Secular Sangha: A Secular Buddhist Group discussion

Use this thread to discuss The World as Will and Representation, Volume 1, The World as Will and Representation, Vol 2, and The World as Will and Idea Volume 3 by Arthur Schopenhauer.

While this is technically not a Buddhist book, it arguably was influenced by and influenced Buddhist thought in the West and elsewhere. As such, I think that it can help supplement the study of Buddhist philosophy.

That said, I think that the book stands alone as a good read by itself.

I enjoyed this video on the book and the author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0zmf...

(note: the video closely follows the Schopenhauer content in the group book Great Thinkers: Simple Tools from 60 Great Thinkers to Improve Your Life Today )

I found this conversation on Schopenhauer very informative and interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHMD0...

I found a funny bit of wit at the beginning of the book about what one can do with a book besides read it (note: advice for what to do with a book if you don't read it is in the second paragraph, and context for the statement is in the first paragraph posted below):

[From "Preface To The First Edition" from [book:The World as Will and Representation, Volume 1|19506] by Arthur Schopenhauer, copy and pasted from the online source https://www.gutenberg.org/files/38427... on page #10.]

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"And then, how disagreeably disappointed will many a one be if he finds no mention here of what he believes it is precisely here he ought to look for, because his method of speculation agrees with that of a great living philosopher,1 who has certainly written pathetic books, and who only has the trifling weakness that he takes all he learned and approved before his fifteenth year for inborn ideas of the human mind. Who could stand all this? Therefore my advice is simply to lay down the book.'

"But I fear I shall not escape even thus. The reader who has got
as far as the preface and been stopped by it, has bought the book
for cash, and asks how he is to be indemnified. My last refuge
is now to remind him that he knows how to make use of a book
[xv] in several ways, without exactly reading it. It may fill a gap in
his library as well as many another, where, neatly bound, it will
certainly look well. Or he can lay it on the toilet-table or the
tea-table of some learned lady friend. Or, finally, what certainly
is best of all, and I specially advise it, he can review it."

Here is a piece put out about Schopenhauer by "The Buddhist Society": https://www.thebuddhistsociety.org/pa...

I liked the following defense of parsing out what is true and false from the book:

“It has often been said that we ought to follow the truth even though no utility can be seen in it, because it may have indirect utility which may appear when it is least expected; and I would add to this, that we ought to be just as anxious to discover and to root out all error even when no harm is anticipated from it, because its mischief may be very indirect, and may appear when we do not expect it, for all error has poison at its heart.”

I think that it is hard to read this book without having a decent knowledge of the works of Kant, and having read three of Kant's works myself ( Critique of Pure Reason, Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics, and Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals ) I think that this video covers his thinking pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mltfz...

I recently read Beyond Good and Evil by Friedrich Nietzsche, in which the philosophy of Schopenhauer is critiqued. I found it to be an interesting quick read, and think that it adds interesting insights to this book.

I liked his interpretation of Stoic philosophy in the first book of the first volume, which can be found on pages 134-137 on this online doc.: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/38427...

His interpretation of it reminded me of the Buddhist conception of “desire.” Relevant clips are posted below (though I do want to point out that the message of the following quotations work better in the context of what is said on pages 134-137 as a whole).

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“Therefore Antisthenes says: îµ¹ ºƒ±Ã¸±¹ ½øŽ, · ²£ø«ø½ (aut mentem parandam, aut laqueum. Plut. de stoic. repugn., c. 14), i.e., life is so full of troubles and vexations, that one must either rise above it by means of corrected thoughts, or leave it. It was seen that want and suffering did not directly and of necessity spring from not having, but from desiring to have and not having; that therefore this desire to have is the necessary condition under which alone it becomes a privation not to have and begets pain…”

“It followed from all this that happiness always depends upon the proportion between our claims and what we receive… Therefore Chrysippus says: ¥µ¹ ¶Ã½ º±ƒ½ µº¿µ¹£¹±½ ƒ…½ ÆÅõ¹ Ãź²±¹½ø½ƒ…½ (Stob. Ecl., L. ii. c. 7, p. 134), that is, one ought to live with a due knowledge of the transitory nature of the things of the world…”

“Thus also every keen pleasure is an error and an illusion, for no attained wish can give lasting satisfaction; and, moreover, every possession and every happiness is but lent by chance for an uncertain time, and may therefore be demanded back the next hour. All pain rests on the passing away of such an illusion; thus both arise from defective knowledge; the wise man therefore holds himself equally aloof from joy and sorrow, and no event disturbs his ±ƒ±£±æ¹±.”

Vol 1 Book 3 has the following text that I think lines up well with a goal to meditation:

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https://www.gutenberg.org/files/38427...


"If, raised by the power of the mind, a man relinquishes the
common way of looking at things, gives up tracing, under the
guidance of the forms of the principle of sufficient reason, their
relations to each other, the final goal of which is always a
relation to his own will; if he thus ceases to consider the where,
the when, the why, and the whither of things, and looks simply
and solely at the what; if, further, he does not allow abstract
thought, the concepts of the reason, to take possession of his
consciousness, but, instead of all this, gives the whole power of
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his mind to perception, sinks himself entirely in this, and lets his
whole consciousness be filled with the quiet contemplation of
the natural object actually present, whether a landscape, a tree,
a mountain, a building, or whatever it may be; inasmuch as he
loses himself in this object (to use a pregnant German idiom),
i.e., forgets even his individuality, his will, and only continues
to exist as the pure subject, the clear mirror of the object, so
that it is as if the object alone were there, without any one to
perceive it, and he can no longer separate the perceiver from
the perception, but both have become one, because the whole
consciousness is filled and occupied with one single sensuous
picture; if thus the object has to such an extent passed out of
all relation to something outside it, and the subject out of all
relation to the will, then that which is so known is no longer the
particular thing as such; but it is the Idea, the eternal form, the
immediate objectivity of the will at this grade; and, therefore,
he who is sunk in this perception is no longer individual, for
in such perception the individual has lost himself; but he is
pure, will-less, painless, timeless subject of knowledge."

MJD wrote: "Vol 1 Book 3 has the following text that I think lines up well with a goal to meditation:

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https://www.gutenberg.org/files/38427/3..."

To see objects as they truly are without our experiences imprinted on them? I suppose at that point we can then determine their effect on us?

I find "and he can no longer separate the perceiver from
the perception, but both have become one" interesting, because Thich Nhat Hanh, in the chapter on Right View in The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching: Transforming Suffering into Peace, Joy, and Liberation, mentions the same concept.

John wrote: "MJD wrote: "Vol 1 Book 3 has the following text that I think lines up well with a goal to meditation:

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https://www.gutenberg.org/f..."

It is very interesting reading Schopenhauer in that he uses Western philosophy (mainly Kant and Plato) to reach conclusions that are usually brought up exclusively in Eastern philosophy (note: he does appear to have been aware of some Hindu and Buddhist thought, but he seems to just point Eastern thought as a way to legitimatize what he developed from Western thought).

Volume 1 review:

Just got done with volume 1. For members of this group I would highly recommend books 3 and 4 of volume 1.

Book 3 deals with his view of the value of art, and I think that a lot of what he says lines up well with mindfulness meditation.

Book 4 deals with his views on the value of equanimity and loving-kindness.

Reading volume 2 and want to say that it's a lot easier to read than volume 1. He seems to take a more conversational tone in the second volume.

Reading volume 2 and want to say that it's a lot easier to read than volume 1. He seems to take a more conversational tone in the second volume.

Great Schopenhauer video:

I think that the following video sums up Schopenhauer's comprehensive philosophy very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3VAi...