Reading the 20th Century discussion

This is a discussion thread for A Long Long Way by Sebastian Barry. Our WW1 group read for November 2018.


Thanks to everyone who nominated, discussed the choices, and voted. This thread will open in November 2018

A Long Long Way, according to Hugh who nominated it, gives an unusual perspective on the war from the point of view of Irish soldiers, who were anything but feted heroes when they came home in the aftermath of the Easter Rising. It has some pretty graphic descriptions of the chaos of war too

The blurb....

Praised as a “master storyteller” (The Wall Street Journal) and hailed for his “flawless use of language” (Boston Herald), Irish author and playwright Sebastian Barry has created a powerful new novel about divided loyalties and the realities of war.In 1914, Willie Dunne, barely eighteen years old, leaves behind Dublin, his family, and the girl he plans to marry in order to enlist in the Allied forces and face the Germans on the Western Front. Once there, he encounters a horror of violence and gore he could not have imagined and sustains his spirit with only the words on the pages from home and the camaraderie of the mud-covered Irish boys who fight and die by his side.  Dimly aware of the political tensions that have grown in Ireland in his absence, Willie returns on leave to find a world split and ravaged by forces closer to home. Despite the comfort he finds with his family, he knows he must rejoin his regiment and fight until the end. With grace and power, Sebastian Barry vividly renders Willie’s personal struggle as well as the overwhelming consequences of war.

Let the discourse commence....

This is the latest entry on my 5-star reads shelf.

I have read a fair amount of WWI fiction, but nothing from the Irish perspective, and I was very glad to have read this. Willie Dunne signs up at the outset of the war, only to have troubles on the home front, where many in Dublin do not honor him for serving "God and the King". The fight for Home Rule is reaching fever pitch.

My grandfather and his older brother were in the Connaught Rangers, an Irish Catholic regiment of the British army and the first to be recorded singing the song as part of the BEF, so I am looking forward to reading this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPLS5...
(This is John McCormack singing, but includes WWI photographs)

I've read about 120 pages so far and am very impressed - it's very moving and I think the scenes of battle and in the trenches have a nightmarish quality to them.

You really get the feeling of Willie as a young lad who doesn't always understand what is going on around him and doesn't know the full picture, only the tiny corner that he is stuck in. The first attack with poison gas, where they don't even know what it is, is a particularly strong section.

Having read a fair amount of WWI fiction, and especially war scenes, I thought these were the weakest part of this novel (which I rated 5 stars). I felt Barry kept a distance between the reader and his characters in these sections. Where I thought we could really get close and know Willie well, was at home in Dublin.

I think the parts at home in Dublin are very good too, but so far for me the standout scenes have been the poison gas and his muddled, hasty confrontation with the Easter Rising - another scene where the fact that Willie only knows a little bit of what is happening adds to the power, for me. I still have more than half the book to go, though.

Yes, I too thought Barry's recreation of the chaos of battle was rather impressive, and unsentimental. Mind you I wouldn't call myself an expert in battle literature...

I think the dialogue really rings true, with all the swearing and squalor, the dreadful food and just the constant confusion.

It strikes me that a lot (not all) of the WW1 portrayals I've read have involved the officer class, such as Evelyn Waugh's The Sword of Honour Trilogy and Ford Madox Ford's Parade's End, both brilliant, but interesting to see from the point of view of a poor Irish boy within the "poor bloody infantry".

The first one I read of battle scenes was All Quiet on the Western Front. Others that I rated 5 stars that will give you a better sense of being at the front is Birdsong, Three Day Road, and Storm of Steel. Two that I didn't rate so highly, but are better at putting you in the trenches are Fear: A Novel of World War I and Under Fire. Of those, I think only Birdsong also does well away from the front.

What I appreciated most about Sebastian Barry's rendering was the Irish perspective. He showed how the Irish combatants were "wrong" no matter which direction they faced. This made Willie Dunne more individual than in the others I mention, where the experiences were those you could feel for all of the soldiers.

I think All Quiet on the Western Front is sheer genius, but I wasn't all that keen on Birdsong - I thought some of the battle scenes were very good, especially the parts set in the tunnels, but the love story element of this book doesn't work for me.

