter wrote: "Julie wrote: "After reading that Kate is to make 5-7 shillings a week for a 12-plus-hour workday with no weekend mentioned, I became curious about whether she could afford a Dickens novel, and foun..."

Now you've got me going. :)

Circulating libraries tended to be upper or middle-class, too:

"The vast majority of circulating libraries rented books for an annual or quarterly fee, a system that notably simplified accounts. Market forces kept fees relatively standard among the large metropolitan libraries of any particular period. Between the 1730s and 1842 the standard annual fee generally amounted to about double the purchase price of a normal three-volume novel of the time, although in real terms it rose from a low of half a guinea (ten shillings and six pence) in the 1750s to two guineas (forty-two shillings) by 1814. When Mudie's Select Library opened in 1842, it undercut other libraries with a fee of only one guinea, which amounted to half rather than double the purchase price of a three-volume novel, but only because Mudie used his clout with publishers to maintain the cost of a “triple-decker” novel at a whopping thirty-one shillings and six pence."
http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/1...

I think what this suggests is that Kate is not earning a middle-class income working for the Mantalinis--it's a working-class income that in no way would have replaced the money her mother and father lost.

Given Kate's status and education--she's a displaced gentlewoman who can speak French--it would have been far more appropriate for her uncle to place her as a teacher or governess. Ralph Nickleby wants to humiliate her. I'm not all that sure we've been given a clear reason why.

Julie wrote: "Peter wrote: "Julie wrote: "After reading that Kate is to make 5-7 shillings a week for a 12-plus-hour workday with no weekend mentioned, I became curious about whether she could afford a Dickens n..."

I'm remembering now that there were fee-free charitable libraries for working-class people. But there was a lot of debate about whether these ought to be permitted to carry fiction, which was not Useful.

Julie wrote: "Peter wrote: "Julie wrote: "After reading that Kate is to make 5-7 shillings a week for a 12-plus-hour workday with no weekend mentioned, I became curious about whether she could afford a Dickens n..."

Julie

Thank you for the follow up information and the link to lending libraries. Mudie and Smith were quite the entrepreneurs. One more book to add to my pile is the Richard Altick.

One of the enjoyable parts of Goodreads and the Curiosities is the opportunity to learn so much. As a moderator, it is always interesting to find out where the group discussion is finding an interesting focus. For my next commentary I will keep my eyes open for the wages of our characters. It is evident that Nicholas and Kate are not making much money, and certainly less discretionary money than would allow for such indulgences as the frequent purchase or membership with a lending library.

To think Nicholas was to earn only £5 per year at Dotheboys is shocking. Again, thanks for the detective work.

Carol wrote: "Peter wrote: "NN Chapter 10

Are you enjoying Dickens’s portrayal of Miss La Creevy? ..."
Miss La Creevy reminds me a lot of Jenny Wren. Dickens seems to have several types of female characters; "D..."

Carol,

Your categories are surely very convincing. What about my favourite character, Mrs. Gamp? ;-)

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Oh, and I almost forgot: there isn't a whole lot of distance between Mrs. Squeers and Mrs. Cornby (aka Mrs. Bumble)."

It's interesting that you think the children were better off with Fagin than with Squeers because the reasons you give make me come to the same conclusion. There is only the danger of being hanged, which the Dodger and his comrades had to be aware of (or blissfully ignorant of, be that as it may), that was spared to the inmates of Dotheboys Hall. Those, however, could die of all sorts of other ailments, or simply of a broken heart and despair.

When you add that Mrs. Corney is also a lot like Mrs. Squeers in respect of ill-treating the children, one may draw a very unsettling conclusion: Namely that for certain children in Victorian times it might have been better to have fallen among thieves and receivers than to be looked after and cared for by representatives of the welfare or the educational system. And that is bleak, indeed!

Alissa wrote: "Squeers reading letters aloud from parents chastising their sons, while defending him, the abuser, was chilling too. ..."

And the lesson learned by the children is abandon all hope ye who trespass here. Squeers is your master, your punisher, your executioner.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Alissa wrote: "Squeers reading letters aloud from parents chastising their sons, while defending him, the abuser, was chilling too. ..."

And the lesson learned by the children is abandon all hope ..."

It's hard to read. I found myself wanting to go back to Kate and Mrs. N, just to get out of that not-hall.

Linda wrote: "The only other major book with tales like this that comes to mind is Don Quixote, and I enjoyed that book quite a bit. .."

Don Quixote was great fun for me, the inserted stories mostly not so, because, if I remember well, there were romances mostly. Nevertheless, I should really give that book a re-read!

Alissa wrote: "Squeers reading letters aloud from parents chastising their sons, while defending him, the abuser, was chilling too. "

I really wonder whether the parents did not know any better, or whether they were in the know and just tried to hide from their children the unpleasant truth that they did not really care for them and wanted them to get and stay out of the way.

Tristram wrote: "Namely that for certain children in Victorian times it might have been better to have fallen among thieves and receivers than to be looked after and cared for by representatives of the welfare or the educational system. And that is bleak, indeed! ..."

Exactly, and while child thieves risked hanging, Squeer's wards risk death by malnutrition and crippling by constant caning. The whipping that child took some adults could not survive.

Peter wrote: "Such a choice is theoretical but I would choose Fagin over Squeers. The Dotheboys Hall beatings are very disturbing even in a fictional novel. To know that such schools existed makes me shutter."

I felt the same - reading about those maltreated and beaten children made me shudder and wince because I invariably had to think about my own son in such a situation. I found it especially terrible when the boys deposed at the Saracen's Head would have by and by realized what they were in for. Another thing that really shocked me is the story of Smike, esp. the passage when he talks about the other boys who, when dying, suddenly saw faces and heard voices from their home and childhood - which makes him wonder what kind of faces or voices he would hear in such a situation. It's terrible to think of a little boy spending his whole life at Dotheboys Hall and never knowing anything else but the Squeerses.

In a way, I cannot really enjoy the humour that is supposed to be in those Dotheboys Hall scenes, and I hate the guts of Squeers and his spawn.

Julie wrote: "After reading that Kate is to make 5-7 shillings a week for a 12-plus-hour workday with no weekend mentioned, I became curious about whether she could afford a Dickens novel, and found this:

"The ..."

Thanks, Julie - information like that helps putting into correlations all the money references we get in Victorian literature. These generally mean very little to us, but must have been full of meaning to contemporary readers.

There was supposed to be humor in those scenes? After the caning, I found myself skimming during the letter readings. Didn't someone say the publisher wanted lighter fare than OT?

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "There was supposed to be humor in those scenes? After the caning, I found myself skimming during the letter readings. Didn't someone say the publisher wanted lighter fare than OT?"

Yes, I think I like La Creevy so much partly because she's such a rare bright spot here.

Julie wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "There was supposed to be humor in those scenes? After the caning, I found myself skimming during the letter readings. Didn't someone say the publisher wanted lighter fare ..."

(So of course they are moving out of her house. Ugh.)

Chapter 9

Well, that was ... that was ... interesting. I have yet to see where this is going, but I've had more than enough of the Squeers. Let's let Nicholas fend for himself for a while.

Anyone besides me think there's too great a difference in intelligence and in language between Mathilda and her farmer boy for that marriage to work? What was Dickens thinking giving those two such wildly different dialects? Is this particular to Yorkshire at this time?

Don't know if this has already been mentioned, but in the spirit of sharing in case it hasn't, here you go.

Squeers and his Hall are based on William Shaw and his Bowes academy. Shaw was sued by parents of boys who went blind while in Shaw's care. Here's a bit on it. You can read more, including some children's testimony at the link at the bottom.

-------------------------

After the court cases, life evidently returned to normal for Shaw and Bowes Academy. The bad publicity did not deter parents and Shaw saw no need to vary the wording in his adverts. Then in 1838 Charles Dickens took a hand. With Nicholas Nickleby in mind, Dickens made his famous visit to the north country in 1838 and met Shaw on 2 February. The novel was serialised between March 1838 and September 1839. There is no doubt that Dickens intended the headmaster Wackford Squeers to be a portrayal of William Shaw; equally, Dotheboys Hall was Bowes Academy. Whether these portrayals were entirely fair is another matter altogether. Dickens had a passionate (or vitriolic) dislike of these northern schools, as he admitted in the preface of the 1848 edition of Nicholas Nickleby:

These Yorkshire schoolmasters were the lowest and most rotten in the whole ladder. Traders in the avarice, indifference, or imbecility of parents, and the helplessness of children; ignorant, sordid, brutal men, to whom few considerate persons would have entrusted the board and lodging of a horse or a dog; they formed the worthy corner-stone of a structure, which, for absurdity and a magnificent high-handed laissez-aller neglect, has rarely been exceeded in the world.

Shaw stood no chance of salvaging his reputation. In the prefaces to both the 1839 and 1848 editions Dickens referred - without mentioning Shaw explicitly - to the earlier court records, thereby heading off any possibility of his being sued by Shaw for libel. This time the bad publicity clearly did take its toll. Shaw's last advert in The Times was in July 1840. By the time of the 1841 census (June 1841) Shaw, still in his late fifties, was no longer a schoolmaster but living with three of his children as a gentleman of independent means. He died in Bowes in 1850 at the age of 67 and was buried in the churchyard.

And what of poor young William Jones? Blind and pock-marked, he was never going to lead the life envisaged for him by his parents. In fact, he lived to a ripe old age in the outer reaches of London. He married twice and had at least one son. However, the early years must have been particularly hard: in 1841 his trade was recorded as licensed hawker (ie street seller), the traditional occupation of Victorian London's blind. William's fortunes may then have improved slightly. He became a musician and we can only hope that his musical career prospered.

http://www.researchers.plus.com/shaw.htm