I have also read Storm of Steel, and remember that it feels very realistic and is clearly true to life, but, if I'm remembering rightly, it doesn't give much sense of his emotions and is a bit distant.

Judy wrote: "I have also read Storm of Steel, and remember that it feels very realistic and is clearly true to life, but, if I'm remembering rightly, it doesn't give much sense of his emotions and is a bit distant. "

It's been awhile since I've read it, but my comment was about how realistic were the battle scenes . It's how I remember it, and I could be misremembering. I think Sebastian Barry falls short in that department.

As to war time love stories, Birdsong was believable to me because I can see with my own eyes the numbers of mixed marriages with American and Asians post war. I could see no reason why an English/French love story would be far fetched.

As far as memory serves, I just thought the love story in Birdsong was overwritten and unconvincing - not that there was anything unlikely about an English/French love story in itself. But I would have to look back at the book to remember in more detail.

Sorry, I had misremembered - I've just noticed that I wrote a review of Birdsong, and I see I did get caught up in the love story, but didn't like some bits about a descendant in the 1970s. Here's a link to my review if anyone is interested:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Judy wrote: "Sorry, I had misremembered - I've just noticed that I wrote a review of Birdsong, and I see I did get caught up in the love story, but didn't like some bits about a descendant in the 1970s. Here's ..."

So interesting that we're ending up discussing a different book - it's the way of things here at RTTC! (And I'm definitely *not* complaining). Yes, I agree that the sections with the descendant were weaker than the WWI parts.

I'm sure we will get back to A Long Long Way - but yes, we can tend to go off at tangents :) By the way, I didn't realise where the title came from until I had read a few chapters and suddenly noticed I had "It's a long, long way to Tipperary" on my brain!

To begin with I thought I had made a wrong choice with this book. I found the flowery writing just irritated me, and was annoyed at how it just seemed endless.. Once I had gone through this, I found it to be quite an interesting story. I knew something of the Easter Uprising, so was surprised at how many of the Irish joined the army for this war. A few years ago, I visited a reconstruction of a WW1 trench, so that helped me visualise the conditions the characters were enduring. I was under the impression that the first mustard gas was used in 1917, but seems if you google it, you can pick any relevant year you want, so I am willing to go along with the author here.

Jill wrote: "I found the flowery writing just irritated me, and was annoyed at how it just seemed endless.. "

I was so pleased it wasn't what has become typical dumbed down 21st Century prose.

I think the part about them singing is very moving - I wish he'd said what the Crimean War song that one of the soldiers performs was, though.

I just listened to Roses of Picardy and to an Irish folk song from the Crimean War, The Kerry Recruit, which doesn't fit the description but is certainly a stirring song - and describes similar experiences to the ones in A Long, Long Way.

I didn't actually connect with any of the characters, but yes the singing was moving. I could have done without the blow by blow of the boxing but I liked the way they lost their inhibitions and danced with each other

I'm about a third of the way through and am a wee bit disappointed so far: the scenes set in the trenches are well done but also feel done before (I've read a lot of WW1 lit including memoirs and poetry written during/just after the conflict, so this may well be me).

I was looking forward to more about Ireland and the Easter Rising but, so far, I've found it not completely credible that Willie, whose father is a senior police officer, seems to have had no idea that the civil conflict had reached such a pitch. Technically, of course, it allows Barry to fill in his readers on the background but I found it a bit jarring.

I usually like Barry's lyrical writing style (is he a poet as well?) but there are places where he overreaches and it can feel laboured.

Still, it's relatively early days at about 32%. I am enjoying it - just not as much as I expected after his Days Without End.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I was looking forward to more about Ireland and the Easter Rising but, so far, I've found it not completely credible that Willie, whose father is a senior police officer, seems to have had no idea that the civil conflict had reached such a pitch ..."

I thought it was because he had just come back from France and was so tied up in the war that he had lost touch with what was happening in Ireland - that seemed possible to me, although I take your point about his father being a police officer.

Well I'm no expert by any means but I thought that the Home Rulers and the Unionists had been squaring up to each other for the last few years before 1914 and that the outbreak of war actually prevented the crisis from exploding earlier. Anyway, it's a minor niggle, nothing more. Now that I've read further, the tensions amongst the Irish soldiers and their concerns about what's happening at home based on their reading the papers is more prominent and closer to what I expected.

I was interested in the Chinese workers who are used to bury the dead - I'd never heard of them in relation to WW1 before. Does anyone know more about their status? They seem to be non-combatants so are they some form of servants or labourers?

this has some info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese...

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/...

Roman Clodia wrote: "Well I'm no expert by any means but I thought that the Home Rulers and the Unionists had been squaring up to each other for the last few years before 1914..."
They had, but the situation only turned violent after the Home Rule Act (1914).

China had not declared war, so the Chinese workers could not be used in combat roles but could be recruited as labourers. China was a pre-industrial society; goods were transported by porters and farming was mainly by hand, which meant there was a huge potential workforce of people used to manual labour.
PS Having looked at the links now, I see that comment is redundant. I was not aware that the CLC was supposed to be a secret of some kind, but commemorations of the war have tended to focus on those who were fighting and dying in the front line, so those in support roles are less well known.

That's fascinating about the Chinese workers - thanks Jill and Val.

I've just finished this and overall found it very moving and intense - so much so that I couldn't read it for too long at a time.

I thought the last section of the book set in Ireland was especially strong, but won't go into detail about that section yet as I don't want to post spoilers at this stage. I would really like to read a whole book set in Ireland by Barry next - any suggestions?

Some of the parts set on the Western Front do become repetitive, but I recognise that is intentional, putting across the relentlessness of it all and making it seem like a nightmare which goes on and on.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "The first one I read of battle scenes was All Quiet on the Western Front. Others that I rated 5 stars that will give you a better sense of being at the front is Birdsong, ..."
All Quiet on the Western Front is an excellent book, but it was written a long time after the war it depicts and when another was looming. Under Fire and Storm of Steel were written closer to the time and may seem a bit detached because the emotions were still raw. My favourite WWI book, along with Remarque's, is To the Slaughterhouse, but very little of it is about the fighting.

I agree that this picked up in the latter half: 3.5 stars for me, rounded up to 4. I'll hold my other comments for the moment to avoid spoilers.

Many thanks for the information about the Chinese workers, Jill and Val.

I've found some more info about the campaign for a memorial in their honour, mentioned in the Express article, and it looks as if this will be built in East London - this is the campaign's website:

http://ensuringweremember.org.uk/

And this is an article from the Guardian for a few years ago which tells how the Chinese workers were literally painted out of a giant memorial painting.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/201...

Val wrote: "My favourite WWI book, along with Remarque's, is To the Slaughterhouse, but very little of it is about the fighting...."

I've been meaning to read this for a long time but it has somehow slipped down my list - will get on and do so.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire has his world wars confused, the first has never been portrayed as 'plucky little England standing alone against the enemy', not even by the Daily Hate Mail.
Japan was one of the Allied Powers for the entire war, why should they have been asked to surrender territory?

It looks as if the disputed territory was a very complicated issue. I've just looked up a couple of articles and, if I'm understanding them correctly, the issue at Versailles was over a former German territory within Shandong, which Japan only took over in 1914 after the war had started.

When China first supported the Allies apparently it was under the understanding/in the hope that this area would be restored to them after the war, but there were conflicting agreements and treaties on the issue over the next few years.

A couple of links:
https://www.britannica.com/event/Shan...

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...

Those links do make it clearer. I can see why the conference awarded it to Japan and why the Chinese were upset by the decision.

Having watched most of Peter Jackson’s documentary, I was constantly reminded of A Long Long Way, as so many of the scenes are very similar- Barry is clearly very authentic in his descriptions, from the mud to the brothels.

I had a late night on Saturday so was tucked up in bed very early last night, however I recorded the Jackson film and will be prioritising it this week. I hope to start it today. I can't wait to see it.

On the Chinese workers, I've just noticed that I mentioned a documentary about this some time back in our First World War History thread - I just checked and it is still available to watch on the All 4 website (don't know if this works outside the UK).

Here is the blurb:
Britain's Forgotten Army. This documentary reveals the story of the 140,000 Chinese workers who came to Europe in 1917 and risked their lives for the Allied war effort but whose vital contribution was painted out of history

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/b...

Is anyone still reading this, or can we get on to discussing the ending, maybe over the weekend?

Great meandering thread ,which is why I love being in this group . Hive Brain in action .

DOI . I've been interested in WW1 all my life as my father , born in 1923 , confided that it's terrible destruction hung like a bleak cloud over his childhood . He saw combat as a teenager in WW2 and the pattern was repeated, as he never really got over what happened to him , becoming a Quaker and a pacifist as a result . He could never talk about it .

My learning was completely self driven and I found the series of books by Lynn MacDonald , a BBC producer who set about capturing the voices of surviving participants at every level before they died , to be small masterpieces of historical writing . Of particular interest was the detail she included about the sheer labour involved and performed by Chinese and Africans in rail and road building and the work of women in the field hospitals . I can recommend The Roses of No Man's Land, as well as the books that chart the battles over the years .

As I said my father never talked about it but , before he died , I took him to Picardy and Belgium on a Holts Battlefield Tour . Poignantly this company was formed in the post war period to take the grief struck relatives to the churned and chaotic sites of the trenches so their tone and focus was always respectful , for both sides . I then took my family on holiday to explore and to include Verdun , further East , where France lost its heart and soul .

So , back to this book . I agree the writing was a tad flowery and that Will Hutton was defined by his intellectual vacancy , which means he is endearingly straightforward .But he was only a young lad and already bewildered and traumatized by his experience . He had been brought up with unassailable beliefs in his father and all he wanted was to please him so the turmoil of the 1916 Uprising on top of his own experiences was believable to me .

That said , I agree it's not the best WW1 novel I've read . As well as those already mentioned I'll add The Return of the Soldier / Rebecca West .

Hester wrote: "Great meandering thread ,which is why I love being in this group . Hive Brain in action .

DOI . I've been interested in WW1 all my life as my father , born in 1923 , confided that it's terrible de..."

I love Return of the Soldier!
Neither my father nor anyone else's that I know talked much about their war experience in WWII. Many of them had a handful of humorous events they would trot out when asked about their experience. Same for those who were in WWI for that matter, though that generation mostly died before I was old enough to want to ask them. I am in America, and our involvement in that war was limited, so there probably weren't many veterans around me; my father's father was 4F (i.e., ineligible for the draft) as the only support of a widowed mother, and my mother's father was 10 when that war ended. Near the end of his life, my dad took us on a day trip on a Liberty ship (he had been in the merchant marine during the war; in fact he went to the service academy, which is the only US service academy that sends its students into the field of war), and on that trip he told us some things he'd never said before.

This book must have passed me by. I didn't know we were reading it and I apparently didn't pick it up. Something I would usually do if I have the vaguest interest in the subject. Maybe because I still haven't figured what to do about no notifications.

I had a great-uncle in the Great War. He had been gassed and apparently just recovered when he volunteered to help hold the pass open. Action for which he received medals, including the Congressional Medal of Honor. His tale is told, briefly, in To Conquer Hell: The Meuse-Argonne, 1918 by Edward G. Lengel. Basically he took from the citation. The book focuses more on Alvin York - a cousin. A Liberty ship was named for Uncle Gilbert. He has been celebrated as a favorite son of Baltimore. I saw a press clipping that my grandmother must have saved - showing that there was a big turnout for his funeral after they brought the body home and laid him out in the living room. I believe it numbered in the thousands - I want to think 8 but probably more like 3.

WWII - my mother had a cousin who ran away to the Merchant Marine. He would later be a captain for the president of Liberia - I think on the rivers and coast of Liberia and he married the president's daughter. They would have to escape with whatever they could carry during the revolution. She told me that they escaped in a VW and she had to put whatever she could into a shoe box. They left everything else.

My father had a cousin who died at Normandy. There were three kids who were named for him - my brother was one of them.

G wrote: "I love Return of the Soldier!"

We read that here too - and had quite the discussion, as I recall. The thread will still be open, as usual.

What interesting stories . Thanks for sharing .

GL . Your intimacy with your father recollecting his war time experience mirrors mine . My dad only spoke once to me too, after our day on the BattlefieldsTour , But ,soon after , I noticed in my parents cottage a picture of his ship, HMS Ajax, on the stairs and another of my Great Uncle Ponto , who died at Dunkirk .

Jan C . Your cousin's Liberian experience sounds like an Evelyn Waugh novel ! And the whole process of Honouring the Fallen is fascinating .